Where Berman was concerned, at least later on in Trek, neglect was the preferable action.
They were better than Voyager's.
Why no movie for Deep Space Nine??
- Thread starter Mrs. Silvercrest
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Where Berman was concerned, at least later on in Trek, neglect was the preferable action.
I think it is the same kind of joke DS9 plays on the audience when they let Worf say 'We do not discuss it with outsiders' in Trials and tribble-ations when asked for an explanation why the TOS Klingons look different to the DS9 Klingons, telling the fans they should just accept out-of-universe reasons for the change since they're not going to come up with some convoluted within-universe-explanation. Granted, giving a not-too-convoluted explanation would have been far easier in the Insurrection case, but insulting? I think that is very much a matter of interpretation.
I was just as happy, and somewhat amused, that in INS they don't even particularly give an explanation for Worf showing up. It felt like a bit of a meta-joke.
Having Worf show up apparently as a regular crewman in NEM after becoming an ambassador at the end of DS9, on the other hand, was flat-out insulting. I know there's some debate as to the plans to destroy Defiant in FC, but this just adds fuel to the fire of the argument that TPTB didn't particularly respect DS9.
Having Worf show up apparently as a regular crewman in NEM after becoming an ambassador at the end of DS9, on the other hand, was flat-out insulting. I know there's some debate as to the plans to destroy Defiant in FC, but this just adds fuel to the fire of the argument that TPTB didn't particularly respect DS9.
I think many fans find reasons to see decisions as "insulting" even if it isn't meant as such. I thought Behr was on record that being ignored sometimes served DS9 quite well because they could experiment more? If DS9 had been more respected then I doubt we would have gotten the storylines we did.
Perhaps they should have make Worf break character for a second here.
Picard: "Mr. Worf? What the hell are you doing here as part of my crew? Weren't you supposed to be an ambassador on Qo'noS?"
Worf: "Whatever I say now, within a few days or weeks fans will come up with much better and more creative explanations, and post them on the internet. I suggest you wait for those, Captain."
Picard: "Very well Mr. Worf. Carry on.".
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DS9 was left to push the envelope, while Voyager was carefully and attentively run... right into the ground.
I'd pay (though not much) to see this.
I haven't seen NEM in a long time and as such I can't recall much of a damn thing he did in the film, but it would have been perfectly reasonable for him to be at the reception for his friends but still in the ambassador role, and then just on the E-E as a passenger for the trip to Betazed for the wedding. Hell, when the Remans boarded the ship it would have been nice to see him go hand-to-hand with them (Riker never made much sense to me in this role).
DS9 aired by itself for a total of ten weeks, I believe? The series wasn't really allowed to go it alone. It just always seemed to be in the shadow of another Star Trek series that was getting all the attention. It was never given a chance to "bear the torch" because it was sandwiched in between two higher profile Trek shows. The Next Generation, while a major success, was Star Trek's glorious return to television and proved that it could succeed with the original series cast. Voyager then comes along and is the cornerstone of a new (and shitty) television network.
Deep Space Nine just kind of sat there doing its thing.
But I have to admit that I kind of liked the fact that this series was the underdog. If Berman (and the studio?) placed as much attention on it as they did The Next Generation and Voyager, I can't imagine what the result would've been.
Deep Space Nine just kind of sat there doing its thing.
But I have to admit that I kind of liked the fact that this series was the underdog. If Berman (and the studio?) placed as much attention on it as they did The Next Generation and Voyager, I can't imagine what the result would've been.
Nog would have still been busing tables at Quark's and periodically getting arrested for petty theft and vandalism... in Year 7.
I'd give this comment more than just a 'like' if the forum permitted it. Maybe an icon system like FB?
Which just proves what many fans were saying about the "Killer Bs" even back then: that they should have turned the franchise over to better creatives.
Berman had no vision beyond the bottom line, and every decision he made showed it.
And his (or Braga's) deliberate decision to respond to audience concerns with the equivalent of a hard slap across their face shows that he even managed to screw that up.
It just goes to show that the production teams and what they like often times differ from what fans like. So, trying to say "Oh, we know the fans will like this!" is setting up for failure because what fans value, and what production team members values are often very far apart. Production teams don't always have the same eye for detail that fans do, or repeated viewings, nor do they necessarily want to.
What I was going to say earlier in a post was that, to me, The Next Generation was the Star Trek series that demonstrated you could successfully revive the brand without needing the cast of the original series.
Deep Space Nine demonstrates what else could be done with Star Trek when you didn't have an executive producer tying it down and being unwilling to try new things.
I like Voyager and Enterprise as much as the next person, but, the shows just play it too safe and I attribute a lot of that to Rick Berman. Paramount certainly had a hand in that, too.
Deep Space Nine demonstrates what else could be done with Star Trek when you didn't have an executive producer tying it down and being unwilling to try new things.
I like Voyager and Enterprise as much as the next person, but, the shows just play it too safe and I attribute a lot of that to Rick Berman. Paramount certainly had a hand in that, too.
Deep Space 9 seemed to have a better feel for its fans than the other Berman era series did. Consider:
TNG had "Homeward", an episode where a hard decision by Picard gets widespread disgust.
VOY had "Tuvix", and while this one is more balanced, a lot of people regard Janeway's actions as murder, pure and simple.
And ENT had "Dear Doctor", in which Phlox's assertion and Archer's subsequent decision are regarded by the fanbase as tantamount to genocide.
Contrastingly, DS9 has "In the Pale Moonlight", in which Sisko's difficult and controversial decision is generally lauded as the right call.
TNG had "Homeward", an episode where a hard decision by Picard gets widespread disgust.
VOY had "Tuvix", and while this one is more balanced, a lot of people regard Janeway's actions as murder, pure and simple.
And ENT had "Dear Doctor", in which Phlox's assertion and Archer's subsequent decision are regarded by the fanbase as tantamount to genocide.
Contrastingly, DS9 has "In the Pale Moonlight", in which Sisko's difficult and controversial decision is generally lauded as the right call.
I consider "Tuvix" a great episode precisely because, while I disagree strongly with Janeway's decision, I can entirely understand her reasoning.
For ENT, I think a better example would have been "Cogenitor", where again, one can entirely understand how Trip went down the road he did while also strongly disagreeing with his choices.
Regarding "Homeward", I think the problem is that it didn't seem like a hard decision for Picard, and that ultimately Worf's brother came across as having more humanity than he did. It also took people aback to consider that the PD was ever intended to be interpreted in the way Picard was interpreting it. Nevermind that Kirk would have told the PD to go jump off a bridge (see what I did there?) if Picard's interpretation was correct...and arguably we see that for ourselves in Into Darkness.
Sisko's decision in ITPM may or may not have been the right call...it's certainly hard to argue against...in the moment, but we don't know what the long-term repercussions, if any, might have been, especially if the Romulans found out what he did.
For ENT, I think a better example would have been "Cogenitor", where again, one can entirely understand how Trip went down the road he did while also strongly disagreeing with his choices.
Regarding "Homeward", I think the problem is that it didn't seem like a hard decision for Picard, and that ultimately Worf's brother came across as having more humanity than he did. It also took people aback to consider that the PD was ever intended to be interpreted in the way Picard was interpreting it. Nevermind that Kirk would have told the PD to go jump off a bridge (see what I did there?) if Picard's interpretation was correct...and arguably we see that for ourselves in Into Darkness.
Sisko's decision in ITPM may or may not have been the right call...it's certainly hard to argue against...in the moment, but we don't know what the long-term repercussions, if any, might have been, especially if the Romulans found out what he did.
I feel exactly the same way. But I still consider the moment when the Doc refused flatly to separate Tuvix to be one of his finest moments.
I didn't mention "Cogenitor" because by and large, the opinion on this board is what the episode states, namely that Trip's actions were wrong and he was responsible for Charles's death. This opinion is prevalent enough that my opposition to it has drawn some ire.
Easy to understand why... the PD was designed to help the Federation do right by other worlds, not be complicit in their annihilation.
It could easily have led to more war.
Tuvix was deliberately written to have no solution in my view. When death is reversible, refusing to reverse it becomes approximately the same as refusing to prevent a death in my book. So Janeway would always have become complicit to the deaths of either Tuvok and Neelix, or Tuvix, in the latter case her action just being more direct.
The underlying problem with Homescape (I think) was that Picard's refusal was just a plot device and not really integral to the story. It was tacked on only to create a(n extra) source of conflict between Worf and Nikolai, but had the script been written a bit more carefully it wouldn't have been necessary to have Picard act in this way.
The underlying problem with Homescape (I think) was that Picard's refusal was just a plot device and not really integral to the story. It was tacked on only to create a(n extra) source of conflict between Worf and Nikolai, but had the script been written a bit more carefully it wouldn't have been necessary to have Picard act in this way.
1. "Homeward". Homescapes is a 3D match game that is listed as free to play, but gobbles up money if the player isn't wise to its mechanics.
2. Other than that, you're right. And we see the "real" Picard later that episode.
(Picard and Crusher are talking about Vorin, who has committed suicide)
CRUSHER: "He would have died even if we hadn't interfered."
PICARD: "But he wouldn't have died alone and afraid."
CRUSHER: "Are you saying you're sorry we saved the Boraalans?"
PICARD: "No, of course not. Our plan for them worked out well..."
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