Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that.
But like I said, if Seven still calls herself by a Borg name, she can expect some problems serving with survivors of Borg attacks.
EditL "Deadname". Never heard that before. Who woulda thunk it...
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Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x01 - "The Next Generation"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that.
But like I said, if Seven still calls herself by a Borg name, she can expect some problems serving with survivors of Borg attacks.
EditL "Deadname". Never heard that before. Who woulda thunk it...
I would think a free, utopian society, someone would be able to name themselves and not be judged for the name they picked. I mean its not like she chooses to go by the name Adolfa Hitler.
Let's think back to Seven's arc on VGR. She had a Borg do things better mentality (plus kept going by Seven), but from that collectivist background she also really pushed up against Starfleet rules and regulations. STP season 1 sent her on a bizarre detour into grimdark existential nihilism. Ok, no rest button so we're stuck with all that baggage. In season 2 she's in a toxic co-dependent relationship, but ends the season open to joining Starfleet. Ok, Seven's finally in Starfleet. It's not going to be a perfect fit, right? Shaw seems like a good foil for not just Picard and Riker, but Seven as well. Her continuing to use her Borg designation at the very least signals that she might have divided loyalties. He's very by the book, and would have problems trusting her if some of her VGR-era mentality remained. And it's the 2020s so we want character conflict but without it devolving into melodrama. I'm interesting in seeing how this plot develops.
I think Shaw will be around for a while. If he was just going to be in an episode or two, they could have kept Rios, cut down the Ship Captain vs Picard/Riker arc, and had Rios die in the initial encounter with Vadic.
I think Shaw will be around for a while. If he was just going to be in an episode or two, they could have kept Rios, cut down the Ship Captain vs Picard/Riker arc, and had Rios die in the initial encounter with Vadic.
People who've seen multiple episodes are surprised some are interpreting it as an intentional deadname allegory
Yeah, you'd think that, wouldn't you? But it doesn't work that way.
Of course it's not Seven's fault. She can't help being what she was. But are other survivors of Wolf 359 and its ilk, just supposed to forget all that? Especially with a Borg name being shoved in their face every day? Trauma like that never goes away.
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Maybe. But in this case, it's just Shaw's experience and persnickitiness.
Yes, unless it's in First Contact then no. But in Picard, yes.
If that was all that it was, Shaw would probably be an early favorite of mine. I like when the only thing that makes a character an alleged bad guy is that they don't lose IQ points around our heroes. (Yeah, also a fan of Clancy and her f-bomb.) But one of the first things we know about this guy is that he's apparently ordered Seven not to use her preferred identitifiers. He's a deliberately shitty host and disrespectful well before Riker tries to pull the awful "Hey, as a fellow captain, why don't you put your ass on the line just for us? *finger guns*" plan. And then he busts out the explicit bigotry. That's a lot of horseshit for writers to dig a character out of, and they've buried this guy so deep in on first meet that I'm really not interested in watching them try.
Sure -- I'm not saying Shaw isn't an asshole. What I am saying is that he doesn't need to have undergone a traumatic event to be an asshole -- some people are just assholes. And I'm also saying that while he is an asshole, the fact that he's suspicious of and does not bow to Picard and Riker is in and of itself understandable.
Sure he does. What are a retired admiral and a reserve-duty captain doing giving surprise inspections? With no one above them to confirm the legitimacy of their inspection? And then they immediately try to butter him up and talk him into diverting course? They're being suspicious as all hell, and they both have a history of insubordination themselves.
Sure! But Shaw is an asshole. And right now he's an asshole who has valid reason to be suspicious, even if ultimately we know he should trust Picard.
That's right. For some reason, I thought it got Borgified when Jurati flew off with it in the 21st century. I thought it was weird Raffi had a ship that looked EXACTLY like Rios'
Nope! The partially-assimilated ship we saw Jurati fly off with at the end of the 2024 scenes was the alternate-timeline CSS La Sirena NCC-93131, a Confederation of Earth ship. The Prime Timeline's civilian-registered S.S. La Sirena NAR-93131 originally owned by Cristóbal Rios is the one Raffi is piloting in her undercover work.
This is ultimately a function of the fact that modern American dramatic television uses much more cinematic lighting conventions than it did in the 1990s. Go back and watch a lot of 1990s dramas on modern HD TVs and you'll see that the lighting registers on modern TV sets as overlit and flat. The Titan-A bridge was not "dark" in the sense of being glumy -- it's clearly "dark" in the same sense that the Enterprise-E bridge was dark or the Enterprise-D bridge in Generation was dark.
That's a legitimate artistic choice, but it's gonna depend on what your goals are. If your goal is to communicate to the audience that a starship is a complex machine and give the impression of a large crew doing complicated work to operate the ship, then having more complex displays is a good way to accomplish that task.
Demonstrating that technology has progressed is a legitimate artistic goal, but it comes at the potential cost of audience members not realizing that that's your intention or not understanding that the ship is more advanced and therefore more automated. You risk the audience just thinking it looks cheap.
... no. Can't say the thought occurred to me.
Yeah, it seemed dramatically arbitrary -- like they wanted both to try to hit the nostalgia button and the "this is a new ship!" button. I think it would have been better to just use Riker's original Titan and establish that the captain and command crew had not served under Riker.
Raffi is great and I'm glad she's still with us.
I mean, it makes sense that the Borg would have tried to use a computer virus to disable the Enterprise though. Honestly electronic warfare measures like that should realistically be a standard tactic in space battles. I'm okay with the idea that there was even more going on during "The Best of Both Worlds" than we got to see onscreen -- the lower deckers were working hard, too!
But... why would she cut everyone off for that?
Jurati's Borg will not assimilate you without your consent. If you agree to join them, you consent to merging your identity with theirs in advance. That's not gonna be appealing for the vast majority of people, but there is probably a minority of most populations who would agree to the kind of intimacy and unity such joining would give them if they can consent to it. So, not the same thing as "eradicating your individuality" at all, any more than a consensual mind meld is that.
And I for one want to know what's going on with Jurati and her Borg Commonwealth these days!
There's no particular plot reason Elnor couldn't have been assigned to the Titan as a cadet in his field training a la Nog in Deep Space Nine or Uhura in Strange New Worlds. And why not establish that Romulan society is more diverse and complicated than Next Generation had implied? The Qowat Milat have been used for some really interesting stuff on Discovery, and the complication they represent to the authority of the Romulan state is really fascinating! Romulan political elites throughout the Next Generation era are so duplicitous -- and then it turns out there's this old Romulan semi-religious institution that just refuses to engage in any sort of duplicity at all! It makes you wonder -- is it possible that the Romulan Commander from "Balance of Terror" (TOS) was influenced by the Qowat Milat? Admiral Jarok from "The Defector?"
And Elnor was not pointless. I do agree he wasn't developed as well as he should have been, but I saw a lot of potential in him.
All the prior Picard characters were fun and interesting and would have been worth bringing back.
I see no reason to assume Beverly's situation is related to Section 31 in any way. And Raffi is working for Starfleet Intelligence, not Section 31.
That's not bad world building. It's a character choice, to signify to the audience that Shaw doesn't respect Picard and Riker and that he's an asshole.
Does Picard have clout there? Gowron was overthrown by Worf and Martok installed almost thirty years ago at this point. It's not even clear that Martok is still Chancellor at this point, and we don't know Worf's pull within the Empire. There's no reason to think Picard as any clout in the Klingon Empire these days.
Because that's not how she thinks of herself, and she doesn't feel resentful and threatened by every aspect of Borg culture even if she now understands how abusive the Queen's "Collective" really was to her. Like it or not, it's the culture she was raised in, and she still thinks of herself as Seven of Nine.
I dunno about that. I could see a plausible alternate version of Picard where everyone stays aboard La Sirena as a sort of "found family." Picard and Soji, in particular, might have wanted to stay aboard La Sirena to get away from both Coppellian and Federation culture's biases. Elnor is clearly gonna go wherever Picard goes. Raffi had been rejected by Starfleet but vindicated in her conspiracy theories, so I could see her not wanting to return to the fleet. Hell, there was a built-in plot device of the Fenris Rangers being an organization they could all join.
Riker didn't summon a fleet of dozens of ships. Remember, Picard had gotten in touch with Fleet Admiral Clancy before the two-part finale and provided evidence of everything he'd found. She had already agreed to send a fleet to Coppellius to protect the androids, confront the Zhat Vash, and defeat the Admonition-Makers. Riker was assigned to command that fleet but he didn't order it out there.
The reason they're not going to Starfleet Command now to get the Titan-A to change course is that Beverly warned Picard not to involve them -- there's a possibility that whatever hostile actor is stalking Beverly has infiltrated Starfleet Command.
Except Kirk knew about David. Carol hadn't kept David a secret from him -- they had just broken up and she wanted to raise David without Kirk's involvement. Kirk always knew he had a son and that Carol was raising him.
I figure that in-universe, she was reviewing the "hide-in-a-nebula" tactic and/or the Hell-whatever codec, and that out-universe, it was foreshadowing for audience members to understand the situation she was in.
Yeah the first shot with her on M'Talas prime, it says she was in District 6
It would explain the favelas which I doubt you'd see on any Federation planet. Starfleet was probably trying to give some of these people a better life. I wonder if the backstory was this was a planet Rachel Garrett visited once.
I wonder if the Starfleet recruitment center there also tries to do what it can to fight poverty on M'Talas within the bounds of the Prime Directive? Honestly it's so large I wonder if it might house the Federation Embassy.
I believe @EJD1984 is making a reference to James Bond's boss in MI6 always using the codename "M."
They did 179 episodes of that. You can watch those instead.
Nope.
Nope.
That's like asking why anyone would find a story about characters successfully coping with trauma interesting: because it helps us deal with our own pain. And, in Jean-Luc's case, because it explains why he's always been so messed up in his personal life!
Yes it is. You just didn't like that it broke Star Trek's artistic conventions because you're threatened by change.
I took that line to be a reference to the end of "Attached," where Jean-Luc finally puts himself out there and asks Beverly to have a relationship with him but she turns him down.
The Federation might have fought against giving legal recognition to names derived from Borg drone designations, particularly as XBs became more common after the apparent collapse of most of the Borg Collective in "Endgame, Part II" (VOY).
The Borg thing could also be a reason she would join Starfleet under her birth name. In Voyager she was hesitant about getting to Earth because of the Borg attacks in the Alpha Quadrant and how she’d be received by survivors and victims. Maybe she used “Hansen” to be sensitive to those people even if she prefers “Seven of Nine”
Right. Because it’s never been spelled out on screen it’s fair to assume she joins under her birth name.
Right. Because it’s never been spelled out on screen it’s fair to assume she joins under her birth name.
I've noticed people spoiling a lot of stuff here thoughout this thread. I know some things have been officially/ inofficially confirmed, but could we still put spoiler tags on it?
1) Nihilism and existentialism are opposite philosophies. You can't be an existentialist and a nihilist.
2) The point of her arc in S1 is that she's starting to emerge from the despair that had taken her, and befriending Jean-Luc was the catalyst for that.
What??? What the hell are you talking about? Seven and Raffi were having a rough patch as a result of Seven's unresolved personal issues. That's absolutely not the same thing as the relationship itself being toxic or co-dependent.
I can imagine Shaw thinking this, but it's important to bear in mind that that argument is per se utter nonsense.
I mean people in Star Trek have also had bad experiences with Klingons and Romulans, but no one would tell Worf and Laris to change their names.
Nor does Shaw have any reason to trust Picard.
Indeed. 30 years is a long time and Klingon power struggles tend to have a long impact.
Trying to relive the past is so much fun.
Yes, indeed. Trauma can impact a lot of people and art reflects life. People should not be expected to just "get over" trauma just because it's uncomfortable or inconvenient for others. And sadly, it is often expected!
Change is bad, especially in a franchise that is all about humanity growing and changing.
Sorry I disagree. Season two was not fun. I find it hilarious that Picard never once had a discussion about his mom. Somehow he thought she had lived to an old age. Terribly written story and so boring. I would rather have 3 days of the stomach flu than rewatch season two of Picard again.
PREACH! The problem with so much of it and comment outside the show is its often done for performative reasons to the current "It Crowd" rather than actually making a stand on a hot button issue of the day and trying to operate it allegoricly. The problem is its been a long time since I've seen something like this in media without it being awful, or ham fisted in its approach. Like nobody really "uses" twitter in the day to day bar the it crowd which will shriek and demand it, they're a very small voice that some idiot gave the largest megaphone to.
It's hacky, lazy, and shows the writers have no cojones to actually take on a thorny issue and gun for potential glory because they probably can't manage it, or don't actually care for it and so just throw platitudes out on Twitter instead.
Thing is, because its so subjective people quite cheerfully slam meaning where there is none. A great one is...
Professor: And so, the author choses red for the front door to represent the thing most associated with that colour, passion, love, but also anger to show their deeply complicated emotional relationship with....
Author: So, the door's red because my front door is red.
Nobody's really playing this angle, which I think most people would. Like, ok, end of the day the Borg strip everything from you unwillingly. They forcefully assimilate you into the collective and make you join a constantly screaming chorus which requires technology to forcibly purge most emotions and the sheer terror of billions if not trillions of voices all linked in together.
The Borg irreversably damage you psychologially, physically, etc. Quite a lot of people who don't know Seven aren't going to see some amazing character that the rest of us have grown with.
They see a victim with Stockholm Syndrome insisting on calling herself with a (frankly) completely dehumanizing designation. The Borg don't even call them names!
Could be that Shaw is 1) Distrusting of Borg due to past history and 2) Desperately trying to get his first officer to break the conditioning a lot of people looking from the outside will still see her suffering from.
Like, to make some deadname/trans allegory because of a desigation given by the BORG is so idiotically ham fisted it feels very CURRENT YEAR writing.
She didn't choose that name, she didn't choose to be assimilated. Becoming Borg is quite literally the antithesis of free and personal agency. Anyone can choose to change their name. Heck, my father didn't go by his "given name" and I increasingly don't because of how common my first name is.
Doesn't mean I'm going to go through all the legal rigmarole to actually change it.
Well, to be fair, it's not quite as obvious in those cases. You hear names like those and you don't immediately think Klingon or Romulan.
Seven, on the other hand...everybody knows where that name comes from.
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It has happened to people in real life. They delude themselves into thinking something else happened when it didn't because of trauma. It is realistic.
Well, we have to protect our phoney baloney jobs.
That's some bullshit right there. He literally says she is dead in his vision of her in the stupid episode with the stupid Traveller and thought as the basis of reality. Why would he talk about her? His dad clearly modeled that talking about it was not acceptable.
This is psychology 101.
How do we know she didn't have her name "legally changed" which really shouldn't be a thing anymore. If she wants to be called "Seven" that's her right. Just like Kira wasn't forced to be called by her rank and surname. Bajorans use their give name as their title, so people accepted that and respected it.
It would be a really sad state of affairs if people weren't allowed to self-ID in the Federation.
Seven has at least one living human relative, doesn't she? Like an aunt or something? It'd be interesting to hear their perspective on what name Seven chooses to "identify" with. Would they see it as a rejection of the Hansen family?
