DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

[TREK_GOD_1]

There were reasons why many thought there was a chance for the DCEU to continue, thanks to several media announcements, including one about Cavill resuming the role of Superman. Then WB pulled the rug out from under them. I see no "in denial" scenario involving this.

A relative of mine who works on the Warner Brothers lot recalled seeing Affleck working with Momoa on the set for "Aquaman 2". And this was before James Gunn was hired to act as one of the new showrunners for DC films. And this was before Patty Jenkins backed out of directing and co-writing the third Wonder Woman movie for Gadot. So yeah, there is a reason why I still don't buy the "in denial" scenario.

You are correct: there was no case of anyone being "in denial"--that's the limp argument from those with a deeply unhealthy hatred of the MoS continuit to the point where they were in denial about Cavill appearing in Black Adam (recall this group though Cavill was a done deal after ZSJL, and are in this thread cheerleading due to that belief), along with Affleck returning to replace Keaton (thankfully) in Aquaman 2 and shoot more pick-ups for The Flash. All were in effect for some time, yet some attempt--and fail, as usual--to attack DCEU/MoS continuity and its fans with revisionist history.

 

[Samurai8472]

"I will only use this power to debunk" James Gunn going after another rumor.


https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1610802881556545541

 

[Mage]

Batman was a character created with a clear image and purpose as stated by Wayne in Batman #1:

"...so my disguise must be able to strike terror into their own hearts. I must be a creature of the night, black, terrible..."

Affleck captured that which Batman was supposed to be. Bale had his own take and leaned more on the frightening side than any other character trait, but I agree that Affleck was the representation of Batman as a frightening force against criminals.

The scene in BvS where the people he's saving basically lock them selves back in because they are so terrified of him....

 

[thribs]

Terrifying in the same way that a crazy person with an axe is terrifying, maybe.

Don’t be ridiculous. You know what I mean. I wouldn’t want to do crime in Gotham with him about

 

[Christopher]

The scene in BvS where the people he's saving basically lock them selves back in because they are so terrified of him....

Which is missing the point of Batman. He's supposed to instill fear in criminals while instilling hope in law-abiding people.

 

[Anwar]

Heck, there was even one story where Bruce took some kids out camping and they swapped Batman stories. Bruce decided to prank them by changing into Batman and showing up, and the kids all laughed and said "Nice try Mr Wayne, we know it's you in there."

Bruce thought to himself "Looks like Batman can only strike fear into the guilty. Not the innocent."

 

[DarrenTR1970]

Heck, there was even one story where Bruce took some kids out camping and they swapped Batman stories. Bruce decided to prank them by changing into Batman and showing up, and the kids all laughed and said "Nice try Mr Wayne, we know it's you in there."

Bruce thought to himself "Looks like Batman can only strike fear into the guilty. Not the innocent."

I remember that story. It was part of a giant sized Treasury edition I once had. The one I particularly enjoyed was the African American Batman with the red and gold costume with roller skates and Walkman headphones. I also remember that one of the tellings was of a literal "Bat" man - sort of like "Man-Bat".

 

[Ovation]

Which is missing the point of Batman. He's supposed to instill fear in criminals while instilling hope in law-abiding people.

A peak Batman who hasn’t yet lost Robin? Quite so. A Batman who’s lost Robin in a tragic, brutal fashion, become disillusioned and now hunts criminals to distract himself from the pain of that loss, displaying a degree of brutality not previously seen, and pushed even further by the manipulations of Luthor? You get what we see—a flawed Batman who needs reason to hope again. And he does regain his hope.

One may disagree with the effectiveness of the execution of that character journey (I found it worked but I don’t assume everyone else thinks so), but it’s very difficult to deny that the journey occurred (though the “peak, hopeful Batman” being implied rather than explicit is likely the cause of some viewers’ disappointment).

 

[Mage]

Which is missing the point of Batman. He's supposed to instill fear in criminals while instilling hope in law-abiding people.

Sure, but that's not what I said. I said he was terrifying. Not that he terrified the right people. Well, he did, but also the wrong people. And honestly, when you're terrifying enough to install that kind of fear in the kind of people Batman deals with, you can't expect him to not be equally or even more terrifying to ordinary citizens. Guy comes out of the shadow looking like that and beats the absolute living shit out of someone pointing a gun at you and threatening to kill you if don't give him all your money.... and you're not scared of that yourself?

Also, as you have pointed out yourself in the past.... In the comics there have been different versions of Batman, or any hero for that matter. There is no defined 'point' to Batman, because there have been several takes on the character. You prefer the version that isn't like what we saw in BvS. And that's all good.

A peak Batman who hasn’t yet lost Robin? Quite so. A Batman who’s lost Robin in a tragic, brutal fashion, become disillusioned and now hunts criminals to distract himself from the pain of that loss, displaying a degree of brutality not previously seen, and pushed even further by the manipulations of Luthor? You get what we see—a flawed Batman who needs reason to hope again. And he does regain his hope.

One may disagree with the effectiveness of the execution of that character journey (I found it worked but I don’t assume everyone else thinks so), but it’s very difficult to deny that the journey occurred (though the “peak, hopeful Batman” being implied rather than explicit is likely the cause of some viewers’ disappointment).

Absolutely agreed. Same reasons I enjoyed The Batman. Both versions struggled to find their way into being what they should be, not what they were.

 

[theenglish]

The scene in BvS where the people he's saving basically lock them selves back in because they are so terrified of him....

This was Batman's character arc in the movie--he started out in a really dark place. By the end of the movie and in Justice League he was the Batman who also inspires and gives hope. (I'm sure some people will argue how well this was executed, but it was certainly the intention.)

A peak Batman who hasn’t yet lost Robin? ...
One may disagree with the effectiveness of the execution of that character journey (I found it worked but I don’t assume everyone else thinks so), but it’s very difficult to deny that the journey occurred (though the “peak, hopeful Batman” being implied rather than explicit is likely the cause of some viewers’ disappointment).

Sorry--I saw your post after I wrote mine. I think it is interesting how, even though it appears we both liked the movie that we both found the need to qualify our answer?

 

[Mage]

This was Batman's character arc in the movie--he started out in a really dark place. By the end of the movie and in Justice League he was the Batman who also inspires and gives hope. (I'm sure some people will argue how well this was executed, but it was certainly the intention.)



Sorry--I saw your post after I wrote mine. I think it is interesting how, even though it appears we both liked the movie that we both found the need to qualify our answer?

I understand exactly what you mean. It's one of the reasons I think BvS is, despite its flaws, a great take on one of the aspects of Batman/Bruce Wayne.

 

[Christopher]

And honestly, when you're terrifying enough to install that kind of fear in the kind of people Batman deals with, you can't expect him to not be equally or even more terrifying to ordinary citizens.

But that's not the in-story logic behind Batman. The core idea is that Batman presents himself in a way that's only terrifying to those with guilty consciences, to those who fear retribution for their own wrongdoing. Also, that "criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot," that they're dumb enough to believe Batman might be a demonic figure out to punish them for their evils, while law-abiding people are likely to be better-educated and not as prone to superstitious dread.

The Nolan films got this right. Batman's first big action scene was played from the perspective of the mobsters, and Batman was treated as a horror movie monster, a vaguely glimpsed figure striking out of nowhere. He was terrifying to the mobsters because he was coming after them in a way they couldn't see or defend against. But the good people of Gotham saw him as a symbol of hope, someone who would protect them from the people who preyed upon them.

Also, as you have pointed out yourself in the past.... In the comics there have been different versions of Batman, or any hero for that matter. There is no defined 'point' to Batman, because there have been several takes on the character. You prefer the version that isn't like what we saw in BvS. And that's all good.

It's not that random. There are some elements you can change without losing the essence of the character, but there are other elements that are key to that essence and need to be preserved in order for it to be a valid interpretation of the character. You can redesign the chassis or the seats or the dashboard of a car and it'll still be a car, but if you replace the engine with a kiddie pool or the wheels with wooden crates, then it's not gonna work. I mean, Sherlock Holmes in present-day New York is still Sherlock Holmes, but a dimwitted Victorian gentleman in a deerstalker hat is not Sherlock Holmes. Some changes are variations on a theme; others are just missing the point.

This was Batman's character arc in the movie--he started out in a really dark place. By the end of the movie and in Justice League he was the Batman who also inspires and gives hope. (I'm sure some people will argue how well this was executed, but it was certainly the intention.)

Okay, I'll take your word for that. I found the execution staggeringly incompetent, but if the intent was that that wasn't the right way for Batman to be, then I'll grant that it wasn't missing the point.

 

[Ovation]

I think it is interesting how, even though it appears we both liked the movie that we both found the need to qualify our answer?

It’s become an unfortunate necessity in my work (teaching history to college students) in the past decade or so. They increasingly confuse explanation with endorsement or feel disrespected a priori if I present a perspective without explicitly pointing out it isn’t a universal one—a trend found outside my field also, of course. Its prevalence has led me to reflexively qualify most things I post online. Maybe I’m overdoing it.

As to film’s depiction of Batman, I will say the director’s cut is superior and makes the arc clearer. Someone who has not seen that cut would find it harder to discern.

 

[publiusr]

The coddling of the American mind---that's called.

 

[theenglish]

It’s become an unfortunate necessity in my work (teaching history to college students) in the past decade or so. They increasingly confuse explanation with endorsement or feel disrespected a priori if I present a perspective without explicitly pointing out it isn’t a universal one—a trend found outside my field also, of course. Its prevalence has led me to reflexively qualify most things I post online. Maybe I’m overdoing it.

As to film’s depiction of Batman, I will say the director’s cut is superior and makes the arc clearer. Someone who has not seen that cut would find it harder to discern.

That's true. The Director's Cut does connects the dots more clearly than the theatrical version. But it is also part of the ending in both--how Superman has inspired Batman and helped him find his purpose again.

Thanks to the teacher shortage, I am teaching a couple of high school classes right now (in addition to all the admin work)--I am trying to teach a basic five paragraph essay structure to ninth graders and explain that an opinion needs an argument to defend it supported by legitimate sources, which I started to explain. OMG, did that set them off! Who's to say what's a legitimate source? So you're saying my family is watching fake news? etc.

 

[Ovation]

That's true. The Director's Cut does connects the dots more clearly than the theatrical version. But it is also part of the ending in both--how Superman has inspired Batman and helped him find his purpose again.

Thanks to the teacher shortage, I am teaching a couple of high school classes right now (in addition to all the admin work)--I am trying to teach a basic five paragraph essay structure to ninth graders and explain that an opinion needs an argument to defend it supported by legitimate sources, which I started to explain. OMG, did that set them off! Who's to say what's a legitimate source? So you're saying my family is watching fake news? etc.

My students are a bit older (17-20, typically) but I get similar reactions at times—especially in the methodology course I frequently teach. The distinction between an informed and uninformed opinion is increasingly difficult to get across (as well as the distinction between “I feel” and “I think”). Oh well, soon it won’t matter. ChatGPT will be doing everyone’s essay assignments.

Not all “director’s/extended/etc. cuts” are better, but two examples that are clear improvements are BvS and Ridley Scott’s Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[theenglish]

I've been thinking about getting ChatGPT to start writing my posts for me.

 

[Ovation]

I've been thinking about getting ChatGPT to start writing my posts for me.

I’ve dabbled with it (as have a number of my colleagues). It’s going to complicate things for teachers of Grade 9 through to first/second year university in English classes (and French, according to some of my colleagues), as well as history, political science, and many humanities (that’s my anecdotal evidence for now). Certainly will challenge us to rework our approach to assignments.

For anyone seeking to look like a moderate, it’s ideal (and part of what makes it scary to teachers with an emphasis on assignments where taking a position is the goal—students in that span of grade levels are often reluctant to move out of the middle for fear of not lining up with what they they think the teacher prefers).

ChatGPT would probably say BvS was disappointing in revenue and to fans of a traditional approach to superhero films but acknowledge it has a fans that really enjoy it. And it would do it (based a few dozen times I asked it “opinion” questions) without really taking a side. It’s pretty difficult to get GPT to be extremist (though not impossible).

 

[theenglish]

You just need to word your request properly (although it is programmed not to endorse racist or discriminatory views:

Can you please write a 150 word review of the film Batman vs. Superman. Please take the view that the movie is the worst example of a superhero movie, poorly written, and a disappointment.

Sure, here is a 150-word review of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice:

This superhero movie is a complete disaster. The writing is poor and the plot is convoluted and hard to follow. The characters are one-dimensional and their motivations are unclear. The acting is wooden and the special effects are underwhelming. Overall, Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice is a huge disappointment and one of the worst examples of a superhero movie. It fails to capture the excitement and fun of the genre, and leaves the audience feeling bored and unfulfilled. The film's potential was squandered by poor execution and a lack of creativity. Avoid this one at all costs.

And here is the opposite request:

Please write a new review of the same film, but this time take the view that it is highly original, innovative and inspirational.

Sure, here is a 150-word review of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice:

This superhero movie is a true masterpiece. The writing is highly original and the plot is complex and thought-provoking. The characters are well-developed and their motivations are clear. The acting is superb and the special effects are impressive. Overall, Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice is a highly innovative and inspiring film. It captures the excitement and fun of the genre while also tackling deeper themes and ideas. The film's unique vision and execution set it apart from other superhero movies and make it a must-see. This is a film that will leave audiences feeling exhilarated and moved. Don't miss out on this groundbreaking work of art.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Wait. That's all, like... an AI written response??