Isn’t Chapel a civilian?
25th century ranks
- Thread starter Ronald Held
- Start date
2.*
*I really don't know. I just find it amusing this furor over consistency and respect to Trek save for the things we want to change. Those should be changed at all costs!
Caste-based discrimination was prohibited under the Charter for the UFP.
And the military service model for the "Officer-Class" & "Enlisted-Class" has a historical legacy of Caste-based discrimination.
Even if in the 24th century they're mostly friendly towards each other.
The concept of that divide is archaic, where modern Police Service structures manages to work without a seperate Officer/Enlisted corp.
I think StarFleet should want to get rid of that archaic concept and work on a single unified system.
And the vast majority of modern portrayals focus on "StarFleet Officers".
The modern exception is Mile's O'Brien. But he was treated no differently from any officer.
The real question is, does there need to be that divide? It seems silly.
Miles O'Brien could've went to StarFleet Academy and still end up Chief Engineer like Geordi La Forge did.
My question is is it really a divide in a caste sense?
I'll just use my own experience, nonmilitary though it is. In my agency we have Bachelor's level clinical staff, and master's level clinical staff. There is a divide in terms of education. However, there is also a significant overlap in their duties in terms of client care, and they are not treated any differently, beyond what duties they can be assigned. To me, officers and enlisted are a similar place. They are part of the same organization, but training and schooling differentiate based upon job preferences. It's not a divide so much as it is an appropriate allocation of resources based upon training.
That is more of a Doctor / Nurse training route.
Each one has a specified role in Health Care.
VS
Officer = Generalists with Automatic Entry into Management roles
Enlisted = Specialists who do all the Grunt Work
That seems to be not necessary.
Eventually, those who want to enter Management, should apply and train for management positions.
Otherwise, learn to do your speciality until then.
Seems to be rather generalized and not what is shown on Star Trek so I don't think the same divide exists. Your training determines how you move up the chain in the organization. At no point do I think enlisted do "all the grunt work" since we routinely see officers getting the "hands dirty" as it were.
I don't think the divide is as great as our own perceptions make it out to be, nor does Star Trek show this to be a huge difference, beyond time in training, and school attended. Because even officers are not automatically command level officers, and have to do further training for bridge command.
That's how it originated, but that doesn't mean it can't have practical applications in modern or even future times.
But that's pretty much how it already is. We know those in the enlisted ranks can move onto the officer ranks if they wish.
Well she wore no rank stripes but a uniform in TOS. She was a Lieutenant by TAS and also in TMP. By the time of TVH she was a full commander.
The way Simon Tarses explained it in "The Drumhead", the enlisted route doesn't need as much training as the officer route.
PICARD: Did you ever consider applying to the Academy, going the whole route, apply to become an officer?
TARSES: My parents wanted me to. And then I thought about it. I used to sit under this big tree near the parade grounds
PICARD: An elm tree with a circular bench?
TARSES: Yes, that's the one.
PICARD: I spent many an hour there. It was my favourite spot to study.
TARSES: I used to sit under that tree and watch the drills, picture myself an officer. I know that it would have made my mother very happy, but.
PICARD: You didn't do it.
TARSES: No. I was eighteen, and eager. The last thing I wanted to do was spend four years sitting in classrooms. I wanted to be out there, travelling the stars. I didn't want to wait for anything. And now it's done, isn't it? My career in Starfleet is finished.
PICARD: Did you ever consider applying to the Academy, going the whole route, apply to become an officer?
TARSES: My parents wanted me to. And then I thought about it. I used to sit under this big tree near the parade grounds
PICARD: An elm tree with a circular bench?
TARSES: Yes, that's the one.
PICARD: I spent many an hour there. It was my favourite spot to study.
TARSES: I used to sit under that tree and watch the drills, picture myself an officer. I know that it would have made my mother very happy, but.
PICARD: You didn't do it.
TARSES: No. I was eighteen, and eager. The last thing I wanted to do was spend four years sitting in classrooms. I wanted to be out there, travelling the stars. I didn't want to wait for anything. And now it's done, isn't it? My career in Starfleet is finished.
We see them getting their "hands dirty" when it's usually a crisis situation.
I'm sure it isn't as large as it is in the current day. But there realistically doesn't need to be that divide.
Just like and Grunt/Specialist/every day worker can move up to Managerial positions in the modern work place before moving up to a C-Suite position.
But there doesn't need to be a physically seperated Rank Structure or Schooling or term for "Officer/Enlisted" in the future
What's wrong with having one set of ranks, instead of two sets?
Wouldn't that make everybody's life easier?
No one in the shows ever complain about it.
Well, it is a drama so yes, we haven't seen the day to day noncrisis. I'm sure someone will write up a very well done non-dramatic Star Trek show someday.
There will always be a measure of a divide. You have a difference between officers and flag officers. Should we call them just officers and not flag then?
The difference is just a matter of training and degrees. And Starfleet training is valued above most as indicated in Voyager. So, even an enlisted member would still be rated more highly than a civilian of the same training.
It's just what kind of career you decide on. 4 years at the Academy with the perks of being an officer. Or just a couple of months (?) basic training and get on duty faster. And if you're not satisfied with your choice you can still decide to become an officer. Like Rand did for example.
You can call them all officers, but in a police department, a lieutenant or captain still outranks a sergeant.
In SNW she’s mentioned as being on loan from what sounded like a civilian organization. Her uniform in TOS lacked the black collar so may have indicated a civilian. She’s in a blue uniform in”A Quality of Mercy”, so like in TAS, she may have joined Starfleet.
Even in my 26th century head cannon:
Sergeant < Lieutenant < Captain
I've always felt that the rank of "commodore" should be a rank, and that those personnel who held such a rank, would be in charge of a "starbase" or the flag ship of Stafleet. That is why Kirk should have been ranked "Commodore", when resuming command of the Enterprise, post-refit in TMP. The scene would have started out with Kirk overseeing the refit, with Captain Decker as his XO. I mean, that had THREE Captains posted on the Enterprise-A as of TFF...
In SNW, yes.
She doesn't actually join Starfleet until Roger Korby goes missing.
I don't recall a ton of references to Christine's rank in TOS. She was probably an Ensign or LTJG.
In TMP, I'm fairly sure she's a LCDR, and in ST IV she's a full Commander.
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On the contrary, your proposed "no divide" is fundamently and intrinistically far more elitist and divisive than the streamlined "single track, two entry points" system that Starfleet has been shown as having no later than mid-TNG.
Because if you insist that "everyone is a commissioned officer" ie an Ensign or above, then only those who have schooling, connections, intelligence and mindset to spend four years on degree level schooling are allowed to be part of Starfleet, everyone else is excluded because they "aren't good enough".
On the other hand, Starfleet -- recognising that practical, non-academic types can be useful if you play to their strengths -- allows said people to initially take shorter, more focused courses that lead to a specific role, then implicitly gives them the opportunity if they wish to expand on their qualifications and get promotion to the managerial officer ranks in time. In fact, dialogue from Flashback seems to suggest that a motivated "Specialist" can actually gain promotion all the way to Ensign quicker via that route than the Academy (We don't know when Janice went for officer training, but she specifically tells Tuvok that she completed it in three years, rather than the four or more that new entry candidates spend there)
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