Seems like a lot of work considering how often Starfleet finds itself in conflict.
Is Starfleet Military?
- Thread starter Prometheus59650
- Start date
But then under such a scenario, how can Starfleet operate a system of courts-martial and imprison those of its members who disobey orders when the Federation is not at war and Starfleet has not been transferred to a military department? No one was at war when Ro Laren or Tom Paris were sentenced to Starfleet prisons.
Here's a list of desired capabilities for new US Navy cruisers from an 1881 Navy Department report:
- Surveying.
- Deep sea sounding.
- The protection and advancement of American commerce.
- Exploration.
- The protection of American life and property endangered by wars between foreign countries.
- Service in support of American policy in matters where foreign governments are concerned.
- Jan 1857: Warship sent to Greek archipelago at request of Foreign Office to prevent plunder of wrecks.
- Mar 1857: Warship sent at request of Colonial Office to the Khuriya Muriya Islands to maintain order in the guano trade.
- Jan 1858: Warship sent at request of Foreign Office to transport ambassador of Siam to Britain.
- Jan 1858: Warship sent at request of the Foreign Office to transport miners from Panama to Vancouver.
- Feb 1858: Warship sent at request of the governor of New South Wales to the New Hebrides to investigate a murder.
- Feb 1858: Warship sent at request of the Board of Trade to assist in construction of a lighthouse at Cay Lobos, Bahamas.
- Apr 1858: Warship sent at request of the High Court of Admiralty to investigate collusive wrecking in the Bahamas.
- May 1858: Warship stationed off British Columbia at governor's request to maintain order amid "excitement" over discovery of gold.
- Sept 1858: Gunboat sent up the Hondo river at the request of the Colonial office to protect a Mr Seymour, a British subject.
- Feb 1859: Two warships assigned at request of the governor of New South Wales for general protection of the colony and transport of troops and mail.
- Mar 1859: Warship sent at request of the Foreign Office to monitor blockade of Ecuador by Peru.
- May 1859: Warship sent at request of the Foreign Office to Valencia, Spain, to counter "illegal proceedings" by the Spanish guarda costa.
- May 1859: Warship sent at request of the governor of the Bahamas to suppress illegal guano trade by U.S. vessels.
- Mar 1860: Request by the Cotton Supply Association of Manchester to send a warship to protect trade on the Niger river refused, but the Admiralty will send a vessel if specific circumstances warrant.
- May 1860: Warship sent at request of the Colonial Office to the Torres Strait to search for shipwreck survivors.
- Jan 1861: Warship sent at request of Colonial Office to check on the condition of distant Mauritius dependencies.
- Mar 1861: Warship sent at request of the Trustees of the British Museum to Libya to assist in antiquities research.
- May 1861: Warship sent at request of the governor of Singapore to assist in mediating a conflict between Malaysian chiefs.
10 U.S. Code § 802 - Art. 2. Persons subject to this chapter
(a)The following persons are subject to this chapter:
…
(8) Members of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Public Health Service, and other organizations, when assigned to and serving with the armed forces.
Just as the Congress has decided when the NOAA and PHS Commissioned Corps is subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the Federation might prescribe that only under certain circumstances should their Uniform Code of Justice (as it was called in TNG: The Drumhead) apply to insubordination. In real life, many NOAA and PHS commissioned officers are not currently serving alongside military forces and as such are not subject to the UCMJ while some others are. The Federation might state that only such Starfleet members assigned to certain duties are subject to courts martial.
We clearly saw Worf disobey Captain Picard’s order to return to duty after being on a leave of absence in TNG: Redemption. He resigned his commission on the spot and everyone accepted it. I don’t know how it works in real life but can a military officer simply refuse an order from his commanding officer by resigning his commission and escape being criminally prosecuted for insubordination?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_and_Clark_Expedition
The Lewis and Clark Expedition, also known as the Corps of Discovery Expedition, was the United States expedition to cross the newly acquired western portion of the country after the Louisiana Purchase. The Corps of Discovery was a select group of U.S. Army and civilian volunteers under the command of Captain Meriwether Lewis and his close friend Second Lieutenant William Clark. Clark and 30 members set out from Camp Dubois (Camp Wood), Illinois, on May 14, 1804, met Lewis and ten other members of the group in St. Charles, Missouri, then went up the Missouri River. The expedition crossed the Continental Divide of the Americas near the Lemhi Pass, eventually coming to the Columbia River, and the Pacific Ocean in 1805. The return voyage began on March 23, 1806, at Fort Clatsop, Oregon, and ended on September 23 of the same year.
The Corps of Discovery was a specially established unit of the United States Army which formed the nucleus of the Lewis and Clark Expedition that took place between May 1804 and September 1806. The Corps was led jointly by Captain Meriwether Lewis and Second Lieutenant William Clark. Commissioned by President Thomas Jefferson, the Corps' objectives were scientific and commercial – to study the area's plants, animal life, and geography, and to learn how the Louisiana Purchase could be exploited economically.[1] Aside from its military composition, the Corps' additional personnel included scouts, boatmen, and civilians.
On its two-year expedition through the Great Plains and the Rocky Mountains, the Corps encountered more than two dozen Native American tribes. Modern research now acknowledges that without such contact or help, the Corps of Discovery would have struggled to have completed their journey.
The Lewis and Clark Expedition, also known as the Corps of Discovery Expedition, was the United States expedition to cross the newly acquired western portion of the country after the Louisiana Purchase. The Corps of Discovery was a select group of U.S. Army and civilian volunteers under the command of Captain Meriwether Lewis and his close friend Second Lieutenant William Clark. Clark and 30 members set out from Camp Dubois (Camp Wood), Illinois, on May 14, 1804, met Lewis and ten other members of the group in St. Charles, Missouri, then went up the Missouri River. The expedition crossed the Continental Divide of the Americas near the Lemhi Pass, eventually coming to the Columbia River, and the Pacific Ocean in 1805. The return voyage began on March 23, 1806, at Fort Clatsop, Oregon, and ended on September 23 of the same year.
The Corps of Discovery was a specially established unit of the United States Army which formed the nucleus of the Lewis and Clark Expedition that took place between May 1804 and September 1806. The Corps was led jointly by Captain Meriwether Lewis and Second Lieutenant William Clark. Commissioned by President Thomas Jefferson, the Corps' objectives were scientific and commercial – to study the area's plants, animal life, and geography, and to learn how the Louisiana Purchase could be exploited economically.[1] Aside from its military composition, the Corps' additional personnel included scouts, boatmen, and civilians.
On its two-year expedition through the Great Plains and the Rocky Mountains, the Corps encountered more than two dozen Native American tribes. Modern research now acknowledges that without such contact or help, the Corps of Discovery would have struggled to have completed their journey.
But there's never any indication that only some Starfleet officers are subject to the Uniform Code of Justice. We always see it framed as something every member of Starfleet is accountable to.
Not necessarily, but in this circumstance, the Federation clearly wanted to keep the Klingon Empire as an ally and wanted Gowron to win. So I think it's likely that Starfleet decided not to press the issue so as to avoid alienating Gowron's faction if he should win the civil war.
It's best not to look at situations like that as proof in this argument since being a TV show, Star Trek is going to have dramatic plot details like this which may not be how something would work in a real life military. TV shows and movies that are set in actual militaries have their characters acting all the time in a manner which might actually get them reprimanded or worse in an actual military but they get away with it because it's a TV show and it's entertaining the audience.
In TNG: The Measure of a Man, Data is ordered to transfer under Maddox’s command. Data then resigns to avoid this. The following is from the script:
[JAG office]
PHILLIPA: My God, twice in as many days.
PICARD: I need your help.
PHILLIPA: An historic moment.
PICARD: I have been trying to make sense of this gobbledygook, but it's beyond me. The fact is, my android officer, Data, is being transferred compulsorily to be made part of a highly dangerous, ill-conceived experiment, and I want it stopped.
PHILLIPA: He can refuse to undergo the procedure, but we can't stop the transfer.
PICARD: Once this Maddox has got control of Data, anything could happen. I don't trust that man.
PHILLIPA: We agree to certain risks when we join Starfleet.
PICARD: Yes. Acceptable risks, justified risks, but I can't accept this. It's unjustified. It's unfair. He has rights.
PHILLIPA: All this passion over a machine?
PICARD: Don't start. This is important to me. Is there an option?
PHILLIPA: There is always an option. He can resign.
It’s clear that Data could resign to avoid following the order. A captain-ranked JAG officer says as much. We’ve also seen it done before. Now how can we reconcile this with some Starfleet officers being court-martialed for insubordination? The only way I can see is that the UCJ sometimes applies and sometimes it does not. Perhaps it only applies when Starfleet members are on tactical missions or are on a vessel so far out of reach of normal channels of the administration of justice that a commanding officer can summarily punish subordinates under the UCJ.
Alternately, maybe the UCJ contains provisos that allow for resignation of one's commission outside of combat. That doesn't mean the UCJ doesn't still apply; it just means the Starfleet UCJ is more lenient than real-life uniform codes.
Once they introduced the JAG corps into Star Trek, i was like alright where’s Commander Rabb and Colonel MacKenzie?
Which is pretty consistent with how Trek presents itself, depending on the needs of the plot. Sometimes the codes are strict, and sometimes just get a disapproving glance.
Still waiting.
Even though Starfleet's JAG Corps was introduced in Star Trek close to thirty years before those characters ever existed?
I think Starfleet was influenced by various elements in Gene Roddenberry's life: his time in the Army Air Force as a B-17 pilot, followed by a stint as a civilian pilot for Pan Am, and finally his later duties as a Los Angeles police officer. In each of these endeavors, Roddenberry experienced versions of the chain-of-command, but I think his Pan Am experience influenced Star Trek's "Wagon Train to the Stars" aspect the most. As Captain of his Pan Am "ship", Roddenberry flew to various exotic destinations and had responsibilities not just to a crew but passengers, too. I'm convinced he remembered his days with Pan Am when imagining Capt. Kirk ferrying diplomats to a UFP peace conference.
Surely that was more Gene Coon and D.C. Fontana?
N
Neither ever flew aircraft full of passengers to exotic locations nor had to negotiate with hostiles after a crash in the desert, as Roddenberry did.
Perhaps one answer is starfleet is more like a coast guard. They have many missions, even have real weapons, with a chain of command and promotion potential.
Starfleet (in my mind) is not a pure military organization. I've served in the USA military over 30 years so I know a little bit. If starfleet were military they'd carry marines (note the show Enterprise) but we don't see them again right? Starfleet's 'army' would wear fatigues instead of colorful sweaters, and their ships would be bristling with weapons instead of science gear.
Starfleet (in my mind) is not a pure military organization. I've served in the USA military over 30 years so I know a little bit. If starfleet were military they'd carry marines (note the show Enterprise) but we don't see them again right? Starfleet's 'army' would wear fatigues instead of colorful sweaters, and their ships would be bristling with weapons instead of science gear.
Starfleet starships, from the very beginning of Trek, had the power to destroy "half-a-continent" per "The Cage", enough firepower to destroy the habitable surface of a planet per "A Taste of Armageddon", a warp core overload could take out V'ger per Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and an Enterprise-D collision would've been enough to take out a Borg cube per "The Best of Both Worlds II".
Do they give nukes to the Coast Guard or NOAA?
@rondo, there are in fact Starfleet Marines.
- In ST V, when Kirk and crew go down to Nimbus III to stop Sybok, they are accompanied by Marines. They're the ones in dark blue turtlenecks.
- And of course COLONEL West in ST VI.
Gene Roddenberry even wanted the Enterprise to have a platoon of Starfleet Marines in TOS but he never got the chance to do it.
Also, you said that Starfleet isn't a "pure" military...well, what does that even mean?
- In ST V, when Kirk and crew go down to Nimbus III to stop Sybok, they are accompanied by Marines. They're the ones in dark blue turtlenecks.
- And of course COLONEL West in ST VI.
Gene Roddenberry even wanted the Enterprise to have a platoon of Starfleet Marines in TOS but he never got the chance to do it.
Also, you said that Starfleet isn't a "pure" military...well, what does that even mean?
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