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Spoilers TOS: Harm's Way by David Mack Review Thread

Rate TOS: Harm's Way

  • Outstanding

    Votes: 11 42.3%
  • Above Average

    Votes: 8 30.8%
  • Average

    Votes: 4 15.4%
  • Below Average

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • Poor

    Votes: 2 7.7%

  • Total voters
    26
I'm not the world's greatest fan of TOS and if I do buy their books I tend to prefer ones that don't focus on the big three but loved Vanguard so picked it up.

And it was fine and I'm sure fans of TOS will love it but big chunks were devoted to Kirk and Spock's reactions to recent TV episodes and none of that was of any interest to me given I've not watched those episodes for years.

They are Vanguard characters and Shedai in it but it's very much a TOS book in tone and for me it didn't add much to the Vanguard story.

Mara and Babitz were the best things in it, I enjoyed their moments but otherwise I wasn't massively engaged. Voted average but as I say I reckon bigger TOS fans than me will likely enjoy it more
 
Babitz, as written here, was definitely one of the best new non-canonical characters I've seen in TrekLit in quite a while. Constantly complaining, and yet when the chips are down, she's willing to do crazy-brave things to save the life of another. And
having her fall asleep aboard the Kepler at the end, on the way back, after complaining about how Razka was sleeping on the way down, was perfect closure to that plot thread.
 
I was surprised to hear Spock's thought that 'fear isn't real; it's just a neurochemical reaction'. I'd expect a Vulcan to treat neurochemical reactions as elements of reality :-)

Listening to the audiobook, it's quite fun to imagine the K's being led by a famous French president :-)
 
Potential elephant in the room question... as someone who holds it's impossible to reconcile TOS with Discovery / Strange New Worlds, does this book retcon Vanguard into the later, or still leave everything in the pre-existing Vanguard books intact? I really liked the Vanguard series, so would like to re-visit that storyline.
 
Potential elephant in the room question... as someone who holds it's impossible to reconcile TOS with Discovery / Strange New Worlds, does this book retcon Vanguard into the later, or still leave everything in the pre-existing Vanguard books intact? I really liked the Vanguard series, so would like to re-visit that storyline.

There's a lot of Trek that's "impossible" to reconcile with other Trek if you get hung up on details. Like TWOK turning Khan's multiracial band into a bunch of blond Aryan types who are inexplicably in their 20s despite being stranded as adults 15 years earlier. Or TNG season 4 saying the Federation had been at war with Cardassia up to a year earlier, despite season 2 saying the Federation had been at peace so long that Picard considered war games an unnecessary atavism. Or Klingons changing their appearance every so often. Fiction is mutable, evolving as it goes. None of it is impossible to reconcile, because none of it is real and thus all of it can be rewritten. If there's a fundamental contradiction, you just say, as Roddenberry did with ST:TMP, that the original story was inaccurate and the new story is correcting its errors.

What we've always done in the novels is to assume that it's all one universe and do our best to reconcile and synthesize the different versions. For instance, when I wrote The Higher Frontier, I had Spock allude to his childhood dyslexia as revealed in Discovery. New productions aren't in conflict with the old; they're a source of new ideas and insights we can use to inform our creations. It doesn't matter if different stories have conflicting details; our job is to tell a story that's consistent within itself, and part of the fun is coming up with creative ways to synthesize ideas from different productions and show how they can fit together even if it superficially seems like they can't. The pretense that Trek has ever been a consistent universe is bull if you look closely; the only reason we've ever been able to pretend it was consistent was that we were willing to fudge or overlook the many, many contradictions it contains, even within a single series, let alone between different ones.
 
Potential elephant in the room question... as someone who holds it's impossible to reconcile TOS with Discovery / Strange New Worlds, does this book retcon Vanguard into the later, or still leave everything in the pre-existing Vanguard books intact? I really liked the Vanguard series, so would like to re-visit that storyline.

It's pretty much the pre-DSC/SNW status-quo. I remember Mack posting about how he was trying to make sure the novel was turned in before SNW premiered and started establishing things that contradicted Vanguard that he'd be obligated to make the new novel consistent with.
 
There's a lot of Trek that's "impossible" to reconcile with other Trek if you get hung up on details. Like TWOK turning Khan's multiracial band into a bunch of blond Aryan types who are inexplicably in their 20s despite being stranded as adults 15 years earlier. Or TNG season 4 saying the Federation had been at war with Cardassia up to a year earlier, despite season 2 saying the Federation had been at peace so long that Picard considered war games an unnecessary atavism. Or Klingons changing their appearance every so often. Fiction is mutable, evolving as it goes. None of it is impossible to reconcile, because none of it is real and thus all of it can be rewritten. If there's a fundamental contradiction, you just say, as Roddenberry did with ST:TMP, that the original story was inaccurate and the new story is correcting its errors.

There's a thread in the general section of the forum on TOS vs Discovery/SNW continuity that ran at least 20 pages long, so I'll try to be very brief in addressing a massive divide in the fandom. First off, I do acknowledge that the official line is that TOS and Discovery/SNW are equally canon, and tie in fiction that completely went with pre-existing TOS continuity at some point likely would have problems in the approval process. And yes, 1966-2005 Star Trek continuity isn't without blemishes... several of which have been covered in the novels. A branch of the Trill caught the Klingon augment virus (oh and they are responsible for the Conspiracy parasites too). Miri's planet was a displaced parallel universe Earth. Omega IV was cultural contamination. The Borg both assimilate everyday people and incubate drones from infancy that would be a blank slate when cut off from the Collective. Greg Cox's Khan trilogy points out so many plotholes and then retcons them that it makes it far harder to watch "Space Seed" or TWOK without seeing them. When I was a kid, the local video store didn't carry TWOK, so I only say it a few years after TSFS and TVH, very edited to fit the ad breaks on TV, so the Saavik actor change was even more jarring. And then I finally saw "Space Seed" itself. A one paragraph explanation could reconcile Picard not seeing the Cardassian skirmish as a war, or a short story could try and tackle why he didn't freak out about human genetic engineering in "Unnatural Selection".

Yet, 99.9% of 1966-2005 Star Trek reconciles. Almost every single frame of Discovery / SNW breaks with the entirety of TOS/TAS, which then spills into the TOS movies and all the Berman era. The only one paragraph explanation for that difference giving both sides equal status is a parallel universe. The greatest reason I'm still a fan of Star Trek and not other childhood shows is the interconnected lore. If nothing is real and everything can be rewritten, that means everything is built on quicksand, foreshadowing is impossible, connections to the past are completely subjective without rhyme or reason, and you're just stuck with an infinite present without stakes. Even the Abramsverse respected this and created their own parallel universe sandbox to play in, albeit after throwing a grenade into 2387. Occam's razor is Discovery / SNW is yet another parallel universe. Much easier to accept than the incendiary TOS being de facto thrown out.

What we've always done in the novels is to assume that it's all one universe and do our best to reconcile and synthesize the different versions. For instance, when I wrote The Higher Frontier, I had Spock allude to his childhood dyslexia as revealed in Discovery. New productions aren't in conflict with the old; they're a source of new ideas and insights we can use to inform our creations. It doesn't matter if different stories have conflicting details; our job is to tell a story that's consistent within itself, and part of the fun is coming up with creative ways to synthesize ideas from different productions and show how they can fit together even if it superficially seems like they can't. The pretense that Trek has ever been a consistent universe is bull if you look closely; the only reason we've ever been able to pretend it was consistent was that we were willing to fudge or overlook the many, many contradictions it contains, even within a single series, let alone between different ones.

Fair enough. But I have a stack of over 60 books I haven't gotten around to reading. Almost 100 titles in the Netflix queue. 10 TV series on Blu-ray like The Prisoner, Warehouse 13, Orphan Black, Dark Matter, and The 4400 I've yet to see. Picard season 3 will jump to the top of that queue. Anything connected to Discovery / SNW, not so much. Hence my asking about this particular novel.
 
Mods, apologies for the double post. It's very dangerous for me to write anything about Star Trek continuity because it can quickly eat up an hour.

It's pretty much the pre-DSC/SNW status-quo. I remember Mack posting about how he was trying to make sure the novel was turned in before SNW premiered and started establishing things that contradicted Vanguard that he'd be obligated to make the new novel consistent with.

That's very promising to hear, thanks
 
There's a thread in the general section of the forum on TOS vs Discovery/SNW continuity that ran at least 20 pages long, so I'll try to be very brief in addressing a massive divide in the fandom.

I know, and have known for decades, that the divide exists. I also know which side I fall on. Ever since ST:TMP, there have been fans who vocally insisted that it was "impossible" to reconcile the new version's inconsistencies with the old. (Why do Klingons have ridges now? Why does the tech look so much more futuristic?) Yet writers and other fans have always managed to find ways to reconcile them, so they forget that the inconsistencies ever existed, and assume the inconsistencies in the next new thing are unprecedented and impossible to reconcile. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Besides... as professional Trek authors, we are under contract to the owners of the franchise to write tie-in fiction according to the parameters they lay out. And the parameters for Trek tie-in fiction have always been to treat everything onscreen as a single universe, except for that brief period in the '90s when we weren't allowed to reference the animated series. So our job is to treat everything as a single universe, and to reconcile the inconsistencies as best we can. It doesn't matter if the fans have differing opinions, because we're not just spectators, we're hired contractors who have a job to do.

And speaking as someone who's spent nearly the past 20 years concocting creative fixes for the many, many, many continuity holes in Star Trek old and new, I can tell you that it's only "impossible to reconcile" if you're unwilling to try. It's all just pretend anyway. None of it actually happened; it's just made-up stories for enjoyment. So it's simplicitly itself to pretend it fits together even when it doesn't. It's just about being willing to suspend disbelief and play along with the illusion that it's a consistent universe. Because every bit of it is illusion already.


Yet, 99.9% of 1966-2005 Star Trek reconciles. Almost every single frame of Discovery / SNW breaks with the entirety of TOS/TAS, which then spills into the TOS movies and all the Berman era.

No. It looks different for the same reason Saavik looks different in two different movies, or the same reason Spock or Janeway is live-action in some stories and a cartoon in others. Because it's not real. Because it's a bunch of creative people getting together to create an interpretation of something imaginary, and it's the prerogative of different artists to interpret the same subject differently. The underlying fictional realm being depicted is meant to be the same one, regardless of differences in the details of the depiction.

TOS contradicted the hell out of itself all the damn time, because it was making the whole thing up as it went. We pretend it fits together, because we want it to. So the only reason to be unwilling to pretend the new stuff fits is because you don't want to.
 
I know, and have known for decades, that the divide exists. I also know which side I fall on. Ever since ST:TMP, there have been fans who vocally insisted that it was "impossible" to reconcile the new version's inconsistencies with the old. (Why do Klingons have ridges now? Why does the tech look so much more futuristic?) Yet writers and other fans have always managed to find ways to reconcile them, so they forget that the inconsistencies ever existed, and assume the inconsistencies in the next new thing are unprecedented and impossible to reconcile. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Besides... as professional Trek authors, we are under contract to the owners of the franchise to write tie-in fiction according to the parameters they lay out. And the parameters for Trek tie-in fiction have always been to treat everything onscreen as a single universe, except for that brief period in the '90s when we weren't allowed to reference the animated series. So our job is to treat everything as a single universe, and to reconcile the inconsistencies as best we can. It doesn't matter if the fans have differing opinions, because we're not just spectators, we're hired contractors who have a job to do.

And speaking as someone who's spent nearly the past 20 years concocting creative fixes for the many, many, many continuity holes in Star Trek old and new, I can tell you that it's only "impossible to reconcile" if you're unwilling to try. It's all just pretend anyway. None of it actually happened; it's just made-up stories for enjoyment. So it's simplicitly itself to pretend it fits together even when it doesn't. It's just about being willing to suspend disbelief and play along with the illusion that it's a consistent universe. Because every bit of it is illusion already.




No. It looks different for the same reason Saavik looks different in two different movies, or the same reason Spock or Janeway is live-action in some stories and a cartoon in others. Because it's not real. Because it's a bunch of creative people getting together to create an interpretation of something imaginary, and it's the prerogative of different artists to interpret the same subject differently. The underlying fictional realm being depicted is meant to be the same one, regardless of differences in the details of the depiction.

TOS contradicted the hell out of itself all the damn time, because it was making the whole thing up as it went. We pretend it fits together, because we want it to. So the only reason to be unwilling to pretend the new stuff fits is because you don't want to.
"I'm sorry, this is becoming a speech."
"You're a Star Trek author, sir. You're entitled."
"Hmm -- not entitled to ramble on about something everyone knows. Carry on."
 
Ok I'll set the timer for 10 minutes. Don't want this to eat up several more hours of my day or further hijack the thread... And, mods, I'll let this go from here on unless this specific novel makes it especially relevant in hindsight.

I know, and have known for decades, that the divide exists. I also know which side I fall on. Ever since ST:TMP, there have been fans who vocally insisted that it was "impossible" to reconcile the new version's inconsistencies with the old. (Why do Klingons have ridges now? Why does the tech look so much more futuristic?) Yet writers and other fans have always managed to find ways to reconcile them, so they forget that the inconsistencies ever existed, and assume the inconsistencies in the next new thing are unprecedented and impossible to reconcile. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I'm very much a Watsonian in regards to Star Trek. TOS to TMP is all covered in dialogue or eventually in ENT. When it first came out, there were a few complaints about ENT vis a vis TOS, but ENT season 4 cleaned most of it up. I mean, sure, where are all the Enterprise NX-01 models on the Enterprise D or E, but again that's a minor footnote in light of the more recent developments. Discovery / SNW to TOS is like 1000 times whatever differences there might be between TOS and the TOS movies or Berman 24th century shows or ENT. The valence / polarization is just that much greater.

If Discovery / SNW insists on doing it's own thing to the point that Berman & Braga's greatest detractors circa the early 2000's couldn't possibly imagine the depths of possible canon violations, it's a free country, and CBS / Paramount does own Star Trek after all, and is free to throw out over 50 years of established continuity at it's own risk. But if you want to market media tie ins toward die hard Star Trek fans, don't expect the more continuity oriented to buy everything with the brand on it without advance research. Hopefully someone does some market research into this, and I see this becoming more of an issue in the future without some kind of multiverse dividing line for easy delineation.

It's kinda crazy to think that from now on I'll be having to ask this about any new TOS novel I might be interested in picking up. Luckily I have a large backlog, so it's mostly a moot point save for novels such as something revisiting Vanguard that I'd want to pick up immediately.
 
It's pretty much the pre-DSC/SNW status-quo. I remember Mack posting about how he was trying to make sure the novel was turned in before SNW premiered and started establishing things that contradicted Vanguard that he'd be obligated to make the new novel consistent with.
Either way, as far as I can tell, nothing in this book clashes with SNW or DSC.

It's kinda crazy to think that from now on I'll be having to ask this about any new TOS novel I might be interested in picking up.

As Christopher said above, Trek tie in authors have to go along with canon, and since Paramount says DSC/SNW/PIC/LDS/PRO are all the same universe as the previous series and movies, none of the new books will contradict them.
Not intentionally at least.

So the answer to your question will most likely be yes most of the time.

and I see this becoming more of an issue in the future without some kind of multiverse dividing line for easy delineation.
I doubt it based on the sampling of readers on the forum. I think you're the only one I've seen who really cares of the new stuff is referenced or not.
 
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Either way, as far as I can tell, nothing in this book clashes with SNW or DSC.



As Christopher said above, Trek tie in authors have to go along with canon, and since Paramount says DSC/SNW/PIC/LDS/PRO are all the same universe as the previous series and movies, none of the new books will contradict them.
Not intentionally at least.

So the answer to your question will most likely be yes most of the time.


I doubt it based on the sampling of readers on the forum. I think you're the only one I've seen who really cares of the new stuff is referenced or not.

Continuity wise, my assessment is highly informed by the arguments of Ex Astris Scientia and Trekyards treating Discovery / SNW as an alternate universe but Picard, Lower Decks, and Prodigy as still within the pre-existing canon. I just hope Picard season 3 really is as good as some people say and it makes throwing out the 24th century part of the Litverse "worth it".

My main concern here was how Vanguard would be treated in light of Discovery / SNW. Last year I'd bought the three Coda books, got a very bad feeling about where that storyline was going in the first 30 pages or so, checked the spoilers to see if my guess was right, and then decided to shelve reading them until I'd fully caught up with the Litverse (I'd only gotten up to The Fall) and wanted to then tackle it's ahem ultimate conclusion. From what I could tell, Coda was not without controversy, hence my greater apprehension here.
 
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You think the ST canon is full of inconsistencies? Try the Holmes canon or the Oz canon! They're both single-author canons (Doyle for Holmes, and Baum for Oz), and yet they're riddled with far more inconsistencies per story than we see in ST.

Hell, ADF's Humanx Commonwealth canon is relatively consistent, and yet it has its inconsistencies: Thranx tandem-surfing with Human friends (serving as living surfboards!) in (if memory serves) Orphan Star, but in later books, they're terrified of immersion in water, because the location of their breathing spicules makes them extremely vulnerable to drowning.
 
Discovery / SNW to TOS is like 1000 times whatever differences there might be between TOS and the TOS movies or Berman 24th century shows or ENT.

No, it isn't. People always, always say that the newest work's discrepancies are insurmountably greater than the previous one's, but that's an illusion. It's just that we've had more time to reconcile the old contradictions in our heads, to concoct rationalizations for them or just forget about them and focus more on the consistent overall narrative we've chosen to build for ourselves. The new inconsistencies feel more radical because we haven't had time to rationalize them to ourselves yet.

You're not saying anything that I haven't heard fans say over and over again. They said it about Kelvin. They said it about Enterprise. They said it about TNG. They said it about the movies. Every single time, it was the most drastic change and the worst betrayal ever and could nevah, evah be accepted as True Trek. Then, a decade later, they're including it among the True Trek that the next new thing has irreconcilably contradicted and betrayed.

And so what if the differences are greater? It's just stories. It's not an "alternate universe," it's just a reinterpretation of the imaginary universe. At this point, I'm fine with assuming that TOS was just a rough interpretation, an imperfect dramatization as Roddenberry thought of it when he made TMP and TNG, and that the new version is the more "accurate" portrayal of the 23rd century. After all, a lot about TOS sucks in retrospect. It was sexist as hell, it made limited, token efforts at racial inclusion, and a lot of its technology and futurism haven't aged well. So I'm fine with assuming that the stories of TOS generally happened, but without the dated details of the 1960s presentation of them.

Just think of it like Marvel Comics. The basic events of the comics published in the 1960s are still accepted as having happened in the universe's canonical past, but the period details have been updated as the timeline moves forward, so that, say, Reed Richards is a veteran of an imaginary, undated war in the recent past rather than WWII, and Peter Parker's high school classmates had smartphones when he was bitten by the spider. What matters to the canon is not the surface details, but the core events and characters. The rest is just interpretation.

Granted, there are some cases where I'd rather go the other way and assume it's the modern shows that are taking inaccurate liberties, like their tendency to make interstellar journeys far shorter than they used to be, or SNW's totally wrongheaded take on the Gorn. But that's fine. They're both fictional. They're both artistic interpretations of the same underlying reality. They both take certain liberties with it for dramatic or stylistic effect. Sometimes the differences are greater than others, but the differences are in the depiction of the subject, not in the subject itself. Have the same model pose for, say, Andrew Wyeth and Pablo Picasso, and the resulting paintings will look drastically different. But it's still the same model.
 
Other than Picard and Prodigy referencing Discovery/SNW designs of course.

Of course. It's all one canon. A canon is not an immutable reality, it's a collection of fictional works, and that means it evolves and adapts as new works introduce new ideas.

Other than Kelvin (which is a borderline case because it's overtly an alternate timeline within the same fictional reality), the only Trek productions that may have been intended by their creators to be out of continuity with their predecessors were The Wrath of Khan, which implicitly ignored TMP (only reusing its sets and stock FX for budgetary reasons) and freely rewrote details of "Space Seed" to fit its new story, and the early seasons of TNG, which Roddenberry apparently intended as a soft reboot of the universe leaving out the parts he didn't like. But both those productions were later integrated more explicitly with the overall canon -- brought back into the fold, as it were. Those aside, it has always been the conceit of any Trek production that it's in the same continuity as every previous Trek production, even if it reinterprets or contradicts some of the details of those earlier productions. The idea is that the overall events and character arcs happened as depicted, even if they didn't necessarily happen exactly as depicted. Fans may want to believe that different productions are in separate continuities, but what they want has no bearing on what the creators actually do. The shows and films themselves will freely draw on everything, past and present.
 
Finished the audiobook. Greatly enjoyable, even if you missed all the previous Vanguard novels -- though then the multitude of characters might be a bit overwhelming.

While this was a really nice listen, and in general felt like meeting old friends, at a few points I had the feeling that the segment I've just read was a quick sketch. I felt some conversations were closed too early, as if the author thought 'OK, enough debating the plan, let's have all of them roll with de Gaulle's idea even though he'd been rebuked for the same idea a few minutes before', for example. Deaths of team members / allies went largely unacknowledged. Also, either I misunderstood something, or the Starfleet team was perfectly fine with leaving a wounded ally alone in a forest filled with hundreds of enemies.

I really liked the close connection to the relevant TOS episodes -- Spock, for example, was understandably not up to his usual game. I love it when a work makes the ST universe more, rather than less, coherent.

The narration by R. Petkoff is superb as always.
 
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