The Prophets are the true villains

[parsonsm]

I've thought this for a while but on my current re-watch its really coming home to me how much the prophets are the true villains of DS9.

Dukat schemes, but for most of the series he is really just a Cardassian Officer representing Cardassian interests.

He even works with Sisko at times towards common ends. Yes, they have disagreements but really he is just an alien with a different ideology than is represented by our 'heroes.'

Winn is similar. She is a very ambitious person who wants to be Kai, but she is not evil as such.

And again, the founders really only act from a background of having been hunted and abused by 'solids.;

The true villains, if there is such a thing in DS9 are the prophets.

They know what is to happen through their non linear view of time, and yet they do nothing but use people towards their own aims.

They indirectly or perhaps even directly lead Dukat and Winn down the line to their involvement with the Pah-Wraiths, knowing full well what the outcome will be.

They use Sisko and take away any happiness he might.

They destroy a fleet of Dominion ships and all the passengers in the wormhole with callous disregard for the results.

Yes, it can be argued that they are somehow separate from the mainstream species, and as such their actions cannot be held to account in the same way, but in my opinion its not enough of an argument to forgive them.

So i agree with Marc Alaimo, Dukat was not evil, or even a villain.

The prophets were the 'Big Bad.'

Complexity like this is part of what made DS9 so great.

 

[Kor]

...
They destroy a fleet of Dominion ships and all the passengers in the wormhole with callous disregard for the results.
...

Only after Sisko pleaded with them that "Bajor needs a miracle. Stop those ships."
Otherwise the wormhole aliens wouldn't have done anything about those ships. And I may be misremembering, but I don't think there were any innocent "passengers" aboard those Dominion ships. They were repeatedly described as "reinforcements," clearly combatants with intent as aggressors.

Kor

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

But the prophets were non linear. They may be aware of the time dimension, but they don’t experience it as a slideshow like us.
They treat it much the same as we do spatial dimensions.
Those dimensions simply exist.
Anything by we perceive as actions by the prophets to change any outcomes through foreknowledge is them simply being part of existence.
In a way they lack agency even their self awareness can at least be questioned.

It is our perception of change through only experiencing one moment at a time that gives us the illusion of agency and creates responsibility as part of our social constructs.

 

[XCV330]

The prophets are high. The Sisko has been mellow and seeing tracers for two decades. He's not unhappy. He's not coming back.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

They treat it much the same as we do spatial dimensions.

When I see a plane coming over the horizon, all I know is that it's a plane. When it's overhead, I can say, oh shit, that's a bomber.

 

[fireproof78]

The prophets were the 'Big Bad.'

This is an oversimplification of the Prophets that ignores their nature. They do not understand spatial dimensions in the same way, nor is corporeal existence something that makes sense to them, any more than I can explain the color red to an earthworm. To call them the "big bad" is to say that what they did was intent on malevolence and hostility towards the rest of the galaxy, which is hard to argue. At most, they are myopic, seeing only the things that concern them, which is a common theme in noncorporeal beings throughout Trek, and other science fiction. At worst, they are indifferent, unable or unwilling to consider consequences until someone pushes their faces in to it.

 

[parsonsm]

This is an oversimplification of the Prophets that ignores their nature. They do not understand spatial dimensions in the same way, nor is corporeal existence something that makes sense to them, any more than I can explain the color red to an earthworm. To call them the "big bad" is to say that what they did was intent on malevolence and hostility towards the rest of the galaxy, which is hard to argue. At most, they are myopic, seeing only the things that concern them, which is a common theme in noncorporeal beings throughout Trek, and other science fiction. At worst, they are indifferent, unable or unwilling to consider consequences until someone pushes their faces in to it.

'The will of the Prophets...'
'The Siskos task is finished...'

Non corporeal or not the prophets knew the endgame. And they used people, they used Sisko, they used Bareil, and pretty much anyone else that can be named.

 

[fireproof78]

'The will of the Prophets...'
'The Siskos task is finished...'

Non corporeal or not the prophets knew the endgame. And they used people, they used Sisko, they used Bareil, and pretty much anyone else that can be named.

That doesn't make them evil nor the "big bad" as stated in the opening post. Perhaps utilitarian in their purpose, but that again is more around their nature in terms of not understanding corporeal beings and their experience of time.

 

[Captain pl1ngpl0ng]

if Dukat is not bad, but really just a Cardassian Officer representing Cardassian interests
and Winn is not evil, just a very ambitious person who wants to be Kai
and the founders really only act like they did because of their background
then The Wormhole Aliens must only be Wormhole Aliens doing Wormhole Alien stuff
they are not "Big Bad"...

 

[parsonsm]

if Dukat is not bad, but really just a Cardassian Officer representing Cardassian interests
and Winn is not evil, just a very ambitious person who wants to be Kai
and the founders really only act like they did because of their background
then The Wormhole Aliens must only be Wormhole Aliens doing Wormhole Alien stuff
they are not "Big Bad"...

I wasn't really attempting to say anything definitive, just raising the complexity of the characters and how its a strength of DS9 that things were never so simple. I was being a bit facetious referring to the prophets as the 'big bad.'

 

[Tosk]

It's just a prank, bro!

 

[Captain pl1ngpl0ng]

 

[parsonsm]

I'll perhaps need to be active on this forum for a bit longer to understand what has happened in this thread.

 

[kkt]

Dukat is a senior officer in Cardassia, even when he was just Prefect of Bajor. As such, his job is not only to execute Carcassian policy but also to provide input into Cardassian policy and push it in the best direction. Dukat cannot be excused from the war crimes of the occupation just because it was Cardassian policy.

It's not a crime for Winn to want to be Kai, but conspiring with an assassin to attempt to assassinate Bareil at the school is certainly a crime.

 

[Lynx]

The OP looks like it's written by one of the members in a Pah-Wraith cult.
Maybe Dukat himself!


Anyway, interesting comments from another perspective.

Personally I won't call The Prophets "the bad guys" but they had a weird way to affect events.
And why did they use Sisko as some tool? More and less ordering him to not marry Casidy because he should remain their little toy. They are strange beings indeed.

 

[parsonsm]

Dukat is a senior officer in Cardassia, even when he was just Prefect of Bajor. As such, his job is not only to execute Carcassian policy but also to provide input into Cardassian policy and push it in the best direction. Dukat cannot be excused from the war crimes of the occupation just because it was Cardassian policy.

It's not a crime for Winn to want to be Kai, but conspiring with an assassin to attempt to assassinate Bareil at the school is certainly a crime.

I guess my argument would be that everything was being directed by the prophets, with their ultimate aim to destroy the pah-wraiths.

I'm not sure i really accept that they would 'above it all' as such.

 

[parsonsm]

The OP looks like it's written by one of the members in a Pah-Wraith cult.
Maybe Dukat himself!


Anyway, interesting comments from another perspective.

Personally I won't call The Prophets "the bad guys" but they had a weird way to affect events.
And why did they use Sisko as some tool? More and less ordering him to not marry Casidy because he should remain their little toy. They are strange beings indeed.

Strange beings...

Indeed! This is part of my original point. Nothing is ever black and white in DS9, well rarely at least!

 

[somebuddyX]

I don't think the Prophets are bad but I definitely don't think they're as good as the Bajorans or the show wants you to think they are. I personally hope there's different sects of the Bajoran religions where some don't think Sisko was the Emissary and some Bajoran atheists who think the Bajor was only used by the Prophets in their conflict against the Pah Wraiths, and some who think the Pah-Wraiths were right all along. It might have made things too muddied if the reason the Pah Wraiths rebelled was because the Prophets were messing about with linear time and the Bajorans, but I kinda, sorta like it.
Oh yeah and there's that whole bodysnatching Sarah so she could get impregnated and concieve Sisko and then probably arranging her hovercraft accident so she wasn't around in the future to have words with Ben about her feelings on that.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Dukat was explicitly driven only by his self aggrandizing ego. Anything he did was motivated by a belief in his racial superiority and telling the story of his greatness. He’s the definition of a villain, he was just better at hiding his aims before Waltz.

Same with Winn, everything she did was motivated by narcissism and careerism.

The Founders may have trauma that explained their actions but that doesn’t let them off the hook for killing and subjugating billions of people.

The Prophets had sone questionable actions, but anything they did that seemed bad by itself was done with the knowledge not doing it would lead to something worse. They got rid of what, a few thousand Gem Hadar, and the result saved trillions. They conscripted Sarah Sisko, because without Ben Sisko, Bajor gets wiped out. One life for billions.

If you can apply such moral relativism to the clearly murderous and sociopathic actions of your other examples I don’t see how you can’t apply the same to the Prophets.

 

[at Quark's]

I've thought this for a while but on my current re-watch its really coming home to me how much the prophets are the true villains of DS9.

Dukat schemes, but for most of the series he is really just a Cardassian Officer representing Cardassian interests.
He even works with Sisko at times towards common ends. Yes, they have disagreements but really he is just an alien with a different ideology than is represented by our 'heroes.'
Winn is similar. She is a very ambitious person who wants to be Kai, but she is not evil as such.

He's a Cardassian, and yes, he also watches out for Cardassian interests. But I'm not so sure he'll put them before his personal interests. For example he must have known that entering an alliance with the Dominion was a dangerous gamble, and that these were people you should only double cross if you were absolutely certain you could get away with it, yet he was willing to risk the future of his homeworld on it. Possibly in hope of elevating the status of Cardassia, but most definitely in hopes of increasing his own status. Winn is similar. I'll agree to them 'not being evil' to the extent that they were nuanced characters and also had shades of grey or even good things.

And again, the founders really only act from a background of having been hunted and abused by 'solids.;

There have been people that experienced terrible things and became terrible people themselves as a result. There also have been people that have experienced the same type of terrible things or even worse and that did not become terrible people. While such trauma can help explain why people became the way they are it does not necessarily excuse their actions.

As for the prophets being the big bad, I agree that it sometimes looks as if they're just using people, even The Sisko, as pawns. Even so, they still seem to be working for a 'greater good', unlike the pah' Wraiths, who just seem to want revenge (and destruction).

I'd rather describe them as being very detached from most aspects of 'the mortal experience', including the wish to not suffer, than being 'evil'.