Did Enterprise fandom dissipate exceptionally thoroughly?

[Dukhat]

Ligosians, I believe.

You mean Ligonians? Yes, both sexes were allowed to have multiple husbands and wives. But that's not quite ironclad evidence of polyamory. That's more like a social contract for property ownership, at least that was how it was implied in the episode.

 

[fireproof78]

You mean Ligonians? Yes, both sexes were allowed to have multiple husbands and wives. But that's not quite ironclad evidence of polyamory. That's more like a social contract for property ownership, at least how it was implied in the episode.

True enough, and thank you for remembering the species name.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Is there another one?

Ligosians, I believe.

According to Memory Alpha, in addition of Denobulans and Ligonians are the Rahkari, Skrreea, Taresians, and Bolians.

There was a Bolian on SNW. Maybe explore it there?

 

[Dukhat]

There was a Bolian on SNW. Maybe explore it there?

I'd much rather debate about why they needed to use a Boilan in the first place in a show that ostensibly takes place before TOS. It's like they can't get out of TNG-mentality.

 

[FederationHistorian]

I'd much rather debate about why they needed to use a Boilan in the first place in a show that ostensibly takes place before TOS. It's like they can't get out of TNG-mentality.

Maybe because the Bolians were referenced in ENT’s Ferengi episode. So therefore, Starfleet must have met the Bolians sometime between ENT and SNW. Even though it would have made as much sense, if not more, for Starfleet to meet the Bolians between TOS and TNG.

 

[Dukhat]

Maybe because the Bolians were referenced in ENT’s Ferengi episode. So therefore, Starfleet must have met the Bolians sometime between ENT and SNW.

And that was a mistake on ENT's part, since they couldn't get out of their TNG-mentality either.

Even though it would have made as much sense, if not more, for Starfleet to meet the Bolians between TOS and TNG.

Agreed.

 

[FederationHistorian]

And that was a mistake on ENT's part

This is said, but it doesn’t seem to be hurting SNW like it would for ENT. Though TBF, the audience had time to acclimatize to what SNW would be like because of the first two seasons of DIS, so anything that would normally be considered out of place doesn't get a reaction anymore. ENT wasn't as lucky. All they had to go on was FC, and the Cochrane parts were only half the movie.

 

[Tuskin38]

I'd much rather debate about why they needed to use a Boilan in the first place in a show that ostensibly takes place before TOS. It's like they can't get out of TNG-mentality.

I don't see the issue. It was never said when they species were first encountered.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't see the issue. It was never said when they species were first encountered.

That wasn’t my point. Using a Bolian reminds me of TNG. Which I don’t want to be reminded of when I’m watching a show that takes place before TOS. It’s anachronistic to me. Just like when Pike says the term ‘Away Team.’ That’s from TNG too. They did not use that term in TOS.

 

[FederationHistorian]

I don't see the issue. It was never said when they species were first encountered.

And it wasn’t specified if humans had met Ferengi pre-TOS, or met Klingons pre-Romulan War, and yet both were held up as strikes against ENT that factored into loss of viewership.

Its only fair for it to held as a criticism of SNW. Especially since there are a bunch of species that could be used from both the TOS movies and the Kelvinverse movies. DIS has even been making references to them and showing a few of those species outright. Something DIS does get consistently right is the references to TOS species. No reason SNW can't since they are filmed in the same location as DIS.

That wasn’t my point. Using a Bolian reminds me of TNG. Which I don’t want to be reminded of when I’m watching a show that takes place before TOS. It’s anachronistic to me. Just like when Pike says the term ‘Away Team.’ That’s from TNG too. They did not use that term in TOS.

So, if the Akaali and Xindi Insectoids appeared in SNW, like they did in S4 of DIS, is that okay? Or does it remind you of ENT too much?

 

[at Quark's]

I think it's a vain hope to expect that series produced decades after TOS, but set in a pre-TOS era will not use any of the stuff introduced in newer series, as long as that stuff doesn't contradict anything from TOS (for example those Bolians, they very well could have been around in the TOS Federation, we simply never saw them, so I have no problem with that). I have more problems with stuff that (apparently) does contradict things established in TOS and they didn't shy away from even that.

 

[Dukhat]

And it wasn’t specified if humans had met Ferengi pre-TOS, or met Klingons pre-Romulan War, and yet both were held up as strikes against ENT that factored into loss of viewership.

Its only fair for it to held as a criticism of SNW. Especially since there are a bunch of species that could be used from both the TOS movies and the Kelvinverse movies. DIS has even been making references to them and showing a few of those species outright. Something DIS does get consistently right is the references to TOS species. No reason SNW can't since they are filmed in the same location as DIS.



So, if the Akaali and Xindi Insectoids appeared in SNW, like they did in S4 of DIS, is that okay? Or does it remind you of ENT too much?

I haven’t seen DSC season 4 because I’ve grown tired of that show. So it doesn’t matter to me what they do. And I don’t even know who the Akaali are. I think you totally missed my point anyway.

 

[Finn]

I haven’t seen DSC season 4 because I’ve grown tired of that show. So it doesn’t matter to me what they do. And I don’t even know who the Akaali are. I think you totally missed my point anyway.

The Akaali are the pre-industrial civilization the NX-01 first visited early in ENT, the one with a plague and Archer befriended that woman who identified the shop where aliens were running an operation underground. By the 32nd Century, those folks had been warp capable for a bit while.

And I'm not sure they are really arguing with you. I'm not sure they are really missing your point. Chill a bit.

Oh, and I have absolutely no problem with the Ferengi showing up in ENT or Bolians in SNW. TOS didn't introduce us to every race known to the UFP in the 2260s, especially those part of the Federation or Starfleet at the time.

 

[Dukhat]

And I'm not sure they are really arguing with you. I'm not sure they are really missing your point. Chill a bit..

Um, no. My point was that using concepts from a show that takes place 100 years after the show I’m currently watching takes me right out of that show. So asking me if I have a problem with concepts from a show that took place 100 years before completely misses the point.

 

[Finn]

Not taking it as seriously doesn't mean one is missing your point.

 

[Dukhat]

Not taking it as seriously doesn't mean one is missing your point.

I don't think @FederationHistorian is taking things any less seriously than I am. Regardless, I’d prefer to let people speak for themselves.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Um, no. My point was that using concepts from a show that takes place 100 years after the show I’m currently watching takes me right out of that show. So asking me if I have a problem with concepts from a show that took place 100 years before completely misses the point.

Yes, the Bolians should be discovered in between TOS and TNG and left to sequel shows. But its not hard canon. At no point did TNG/DS9/VOY ever say Starfleet did not meet the Bolians or have Bolian crewmembers during the TOS era. Just like virtually no Andorians in those shows didn’t mean that the Andoria left the Federation.

And why shouldn’t it be asked if aliens never seen in the series prior to ENT or the Kelvinverse would break the immersion were they to appear in a TOS environment? Particularly for you, who wants the show to reflect TOS as it was in the ‘60s, Instead of how they are remaking and updating the TOS era for today? Since ENT tried to reflect TOS to a degree while introducing new aliens but lost viewers, DIS tried to reflect TOS to a degree while visually updating everything but gained intense criticism, and the Kelvinverse offered its take on TOS in what was explicitly an alternate universe, and some fans just did not take to Abrams’ vision. Nothing is coming close to 100% accuracy of TOS unless its animated.

 

[Dukhat]

Yes, the Bolians should be discovered in between TOS and TNG and left to sequel shows. But its not hard canon. At no point did TNG/DS9/VOY ever say Starfleet did not meet the Bolians or have Bolian crewmembers during the TOS era. Just like virtually no Andorians in those shows didn’t mean that the Andoria left the Federation.

And why shouldn’t it be asked if aliens never seen in the series prior to ENT or the Kelvinverse would break the immersion were they to appear in a TOS environment? Particularly for you, who wants the show to reflect TOS as it was in the ‘60s, Instead of how they are remaking and updating the TOS era for today? Since ENT tried to reflect TOS to a degree while introducing new aliens but lost viewers, DIS tried to reflect TOS to a degree while visually updating everything but gained intense criticism, and the Kelvinverse offered its take on TOS in what was explicitly an alternate universe, and some fans just did not take to Abrams’ vision. Nothing is coming close to 100% accuracy of TOS unless its animated.

But again, It's not about the Bolians. That was just one example. It's about the idea that you can't realistically make a prequel taking place ten years before TOS (and in ENT's case, 100 years before it) and constantly use concepts from TNG. You might as well have made your prequel take place in 2350 instead of 2250. Or better yet, don't make a prequel at all if you can't get TNG out of your head. Just make a show that takes place in the TNG era if that's what your show is going to feel like.

But enough about DSC/SNW, since this is not the topic for that. In ENT's case, I constantly felt like I was watching Voyager Jr. rather than a legitimate prequel taking place during the days before the formation of the Federation. That's because all the writers, producers, set decorators, etc. had literally just come off of making VOY, and they didn't know how to do anything else but make a show like they just finished. Nobody was that creative enough, and UPN wasn't that savvy enough.

 

[Finn]

What would have made Enterprise a "legimate" prequel?

The problem is doing a prequel to TOS while making it futuristic to the eyes of fans expecting a sci-fi show in 2001 when the sets and makeups and special effects used in TOS wouldn't have appeared futuristic.I mean TOS used what looks like floppy disks....and called it tapes IIRC.

 

[at Quark's]

Constantly referring to concepts from newer shows can be immersion breaking, I get that.

Though I suppose for me such annoyance would be more in the direction of 'phase pistols' instead of 'phasers', 'photonic torpedoes' instead of 'photon torpedoes', 'polarize the hull plating' instead of 'raise shields', etc. ...