It's not uncommon to look down upon the past. We look down upon the 1950s. I hope people in the future look down upon the 2020s. The times we're living in are pretty messed up.
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What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?
- Thread starter Amasov
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To me, there is a difference in looking down and touting current superiority and acknowledging the past as messed up but valuable for growth.
This is how I feel... I think we won't see that in fiction, if ever for a long, long time. 9/11 kind of put the nail in the coffin for optimism in fiction
I would say that say DSC is about as optimistic as TOS. Picard only slightly less so. Lower Decks fits right in with TNG except the characters aren't laughably stiff and holier than thou.
All the things people decry as 'too depressing' in modern Trek already existed in both of those series. At most it was just a little papered over by the episodic nature of the writing and the fact that the bad stuff usually happened to guest stars instead of the main cast.
All the things people decry as 'too depressing' in modern Trek already existed in both of those series. At most it was just a little papered over by the episodic nature of the writing and the fact that the bad stuff usually happened to guest stars instead of the main cast.
In a way, TOS was glorifying the American military for ending WW2...and yes, we had not been attacked on our own soil for a very long time before 9-11.
But in the absence of war or a specific external enemy, it seems the US turns against itself, with extreme political divisiveness and random violence toward its own citizens. If Trek has ever shown the Federation coping successfully with that issue, I have not been aware of it.
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I think TNG's "The Drumhead" and DS9's "Homefront/Paradise Lost" touch on this when they show what the lack of trust and paranoia will due to the organizations that say they are to protect the people. The only way to find peace in that is to build trust within communities, and reach out to larger communities to build more and more trust. We can't rely just on organizations to promote peace; we have to build it.
Disagree. I think the premier episode of Strange New Worlds does exactly that. That was its mission, explicitly. It took the bull by the horns, set World War III as something in the (possible) future of the audience, and established the people of the 23rd century as having found a hopeful future that they can share with other beings who are in danger of making similar mistakes.
The implication therefore is that we, the people in the real world, can avoid the nightmare scenario. If that's not optimism, what is?
The TVH referece was an outlier--not the common attitude from the TOS era as it would be in the Berman period. While TOS had the 1701 crew (Spock more than anyone else) note the violence or dysfunction of cultures from the past (usually targeting "Old Earth"), the characters were not sitting on the pompous Platform of Perfection like characters seen in TNG.
^I felt that was likely, that's why I added 'at least in the movies'. They were a different thing from TOS as a series (' We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today') - as much as the TNG movies were different from the TNG series.
TNG and later series of the Berman era may have had it as an undertone, but I think it only was truly insufferable or 'sterile' in the early TNG era (also with some outliers), and they corrected it.
TNG and later series of the Berman era may have had it as an undertone, but I think it only was truly insufferable or 'sterile' in the early TNG era (also with some outliers), and they corrected it.
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And note, I said 'little glimmers of it'. That episode qualifies, for sure.
But on a regular or even semi-regular basis? I don't think so.
If anything, I think First Contact went out of its way to deconstruct it. Lily comes right out and calls "bullshit" on everything Picard says, and then he goes into an all-out fit of rage.
If that scene doesn't convince people that Star Trek, even in the mid-'90s, had moved past the "everything's perfect and sterile" attitude from TNG Season 1, I don't know what will.
Really, these TOS Only fans who hate TNG should love Picard. The entire series of Picard is one big, fat deconstruction of TNG. If they got passed the "It's new, so it must suck!" attitude they have and actually gave it a chance, they'd see it isn't as bad as they think it is or as bad as what the Internet says (and those people who are tearing it apart are really people who grew up with TNG).
Let me put this out there to the hardcore "TOS Is the Only Trek!" People: a lot of Berman Fans don't like Picard. Some of them outright hate it. If a TOS Only doesn't like Berman Trek, wouldn't it make sense that they might think something a Berman Fan hates might actually be to their liking? The same goes for DSC. Think about it...
I like TOS better than TNG, and I love Picard. Well, I love the first season, more accurately. The second season has its ups and downs.
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Or is it more a case of like it is with music? Someone who likes the Oldies but doesn't like what came out after John Lennon died, isn't going to like what's out right now either? Even though what came out in the 1980s and 2020s is different, and there's a world of difference between Poison and Drake, it's still not going to be what you're into.
In that case, fine. You like what you like and you don't like what you don't like, but not everything you dislike is "all the same!" It's not all the same. And it hasn't been all the same for a long time.
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If anyone needs a re-fresher, here it is.
If you can explain to me how this is like TNG Season 1, then go right ahead. I'm all ears. I'd love to hear what you come up with.
If you can explain to me how this is like TNG Season 1, then go right ahead. I'm all ears. I'd love to hear what you come up with.
We have long, long, long since seen a return to optimistic Star Trek. ENT S4 was a return to optimistic ST. Star Trek (2009) and Star Trek Beyond were optimistic ST. DIS S2 and S4 were optimistic ST. PIC S2 was optimistic ST. LD S1-3 is optimistic ST. PRO S1 is optimistic ST. SNW S1 is optimistic ST.
ENT S3, DIS S1, S3, PIC S1, and Star Trek Into Darkness were less optimistic in that they all started from a place of darkness, but they all ended in a place of hope and optimism as a result of the protagonists triumphing over the antagonists.
I don't recall him saying that. I recall him saying -- and this is my summary of his words, not a quote -- that Star Trek needed to speak to the darkness of the moment (triumph of xenophobes in Britain re: Brexit, triumph of American fascism in the form of Trump, etc). That is not the same thing as saying there is "no time for optimism."
And bear in mind that winning World War II, while a matter of a great deal of pride, was not exactly the source of nostalgia and optimism for the United Kingdom that it was for the United States. The U.S. didn't suffer from the Blitz the way the U.K. did. The earliest memories of many Britons who lived through World War II as children include being terrified of dying in the Blitz every night.
Furthermore, World War II all but bankrupted the U.K., and British citizens had to endure rationing basic foodstuffs for many years afterwards. Their economy was ruined. Living through the end of World War II meant having to rebuild a country that had been brutalized by German bombings. It also meant the collapse of the British Empire -- which was an evil system that needed to end, but its end also harmed feelings of national pride and optimism (as the fall of imperial systems always does for imperialists). So for a lot of reasons, some valid and some not, living through World War II was simply not a source of hope and optimism for many Britons the way it was for many Americans.
For many of them, they don't look back on it and think, "Ah, the good old days. That was a good war. We could be proud." Many of them look back on it and think, "Dear God, we're lucky we survived that. Those were terrible days. I hope to God we don't fall into that darkness again."
There has been plenty of hopeful, optimistic fiction written and produced since 9/11. Finding Nemo. Spider-Man 2. The Avengers. The Incredibles. Star Wars: The Force Awakens. WALL-E. Up. Iron Man. Paddington and Paddington 2. Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse. Moana. Encanto. Hamilton: An American Musical. Once Upon A Time in Hollywood. Jojo Rabbit. Little Women. Darkest Hour. The Post. The Fabelmans. The Martian. Selma. Birdman or (The Unexpected Virtue of Ignorance). Argo. Django Unchained. Lincoln. The Artist. The King's Speech. The Aviator. Bridgerton. Community. Leverage. Only Murders in the Building. Ted Lasso. The Orville. Schitt's Creek. Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. Glee. The Big Bang Theory. Modern Family. Parks and Recreation. How I Met Your Mother. Mean Girls. Frozen. School of Rock. Matilda: The Musical. Wicked. The Book of Mormon. In the Heights. Hairspray: The Musical. Doctor Who. Incredibles 2. Thor. Thor: Ragnarok. Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl. Mama Mia! Eureka. Warehouse 13. Tangled. Knives Out. Glass Onion. Love Actually. Inside Out. Love, Simon. The F Word/What If. Hugo. The Way Way Back. Safety Not Guaranteed. Easy A. Pitch Perfect. Ponyo. The Wind Rises. Ratatouille.
And that is an extremely limited selection!
I mean, c'mon. If the worst war in human history didn't stop Star Trek from being made twenty years later, why would 9/11 stop optimistic fiction from being made twenty years later?
I was actually thinking of the latter. I know he didn't fight in the war and that he was a child, but I can't imagine that he wasn't affected by it in very real ways like you describe. Hence my sense of astonishment at the attitude of "This was all well and good back in the day but things are BAD now."
The last several years have been bad for lots of reasons but I know that the time during and after TOS was being made (in the U.S. at the very least) were worse. Some of them I remember the same way Stewart must remember WWII.
Star Trek has gotten itself into an interesting place now because not only is World War III canonically right around the corner, but at least two of the shows are leaning into that!
@Lord Garth - that's an interesting take on Picard. My biggest objections to the show was that it just wasn't very good. Except for the parts that were, of course. I'm still looking forward to season 3.
EDIT: I missed this:
Absolutely!
Optimism is an attitude, not your circumstances. Attitude will dictate accomplishment in striving for a better future.
As @plynch noted the optimism was that we survived and worked together.
That's also true...
After seeing the season 3 trailer for Picard.
Do we really need it, I mean another season?
Abrams' planned fourth movie must not be allowed to take off. He's done enough damage already.
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