Is Starfleet Military?

[fireproof78]

Perhaps one answer is starfleet is more like a coast guard. They have many missions, even have real weapons, with a chain of command and promotion potential.
Starfleet (in my mind) is not a pure military organization. I've served in the USA military over 30 years so I know a little bit. If starfleet were military they'd carry marines (note the show Enterprise) but we don't see them again right? Starfleet's 'army' would wear fatigues instead of colorful sweaters, and their ships would be bristling with weapons instead of science gear.

This argument is quite surface level. For one military uniforms have changed considerably, even since the USA was founded. Are they less military because the uniforms were more colorful.

Two, military isn't just behaviors but legal authority. It's a very important distinction because militaries need legal authority to act on their government's behalf to enforce foreign policy.

As others have noted Starfleet Marines are referenced. But, even if they were not, the actions and authority of Starfleet as presented on screen shows a military organization.

Also, you said that Starfleet isn't a "pure" military...well, what does that even mean?

Yeah, that was quite confusing.

 

[BillJ]

Until someone shows me who the military arm of the Federation is, I have to assume it is Starfleet based on the on-screen evidence.

 

[longhorn355]

Starfleet starships, from the very beginning of Trek, had the power to destroy "half-a-continent" per "The Cage", enough firepower to destroy the habitable surface of a planet per "A Taste of Armageddon", a warp core overload could take out V'ger per Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and an Enterprise-D collision would've been enough to take out a Borg cube per "The Best of Both Worlds II".

Do they give nukes to the Coast Guard or NOAA?

No but the US Army and Marine Corps don’t currently deploy nukes either. The nuclear triad consists of ICBMs and nuclear bombs carried by strategic bombers which are controlled by the Air Force and SLBMs on Navy submarines.

 

[Reverend]

Personally, I'm rather fond of the notion that the debate over whether Starfleet is a military organization or not is one that has gone on in-universe since it's very founding. There's been numerous stories over the years about Starfleet overreach, rogue Admirals compromising the principles of Starfleet a the Federation with black projects and the like, all in the name of security. No doubt there have been Starfleet officers that think Starfleet needs to be a military, and those that do not. David Marcus certain thought it was one, but then he's a civillian scientist working on terrifyingly weaponizable technology in a period of prolonged cold war with a belligerent neighbour. His concerns are certainly not without grounds.
What really decides the reality of the situation is that the aforementioned rogue Admirals are just that; rogues. Militarism has always been portrayed as anathema, and it's pull as something to ever been on guard against.

And if that's not convincing enough, consider this: Starfleet isn't just responsible for the Federation's defence from external threats, it's also materially responsible for it's internal security as well. No free nation in it's right mind let's the army act as the civil police. Indeed most free countries have very strict laws forbidding the military from such things and very tightly narrowing it's legal authority, and for every good reason. It's the kind of thing you'd expect from the Klingons, the Romulans, and the bad old days of the Cardassian Union. But the Federation? No. Obviously not. Therefore the only sane option is that Starfleet is NOT a military, because if it were, it would have been broken up into separate and distinct branches long ago because the Federation Council aren't morons.

Until someone shows me who the military arm of the Federation is, I have to assume it is Starfleet based on the on-screen evidence.

There's a fundamental assumption in that statement; let's see who can spot it!

 

[The Wormhole]

Neither ever flew aircraft full of passengers to exotic locations nor had to negotiate with hostiles after a crash in the desert, as Roddenberry did.

I believe the point Tallguy was making was that it was Gene Coon and DC Fontana who wrote the episodes about the Enterprise ferrying diplomats or other dignitaries to conferences or other matters. Indeed, much of the actual worldbuilding that went on in TOS was done by Gene Coon and DC Fontana, in fact it was those two who actually created and developed the Federation itself. Roddenberry came up with the concept of TOS, mainly having it be about the adventures of a starship exploring space in the future, but it was the other writers on TOS, notably Coon and Fontana who actually fleshed that idea out and gave us the show we watched.

their ships would be bristling with weapons instead of science gear.

Would they though? After all, Yesterday's Enterprise takes place in an alternate timeline where Starfleet really is a military and the Enterprise really is a warship, but the Enterprise still has as many weapons and science gear as it does in the Prime Universe. They even still have cetacean ops. Hell, prior to Lower Decks, Yesterday's Enterprise was the only onscreen reference to cetacean ops by name in the entire franchise. Hell, even the militant and fascist Mirror Universe has its Starfleet ships carrying the same amount of weapons and science gear as their Prime Universe counterparts.

I think the fact there comes a point where we just have to admit the Trek franchise just doesn't know how to properly depict a military rather than jumping up and down pointing at the inaccuracies as "proof" that Starfleet isn't military.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And if that's not convincing enough, consider this: Starfleet isn't just responsible for the Federation's defence from external threats, it's also materially responsible for it's internal security as well.

No it isn't.

Internal security is the purview of the Federation Security Agency, which is a civilian organization.

 

[Reverend]

No it isn't.

Internal security is the purview of the Federation Security Agency, which is a civilian organization.

Any internal terrorist threat has always been portrayed as being a Starfleet problem. Federation Security has show up a mere handful of times, and they seem mostly concerned with domestic intelligence gathering, strictly local concerns, and civil incarceration, and even then it's entirely-on-the-ground. Actual policing on an inter-planetary scale has always been shown to be within Starfleet's purview.

 

[Sci]

And if that's not convincing enough, consider this: Starfleet isn't just responsible for the Federation's defence from external threats, it's also materially responsible for it's internal security as well. No free nation in it's right mind let's the army act as the civil police. Indeed most free countries have very strict laws forbidding the military from such things and very tightly narrowing it's legal authority, and for every good reason. It's the kind of thing you'd expect from the Klingons, the Romulans, and the bad old days of the Cardassian Union. But the Federation? No. Obviously not. Therefore the only sane option is that Starfleet is NOT a military, because if it were, it would have been broken up into separate and distinct branches long ago because the Federation Council aren't morons.

There's a fundamental assumption in that statement; let's see who can spot it!

What makes you think that legally categorizing the agency responsible for defending the state from external threats in times of war as "not a military" would somehow magically make it any less dangerous to give that agency responsibility for internal security as well? Even if you claim it's magically not a military, the operational pressures that incentivize real-life military forces to become abusive when given responsibility for internal security would still be in place.

Any internal terrorist threat has always been portrayed as being a Starfleet problem.

We have only rarely seen internal terrorists threats, and most of those have been rogue Starfleet officers.

Federation Security has show up a mere handful of times, and they seem mostly concerned with domestic intelligence gathering, strictly local concerns, and civil incarceration, and even then it's entirely-on-the-ground.

... yes, that is the definition of internal security.

Actual policing on an inter-planetary scale has always been shown to be within Starfleet's purview.

What interplanetary policing have we seen? How are you defining "policing?"

 

[BillJ]

No but the US Army and Marine Corps don’t currently deploy nukes either. The nuclear triad consists of ICBMs and nuclear bombs carried by strategic bombers which are controlled by the Air Force and SLBMs on Navy submarines.

And we have no doubt they are military, as they fight the wars on the ground, just like Starfleet. See: "The Siege of AR-558".

I imagine that any member of the US Armed Forces has to be ready to fight a war at all times. You just can't snap your fingers and turn people from scientists to warriors on Tuesday, it has to be ingrained in them, which is why you see so many troops having trouble readjusting to civilian life.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I imagine that any member of the US Armed Forces has to be ready to fight a war at all times. You just can't snap your fingers and turn people from scientists to warriors on Tuesday, it has to be ingrained in them, which is why you see so many troops having trouble readjusting to civilian life.

And some of them do so, while also being scientists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerographer's_mate

Construction specialists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Navy_ratings#Construction_ratings

Medical personnel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_corpsman

Cooks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culinary_specialist_(United_States_Navy)

Paralegals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalman

Musicians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musician_(United_States_Navy)

Sectaries and Administrators:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman_(United_States_Navy)

Marine Safety and Environmental Health experts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Science_Technician

I could probably cite at least a dozen more if I went digging, but IMO the point that "combat arms" (the main people that you're taking about, and that Starfleet doesn't really have except possibly as wartime reserves) aren't the be-all and end-all of "the military", though all of the above have roles to play "in the fight" to one degree or another.

IMO, Bob Fletcher was probably onto the right idea with the Office of Inspector General Special Forces (aka Starfleet Security Special Forces) as the only standing "combat unit". Likely akin to FBI HRT or the Coastie's MSST/MRST units (or maybe Royal Marines Commandos at a push), certainly not akin to the modern MEU-centric US Marine Corps.

 

[BillJ]

And some of them do so, while also being scientists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerographer's_mate

Construction specialists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Navy_ratings#Construction_ratings

Medical personnel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_corpsman

Cooks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culinary_specialist_(United_States_Navy)

Paralegals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalman

Musicians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musician_(United_States_Navy)

Sectaries and Administrators:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman_(United_States_Navy)

Marine Safety and Environmental Health experts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Science_Technician

I could probably cite at least a dozen more if I went digging, but IMO the point that "combat arms" (the main people that you're taking about, and that Starfleet doesn't really have except possibly as wartime reserves) aren't the be-all and end-all of "the military", though all of the above have roles to play "in the fight" to one degree or another.

IMO, Bob Fletcher was probably onto the right idea with the Office of Inspector General Special Forces (aka Starfleet Security Special Forces) as the only standing "combat unit". Likely akin to FBI HRT or the Coastie's MSST/MRST units (or maybe Royal Marines Commandos at a push), certainly not akin to the modern MEU-centric US Marine Corps.

There are support personnel, no doubt about it. You don't move or feed tens (or hundreds) of thousands of troops without them.

But you don't send in people that have no idea what they're doing, which is essentially what people are trying to make Starfleet out to be. They aren't an organization of all scientists and explorers until war breaks out. That does a disservice to Federation defense and Starfleet personnel.

If you're not the military, why have war games? See: "The Ultimate Computer", "Peak Performance".

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If you're not the military, why have war games? See: "The Ultimate Computer", "Peak Performance".

Because, per the latter defence of the Federation is the remit of Starfleet.

Before around 1900, defence of nations from maritime threats (the main parallel to Starfleet outside of policing) wasn't a "military" matter (only combat arms were considered "military") and de facto or actually non-military units do that worldwide to this day.

 

[longhorn355]

If you're not the military, why have war games? See: "The Ultimate Computer", "Peak Performance".

It should be noted that for hundreds of years, there were privateers. These were privately-owned vessels that were crewed by civilians which were granted letters of marque by a sovereign to engage other nations’ vessels in warfare. There is historical precedence for combat training utilizing a ship without being in the military.

Interestingly, the US Constitution authorizes Congress to grant letters of marque.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

True, though as I noted, even the professional navy such as it was, wasn't considered "the military" back then.

Actually, privateers might have been closer to "the military" than the Navy in some ways in those days as money would have changed hands in that case, which is somewhat analogus to the military policy of "buying a commission" whereas Navy ranks were officially by connections and merit.

 

[Imaus]

@rondo, there are in fact Starfleet Marines.

- In ST V, when Kirk and crew go down to Nimbus III to stop Sybok, they are accompanied by Marines. They're the ones in dark blue turtlenecks.

- And of course COLONEL West in ST VI.

Gene Roddenberry even wanted the Enterprise to have a platoon of Starfleet Marines in TOS but he never got the chance to do it.

Also, you said that Starfleet isn't a "pure" military...well, what does that even mean?

Those aren't Marines, those are a sort of Strike Team from the tactical department, more analogous to the Navy's old Blue shirts Naval Infantry, drawn up to fight from whatever the ship can spare from its lower ratings most like. (Though Chekov calls them 'Federation Forces', this is most likely just a umbrella term much like how a USN ship landing blueshirts is technically landing 'American forces').

 

[XCV330]

There are support personnel, no doubt about it. You don't move or feed tens (or hundreds) of thousands of troops without them.

But you don't send in people that have no idea what they're doing, which is essentially what people are trying to make Starfleet out to be. They aren't an organization of all scientists and explorers until war breaks out. That does a disservice to Federation defense and Starfleet personnel.

If you're not the military, why have war games? See: "The Ultimate Computer", "Peak Performance".

The more purely scientific staff might have a lower level of competency at combat oriented skills, however. Lorca had to work hard to get the Discovery crew ramped up to fight in the Klingon War, since it had been a purely science vessel.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Those aren't Marines, those are a sort of Strike Team from the tactical department, more analogous to the Navy's old Blue shirts Naval Infantry, drawn up to fight from whatever the ship can spare from its lower ratings most like.

Somewhere between VBSS and SEALs I'd say, maybe even DEVGRU... certainly not the low-rank enlisted ad hoc Naval Security Force that you seem to be suggesting IMO.

 

[The Wormhole]

Those aren't Marines, those are a sort of Strike Team from the tactical department, more analogous to the Navy's old Blue shirts Naval Infantry, drawn up to fight from whatever the ship can spare from its lower ratings most like. (Though Chekov calls them 'Federation Forces', this is most likely just a umbrella term much like how a USN ship landing blueshirts is technically landing 'American forces').

The Behind the Scenes material for TFF does refer to them as Marines, though granted that did not make it onscreen at all.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Behind the Scenes material for TFF does refer to them as Marines, though granted that did not make it onscreen at all.

Still, though, a Colonel appearing in the very next film, does seem fairly definitive.

Navies don't have Colonels, so what's the next closest thing? Marines, of course.

Easy peasy.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Navies don't have Colonels, so what's the next closest thing? Marines, of course.

More likely to be something like the Royal Marines Commandos or MARSOC than the conventional US Marines IMO, but I don't outright disagree.