Military involves legal authority not just activity.
Is Starfleet Military?
- Thread starter Prometheus59650
- Start date
Yes, there are military units whose primary function is not combat or offensive.
United States Naval Construction Battalions, better known as the Navy Seabees, form the U.S. Naval Construction Force (NCF). ... Naval Construction Battalions were conceived of as replacements for civilian construction companies in combat zones after the attack on Pearl Harbor. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea...abees have many,Works and USN diving commands.
Combat support hospitals are units whose primary function is medical. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_support_hospital
As mentioned numerously in this topic, the National Guard and the Coast Guard are very active in non-combat roles. USCG are involved in more often involved in police activities than military combat.
Here is an article about noncombat troops in 2010. https://foreignpolicy.com/2010/08/03/whats-the-difference-between-combat-and-noncombat-troops/
The distinction whet Starfleet is military or isn't sounds just as political. Maybe it was a PR spin. Maybe it was baked into a peace treaty, but I doubt it because that sounds like the Federation, like Japan, list a war and had to capitulate to the terms of their victorious opponent or the unruly populace. Maybe they appeased a member state that threatened to leave or never join the Federation so long as they had a military.
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I believe the name of that state is "Fandora" with Rodberrian as the president.
When did this taboo about calling Starfleet a military start? Definitely after TOS ended.
I'm curious if anyone can answer this, but am I right in understanding that the "Starfleet is not a military" idea comes out of Roddenberry's views circa the middle of the movie era (where Nicolas Meyer and Harve Bennett had fully embraced Starfleet as a space navy) and the beginning of TNG and largely comes from his Utopian views of how humanity had evolved past conflict (at least with each other or seeking it out)?
I do know Majel Barrett objected to the Dominion War arc on DS9, with Ron Moore and Ira Steven Behr having to push against Berman to serialize the war to the extent they did.
Per Memory Alpha:
I do know Majel Barrett objected to the Dominion War arc on DS9, with Ron Moore and Ira Steven Behr having to push against Berman to serialize the war to the extent they did.
Per Memory Alpha:
The military side of Starfleet began being downplayed in the 1970s when Phase II, which later became TMP was being developed, though this was more a reflection of the politics of the time, the military wasn't very popular in the US because of Vietnam. However it was not until TWOK was in production that Roddenberry outright made the claim that Starfleet isn't military, though that was just Roddenberry in a mood because Paramount removed him from authority over the movies after TMP so he launched a smear against Harve Bennett and Nick Meyer. Truth be told, I'm certain they could have depicted Starfleet as an actual Future NASA, and Roddenberry would then attack them claiming Starfleet is a military as he was that desperate to find a way to discredit them.
By the time TNG came around, Roddenberry had suddenly decided he hated the military for some reason and even went so far to ban novel author Diane Carey from writing any more Trek novels just because she dedicated a TNG novel she wrote to a friend of hers who was killed in military service, which Roddenberry claimed was "glorifying the military" and that "Star Trek is not about that." That ban would not be lifted until after Roddenberry died. Curiously enough, a TNG S1 episode written by Roddenberry himself (Hide and Q) actually does refer to Starfleet as a military.
I always go to GR's The Motion Picture novel for the best indicator of his attitudes to Trek and there are several instances where Kirk very much has defense rather than exploration on his mind. For instance when Vejur first attacks the Enterprise:
"Kirk’s mind flashed the thought that if he lived, he must discuss the tactical implications of this shock effect with Heihachiro Nogura. The shocking surprise of being suddenly hit in space with a deafening sound like this was worth considering in future weapons-defense designs."
Roddenberry was still very interested in depicting Kirk at a military man of action in his then current iteration of Star Trek as late as 1979.
Ha! THIS.
Well, (if it's the line that I found) it's Q that does. "These are the complaints of a closed mind too accustomed to military privileges." This one? Or is there something else? I'd see that as GR using Q to argue the contrary (as he did in Farpoint).
Indeed, of the USCG's eleven statutory missions, only one of them is specifically military (and even that is nominally conducted by police units in countries that don't have a military)* and most of them are more aligned with policing or national security functions.
Non-homeland security missions
- Ice operations, including the International Ice Patrol
- Living marine resources (fisheries law enforcement)
- Marine environmental protection
- Marine safety
- Aids to navigation
- Search and rescue
Starfleet does equivalents of most of the above, with possible universal exception of "migrant interdiction" and "drug interdiction" is probably highly variable by sector and era.
So, even if the Federation does not consider Starfleet military, that doesn't mean outsiders agree. Carol and David Marcus (Federation citizens) viewed Starfleet as a military.
My contention is that, in universe, this political PR redefinition of Starfleet as being "not military" happened between the TOS and the TNG eras. Maybe a result of the Tomed incident?
Do the Romulans and Klingons and Cardassians view Starfleet as a military?
Damn right they do.
So that could make Starfleet partially military. =)
If Starfleet is only partially a military, does that mean that it only partially has a system of courts-martial that only have the partial right to enforce a system of laws upon its members on pain of partial imprisonment?
Because no other employer than a military gets to throw you in prison for violating company policy.
Thank you! I learned something new today.
Yeah, that's the one I'm referring to. The way I see it, Q is an all-knowing omnipotent being and Picard does not contradict him, so I look at it as sort of confirmation that Starfleet is a military. Indeed, it is curious, throughout the franchise, there are two people who definitely refer to Starfleet as a military, Q and Federation President Jaresh-Inyo. I find it telling that despite all the characters who claim Starfleet isn't a military, the two who have referred to it as a military are the omnipotent being and the Federation President. Two characters who would definitely know what they're talking about on the matter.
Starfleet is the one force they've never been able to defeat. Do you think three of the races who take an enormous amount of pride in their militaries are going to think of the organization who constantly bests them as anything other than a military? It sure would hurt their tough guy cred if they tell others "our fearsome military is constantly defeated by pacifist explorers."
And yet he's still a twit. Especially in his early goings.
No on both counts.
Q is one of the worst aspects of TNG, partially due to his twit nature.
Yes but as it turns out being John DeLancie is a tremendous advantage.
Mileage, etc.
Thank you! I learned something new today.
You're welcome.
Personally, I consider any day I learn something new to be a good day.
Since there’s contradictory statements by various characters as to Starfleet being a military and not being a military, perhaps an in universe explanation is that Starfleet operates similarly to the US Public Health Service and NOAA Commissioned Corps.
Each entity is considered 1 of the 8 US Uniformed Services with the armed forces constituting the other 6. The President can by order militarize the PHS and NOAA Commissioned Corps.
33 U.S.C. § 3061 states:
The President may, whenever in the judgment of the President a sufficient national emergency exists, transfer to the service and jurisdiction of a military department such vessels, equipment, stations, and officers of the Administration as the President considers to be in the best interest of the country. An officer of the Administration transferred under this section, shall, while under the jurisdiction of a military department, have proper military status and shall be subject to the laws, regulations, and orders for the government of the Army, Navy, or Air Force, as the case may be, insofar as the same may be applicable to persons whose retention permanently in the military service of the United States is not contemplated by law.
42 U.S.C. § 217 states:
In time of war, or of emergency involving the national defense proclaimed by the President, he may by Executive order declare the commissioned corps of the Service to be a military service. Upon such declaration, and during the period of such war or such emergency or such part thereof as the President shall prescribe, the commissioned corps (a) shall constitute a branch of the land and naval forces of the United States, (b) shall, to the extent prescribed by regulations of the President, be subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. § 801 et seq., and (c) shall continue to operate as part of the Service except to the extent that the President may direct as Commander in Chief.
The Federation President may be able to militarize Starfleet in a legal sense when war or other emergencies exist because there is no other military entity. This may be done so that Starfleet vessels can preemptively attack enemy vessels, raid installations, take prisoners of war, and be recognized as prisoners of war when captured, etc. This would also explain in universe how some Starfleet officers think that they are not the military because in it’s normal state, Starfleet is not considered as such but can be under certain circumstances.
Each entity is considered 1 of the 8 US Uniformed Services with the armed forces constituting the other 6. The President can by order militarize the PHS and NOAA Commissioned Corps.
33 U.S.C. § 3061 states:
The President may, whenever in the judgment of the President a sufficient national emergency exists, transfer to the service and jurisdiction of a military department such vessels, equipment, stations, and officers of the Administration as the President considers to be in the best interest of the country. An officer of the Administration transferred under this section, shall, while under the jurisdiction of a military department, have proper military status and shall be subject to the laws, regulations, and orders for the government of the Army, Navy, or Air Force, as the case may be, insofar as the same may be applicable to persons whose retention permanently in the military service of the United States is not contemplated by law.
42 U.S.C. § 217 states:
In time of war, or of emergency involving the national defense proclaimed by the President, he may by Executive order declare the commissioned corps of the Service to be a military service. Upon such declaration, and during the period of such war or such emergency or such part thereof as the President shall prescribe, the commissioned corps (a) shall constitute a branch of the land and naval forces of the United States, (b) shall, to the extent prescribed by regulations of the President, be subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. § 801 et seq., and (c) shall continue to operate as part of the Service except to the extent that the President may direct as Commander in Chief.
The Federation President may be able to militarize Starfleet in a legal sense when war or other emergencies exist because there is no other military entity. This may be done so that Starfleet vessels can preemptively attack enemy vessels, raid installations, take prisoners of war, and be recognized as prisoners of war when captured, etc. This would also explain in universe how some Starfleet officers think that they are not the military because in it’s normal state, Starfleet is not considered as such but can be under certain circumstances.
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