Does the current state of Star Trek say anything about what fans want?

[SalyutBuran]

Huh? The job of any popular TV show is to branch out. That is one way that studios can recoup costs. Also, I've watched the first two seasons of The Mandolorian and don't see where he's been marginalized.

Think about what I'm saying, that is why, and I'm telling you why it'd predictably fail.

They saw that branch out money, and they devalued the golden goose in the process.

Mando is "The Mandalorian". One of the main things they did was expand the existing franchise without having to use light sabers or tie fighters.

He was the last of his kind, on his own. He finds a unique being and only he can protect him etc due to his unique skill set.


Then they made him "not actually the last just one of the many, in fact he's not great, mysterious or particularly interesting just a random guy in a suit". Kara Dune didn't cause that, but Boba Fett and Katie Sackhoff did.

 

[Sci]

At the end of the day no matter what job the person does, no matter what they look like, you respect a character because they're organized, honest, hard working, thoughtful, disciplined etc.

In real life? Sure. In fiction? Absolfuckinglutely not.

One of my top five favorite characters in Star Trek is Elim Garak. I assure you -- being organized, honest, hard-working, thoughtful, or disciplined has nothing to do with why I like him as a character.

Picard is the perfect example of someone who is only interested because of his discipline.

His discipline is only ever interesting when it's presented as a contrast to an area in which he is deeply inadequate.

When you see star trek whether or not you consciously or subconsciously think it out,

Ah, so you do admit that you can have implicit biases without realizing it?

some part of you want's to be in the captains chair.

Maybe you do, but there are plenty of people out there who don't watch Star Trek for the "being-in-command" power fantasy. That is a very subjective reason to enjoy a show.

 

[SalyutBuran]

Isn't one of the common complaints about Book of Boba Fett that halfway through it essentially abandoned Boba Fett and became season 2.5 of The Mandalorian?

Yes and that's a perfect illustration of how bad the dysfunction was/is at disney. They figure out half way through production how stupid of an idea the show was and they cook out some damage control.

 

[The Wormhole]

Yes and that's a perfect illustration of how bad the dysfunction was/is at disney. They figure out half way through production how stupid of an idea the show was and they cook out some damage control.

You're only half right in that The Book of Boba Fett had to be reworked midway through production. But it was not due to "dysfunction at Disney" but rather because the pandemic threw a wrench in the plans they had for Mando Season 3 and Book of Boba Fett to run parallel and join together.

 

[Set Harth]

Then they made him "not actually the last just one of the many, in fact he's not great, mysterious or particularly interesting just a random guy in a suit". Kara Dune didn't cause that, but Boba Fett and Katie Sackhoff did.

There are other CotW with or without Sackhoff. He was never the last.

 

[SalyutBuran]

In real life? Sure. In fiction? Absolfuckinglutely not.

One of my top five favorite characters in Star Trek is Elim Garak. I assure you -- being organized, honest, hard-working, thoughtful, or disciplined has nothing to do with why I like him as a character.

Respect is not like. I don't like Garak but I respect him. Exactly because he maintains a nice little tailor shop, he's competent at an absurd level of things, his hole internal motivation is to please his father, he's incredibly disciplined and motivated etc. You might not describe him that way, but it's largely there.

Not that his conscientiousness is really a key part of it, he's a B character, not the guy driving the main social environment of the show.

You'd get more mileage with quark, who is at best average.

His discipline is only ever interesting when it's presented as a contrast to an area in which he is deeply inadequate.

It's "not wow he's so disciplined", "it's wow I can't believe how much that loss of control as locutus hurt him

Ah, so you do admit that you can have implicit biases without realizing it?

Pardon? When on earth did I say I didn't? Everyone has internal biases, figuring them out is part of life.

Every other week I learn something that challenges my biases, it's part of why I like science fiction in the first place.

But engaging in a rigid ideology based on easy to photocopy narratives is a fast way you'll never figure out anything, because part of the awareness is based on the narratives other's aren't aware.

Maybe you do, but there are plenty of people out there who don't watch Star Trek for the "being-in-command" power fantasy. That is a very subjective reason to enjoy a show.

It's not just a being in command fantasy it's broader than that. It's about being in a room where people share motivations. I don't want to win the superbowl but I'd like to be on a team with people who do.

 

[fireproof78]

no matter what they look like, you respect a character because they're honest,

Yup. Honesty is interesting. Especially honesty with emotions. That's all.

Picard is the perfect example of someone who is only interested because of his discipline. The

No. Picard actively made me want to turn TNG off. His discipline was arrogant, his treatment of others stiff, his condescension apparent.

Maybe you do, but there are plenty of people out there who don't watch Star Trek for the "being-in-command" power fantasy. That is a very subjective reason to enjoy a show.

Indeed. I suspect the power fantasy appeals to many who feel that they have limited power in their lives.

 

[The Wormhole]

I don't want to win the superbowl but I'd like to be on a team with people who do.

Then you do want to win the Super Bowl.

 

[cooleddie74]

I want to enjoy what I like without it being micro-analyzed half to death by people who think the industry statistics and other numbers can tell you if a show is good or not. To me that's winning a game and worthy of a fun little trophy.

 

[SalyutBuran]

Yup. Honesty is interesting. Especially honesty with emotions. That's all.

You're trying straw man this into a situation where I said characters can't have emotions. The point is they can't be so out of control the characters can't act like professional when on the bridge. Would you tolerate their behaviors if they were on the bridge of an American Super Carrier?

How do you act like you're the greatest ship in the galaxy the greatest assembled team in the galaxy in a complex utopian political structure where there's no money?

If you don't have a really good quick fast answer start with what has already worked in the past, figure that out first and then branch out. Don't do the polar opposite, which is figure ou how to turn STD into SNW's.

The way they adjusted the characters from STD to SNW is rather telling. They went back to form and it is working at least partially.

No. Picard actively made me want to turn TNG off. His discipline was arrogant, his treatment of others stiff, his condescension apparent.

Alright, well for some reason they made him the lead of a show. The fact you don't like him, and he doesn't act like a conscientious individual on the show, says a lot.

Indeed. I suspect the power fantasy appeals to many who feel that they have limited power in their lives.

Because so many high power executives sit down and put their attentions on the ship's Guidance Counselor?[/QUOTE]

 

[fireproof78]

I want to enjoy what I like without it being micro-analyzed half to death by people who think the industry statistics and other numbers can tell you if a show is good or not. To me that's winning a game and worthy of a fun little trophy.

Power and control. That's all it is to tell people why that piece of entertainment they enjoy is wrong.

 

[SalyutBuran]

I want to enjoy what I like without it being micro-analyzed half to death by people who think the industry statistics and other numbers can tell you if a show is good or not. To me that's winning a game and worthy of a fun little trophy.

It can tell you how wide the appeal is.

The appeal will tell you if the show can be continued to be made.

 

[cooleddie74]

Famous last words from Nielsen as well until they changed how they measure ratings and a show's reach in or around 1970 by incorporating the viewing habits of demographic subgroups, after which some people learned that what was a dying vine in 1968 or 1969 was actually more popular than they originally thought and would have been worth keeping on the air.

 

[SalyutBuran]

Then you do want to win the Super Bowl.

Well that's exactly the point, I don't want to be the captain, but I would like to help the captain, be one of his support crew etc. I'd also like to do it in the environment where my coworkers get along, and want to work together instead of insulting eachother and bickering in the middle of a critical moment.

You can say what you want, if I woke up on the STD bridge, I'd be resigning from star fleet in a minute. Toxic work environment might be great drama, but it ain't where I'm gonna enlist.

 

[Sci]

Respect is not like. I don't like Garak but I respect him. Exactly because he maintains a nice little tailor shop, he's competent at an absurd level of things, his hole internal motivation is to please his father, he's incredibly disciplined and motivated etc. You might not describe him that way, but it's largely there.

But I don't respect him. I like him as a character, but he's not deserving of respect, at least not at first. He's this dude who has spent his entire life trying to please a father who will never love him; he has used his talents and abilities to advance the agenda of brutal tyrants and murderers. He is himself a torturer and a murderer. He is ethnocentric, and only begrudgingly, at the end of the series, does he start to accept the idea that the Cardassia he was raised to believe in and support has died and deserved to die. Garak is, to be frank, a piece of shit.

But I like him, because I see his potential to become a decent person and I want him to learn to become better than he is.

Not that his conscientiousness is really a key part of it, he's a B character, not the guy driving the main social environment of the show.

You'd get more mileage with quark, who is at best average.

So what? You tried to argue that I have certain reasons for liking characters that I'm somehow not aware of. My liking a character has nothing to do with whether or not they're in the principal cast.

It's "not wow he's so disciplined", "it's wow I can't believe how much that loss of control as locutus hurt him

It's, "wow, I can't believe how much that loss of control as Locutus hurt him," and it's, "Wow, it's ironic that a man so accomplished in his professional life has such a pathetic private life" and it's "Wow, it's ironic that a man so mature professionally is so immature emotionally."

Ah, so you do admit that you can have implicit biases without realizing it?

Pardon? When on earth did I say I didn't?

The idea that everyone has internal biases and figuring them out is part of life is the very essence of the "wokeism" that you have so decried.

It's not just a being in command fantasy it's broader than that.

Nope. If you're watching Star Trek because you want to be the captain, then you're watching it for a power fantasy.

But not everyone watches Star Trek because any part of them wants to be the captain.

It's about being in a room where people share motivations.

That is, itself, a form of power fantasy: The fantasy of one's own group being the center of the story.

 

[fireproof78]

You're trying straw man this into a situation where I said characters can't have emotions. The point is they can't be so out of control the characters can't act like professional when on the bridge. Would you tolerate their behaviors if they were on the bridge of an American Super Carrier

Yes, I would. Because it's a drama. See also Crimson Tide.

The way they adjusted the characters from STD to SNW is rather telling. They went back to form and it is working at least partially.

Pike let's his people feel.

Alright, well for some reason they made him the lead of a show. The fact you don't like him, and he doesn't act like a conscientious individual on the show, says a lot.

I don't like arrogant people telling me I'm lesser and unevolved.

Because so many high power executives sit down and put their attentions on the ship's Guidance Counselor?

Don't know. Don't care.

 

[The Wormhole]

You can say what you want, if I woke up on the STD bridge, I'd be resigning from star fleet in a minute. Toxic work environment might be great drama, but it ain't where I'm gonna enlist.

If you actually think Disco's bridge is a toxic work environment, than you've clearly never worked in an actual toxic work environment.

Even under Lorca, that bridge was the polar opposite of "toxic."

 

[Sci]

If you actually think Disco's bridge is a toxic work environment, than you've clearly never worked in an actual toxic work environment.

Even under Lorca, that bridge was the polar opposite of "toxic."

Yeah. And especially under Captain Burnham, the Discovery is an extremely supportive, positive workplace. Captain Burnham is remarkably empathetic and compassionate, and she works hard to foster a mutually supportive work environment. And people's needs, including mental health needs, are respected.

 

[cooleddie74]

For all the issues I have with DSC the very idea that the U.S.S. Discovery's bridge is a toxic work environment is just baffling and laughable. Poorly-lit, yes, but toxic?

Yeah...no.

 

[Vger23]

It’s a shame when good threads devolve into inane nonsense that makes me want to jump off a cliff.