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DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

Back when the original announcements were made, people complained that DC was trying to force an MCU connected universe. Whether that was legitimate or not, the WB's plans fell apart spectacularly after 2017 with multiple attempts at course corrections.

They were hoping to do what the MCU did in less time and with quicker box office results.

Man of Steel to Batman VS Superman to Justice league

Then that all feel apart

https://www.latimes.com/entertainme...ara-warner-bros-interview-20190227-story.html

“The universe isn’t as connected as we thought it was going to be five years ago,” Tsujihara told The LA Times. “You’re seeing much more focus on individual experiences around individual characters. That’s not to say we won’t at some point come back to that notion of a more connected universe. But it feels like that’s the right strategy for us right now.”
 
I Again, the whole reason they are shutting down this version of the DCU: these are not good movies and the general audience knows that.

That is your opinion, not substantiated fact. For example, Zack Snyder's Justice League was not a cheap production to return to, and sorry to burst the bubble of the hate groups who chase after Snyder, but no studio was going to greenlight a second turn at a film (read: the bastardized, Whedon-ized form of it) if there was no wide audience support for it, and obviously, the well-loved films which set ZSJL up. Business does not work that way. Further, long after Snyder was not directly attached to the franchise, more films--including 4 yet to be released--all are part of a film universe the audience wanted to see, otherwise, WB would have made a hard reboot before WW84.

With Gunn, et al., sweeping the MoS continuity away, one has to wonder if he--like the despicable Whedon before him--will try to Marvel-ize DC's content. The world witnessed the disaster attempted Marvel-ization created before, and it was a notably failed experiment which--in theory--should warn anyone off fro repeating.
 
I am a HUGE Marvel fanboy. When I was growing up, I was Marvel over DC when reading comics. My friends and I used to play the Marvel Super Heroes RPG (FASERIP forever!). I have unabashedly loved the MCU since its inception, and there are only 1 or 2 movies out of all the movies and TV shows that I haven't liked to loved. Having said all of that, if the announcement came out tomorrow that Feige was fired and they were shutting down the MCU, I would be disappointed in that decision, but I would still go see Ant Man and the Wasp Quantumania because it looks like a fun movie, even though Kang wouldn't move forward as he appears to. I would still go see Guardians of the Galaxy 3 because I want to see it. I would still go see the Marvels even if there is no Ms Marvel season 2, or Captain Marvel 3, or Monica Rambeau wouldn't get her own movie/series. Because I love these characters and this world. The idea that I wouldn't just because they're ending the MCU is just insane. The movies would still be the exact same movies either way. Aquaman 2 is going to be Aquaman 2 regardless of what happens with the DC Film Universe. The movie didn't change. So people are going to go see it because they enjoyed Aquaman. I would be SHOCKED if it made less that a billion dollars.

I would be wary of expecting Aquaman 2 to make a billion dollars even if it had incredible reviews and the death of the overarching universe had never been announced.

Black Adam was shut out of a Chinese release for, as far as I can tell, no particular reason whatsoever beyond the fact that China is less and less interested in letting any non-Chinese movies in their theaters. One look at the MCU shows how quickly this can turn into a long-running thing with China, as well, so I'll believe the remaining DC movies actually get a Chinese release when it happens.

And when you realize that Aquaman made almost a quarter of its global total in China, the possibility of the sequel not getting released there is not good news for its box office.

I am somewhat surprised by this.

I saw someone (El Mayimbe? not sure on trustworthiness) claim that the reason there has been confusion over Gal's role in the Flash is because Gal was in the Henry Cavill scene that got cut from the movie. So *a* cameo of Gal Gadot has been cut from the movie, but she also had a different cameo earlier in the film that has not been cut.
 
They were hoping to do what the MCU did in less time and with quicker box office results.

Man of Steel to Batman VS Superman to Justice league

Then that all feel apart

https://www.latimes.com/entertainme...ara-warner-bros-interview-20190227-story.html
Right, which has been my main criticism with the DC films attempt at doing a connected universe (which is separate from my criticisms about the creativity of certain individual films). They were trying to get to the big team-up far too quickly, trying to introduce major characters as "the big building blocks" in other people's films before jumping straight to the big team-up.

Part of the reason the MCU model worked (aside from being the first to really try it and managed to capture lightning in the bottle with certain casts) is that it took its time to that team-up. Not just the number of films, but also the number of years. Yes, they're pushing out a lot more films a lot faster now, but I feel like they've earned it (your mileage may vary).

Let me be very clear:

I wish the DC films were successful in following the MCU model (or a variation thereof that wasn't rushed).

I wish every single film was the same level of quality of most of the MCU films (if done differently because variety is good!).

I wish the roadmaps didn't implode several times over along the way.

I wish my enjoyment level was a lot higher.

Not just for more entertaining films but also because I'm a DC outsider beyond Batman. I want to know and love these characters like I do the Marvel characters. But the executions have left a lot to desire for.
 
There's a huge difference here though. The quality of the films. DC has been a nightmare of terrible movies one after the other. They are 'rebooting'(ie, cancelling this current iteration of the DC Universe because it's a failure) in order to establish something more coherent and better quality. We're all aware of that.

That means they have no faith in the movies they have in their pocket which they are going to release. Will people watch them? Sure. It will be a mish mash of people who don't know/care about all this background news, people who need to be entertained, people who are curious, die hard DC fans, etc...but not that many people will go. Look at Black Adam. Arguably a box office Hollywood actor like Dwayne Johnson can't salvage that wreck...although I think he did good in the part.
He's not that big a draw in the U.S.compared to the draw he has is China. The Chinese seem to really like him. My point? Black Adam not getting a release in China probably really affected its global take.
 
That's kind of the problem. Every time they don't get the box office results they feel they're entitled to, they panic and change course.

Justice League: Mortal didn't even get the chance to test the box office waters before cancellation and a course change, as well.
 
. They were trying to get to the big team-up far too quickly, trying to introduce major characters as "the big building blocks" in other people's films before jumping straight to the big team-up.

Because they just went insane with this ache to get Marvel money while they watch Marvel take C-tier characters like Guardians and print money with the first film, so DC had to compete and had to do it NOW.

So they gave up any pretense of world building that Marvel spent a decade doing.
 
You may define success/failure as you wish and I get that each of us have different thresholds of what is 'good' and 'bad' but the fact is that they are scrapping this take of the DCU because it has fallen below expectations(both financially and critically).

Restating a belief does not make it a fact. As I and others have said, it is normal for new bosses to scrap their predecessors' projects, even when they're excellent. So it does not follow that scrapping a project proves it was bad.

(Also, falling below financial expectations has even less to do with whether a movie is actually good. Citizen Kane, arguably the greatest movie ever made, was a box-office flop.)


The root of the matter is that we have been promised a film universe multiple times in the past ten years.

And the outcome proved we didn't need one. The movies that tried to "build a universe" were crap, and DC finally found its groove when it stopped worrying about the damn "universe" and just let each film be its own thing. That formula worked. It made DC distinct from Marvel rather than just another of its many lazy imitations, and it allowed the films to stand on their own merits rather than being weakened by a misguided emphasis on interconnection at the expense of the individual stories. It allowed the shared universe to exist but not override the films' own emphasis. It was working fine the way it was.

It is foolish to assume that just because Marvel has a shared universe, everyone else has to copy that formula exactly. Every studio that's tried it has failed miserably, except the Legendary MonsterVerse, which realized the same thing Marvel did, that you need to lay the foundations with strong individual films first before you earn a wider, connected universe. (Although their big crossover film, Godzilla vs. Kong, was by far the worst film in the series, proving that connection alone does not correlate to quality.)


We were then promised the new and revamped connected multiverse at the end of COIE of the CW with a fairly extensive montage promising Green Lantern and Swamp Thing amongst others.

I think that's reading too much into those cameos. They was more about trying to convey the sense of a multiverse with what footage they had to draw on, and probably to give a bit of cross-promotion to encourage CW viewers to subscribe to DC Universe (now HBO Max). They were opening the door to the possibility of future crossovers, at least with Stargirl if nothing else, but it didn't mean they already had solid plans for them. It certainly wasn't "promising" anything, just hinting at the potential.


When that fell apart, we got this idea that the Flashpoint movie would reboot their ideas again.

I think that's more a fan conjecture than a confirmed fact. I got the sense that Flashpoint was more about a) indulging Geoff Johns's obsession with that particular story and b) doing a DCEU equivalent of Crisis and Spider-Man: No Way Home, using a multiverse as an excuse for homaging and crossing over with previous film series such as Keaton Batman.



Let me be very clear: I wish the DC films were successful in following the MCU model (or a variation thereof that wasn't rushed).

And I still say the DCEU found its success when it stopped trying to follow the MCU model. The MCU already gives us that model; why do we need another one just like it? The Distinguished Competition should ideally give us something different, something that offers an alternative to Marvel's approach rather than a mere echo. And it already does that. It's done so effectively for the past four years. So it's a shame the new creators are reverting to the already-failed approach of trying to copy Marvel.
 
Restating a belief does not make it a fact.

That's fair. It works the other way too. Same way that restating yours doesn't make it any more valid or real.

As I and others have said, it is normal for new bosses to scrap their predecessors' projects, even when they're excellent. So it does not follow that scrapping a project proves it was bad.

Sorry. No. That just doesn't track. The reason they brought in Gunn and co is because things weren't working. Marvel ain't about to scrap their decades+ iteration. Why? Because it works. Feige isn't going anywhere anytime soon. DC's doesn't. That's why they are scrapping it. They tried. They really tried even doubling down with Snyder as their version of Feige....even when it was clear it wasn't working.

It takes a loooong time for people at higher levels to get the point. There's a lot of politics involved. Meanwhile they're bleeding money. No organization decides to change leadership on a whim when things are working. Only if said leader is retiring or has become problematic in some way and even then if things are kicking at 100% they won't get rid of them.

They are starting from scratch for a reason. What they had going on wasn't working. It's pretty simple. I am both sad and glad. The DC Universe has a lot to offer and I would say even the more iconic characters compared to Marvel but it's evident the difference it makes when you have someone who cares about the stories and characters(and is talented) like Feige and company do.

(Also, falling below financial expectations has even less to do with whether a movie is actually good. Citizen Kane, arguably the greatest movie ever made, was a box-office flop.)

Quite true. That's why I also mentioned critical failure. I loved Dredd. Would love to see a continuation but the revues and the money were not there.
 
He's not that big a draw in the U.S.compared to the draw he has is China. The Chinese seem to really like him. My point? Black Adam not getting a release in China probably really affected its global take.

Agreed. I think Hollywood thinks Dwayne Johnson is a bigger draw than what he actually is. Maybe he thinks he's a bigger draw than what he really is and he thought his name alone would make Black Adam a hit and therefore 'save'(?) the DC Universe.

I don't think I've ever gone to the theaters to see any movie he's been in. They just tend to be C type movies. And I like the guy. I think he's talented but it just doesn't seem to translate on screen.
 
And the outcome proved we didn't need one. The movies that tried to "build a universe" were crap, and DC finally found its groove when it stopped worrying about the damn "universe" and just let each film be its own thing.

I agree with this.

It is foolish to assume that just because Marvel has a shared universe, everyone else has to copy that formula exactly.

Thanks for calling me foolish. I agree with this too. That wasn't my point. My point is that WB has tried to sell a shared universe multiple times in the last ten years and have changed their minds about what that shared universe looks like more times than the comics have had continuity altering Crisis events during that same period.



I think that's reading too much into those cameos. They was more about trying to convey the sense of a multiverse with what footage they had to draw on, and probably to give a bit of cross-promotion to encourage CW viewers to subscribe to DC Universe (now HBO Max).
No-- it is not reading too much. It was promoting all the series in the new multiverse, some of which we got. It was promoting that in a multiverse they could have all these series that were connected even if they were on different earths.


I think that's more a fan conjecture than a confirmed fact.

That's conjecture, yes, but look at how often they have altered/reworked this movie that we still haven't seen.
 
And the outcome proved we didn't need one. The movies that tried to "build a universe" were crap, and DC finally found its groove when it stopped worrying about the damn "universe" and just let each film be its own thing. That formula worked.

You've got a great point here although we'll argue regarding DC finding their groove with the stand alone films. The reason they pushed for a universe-building approach is because that's what they thought was working for Marvel. They totally forgot about providing a good story first which is why Marvel movies are so successful. Not saying every Marvel movie is great but they are much better than DC's.

So it's not that the more 'stand alone' movies worked because they rejected 'universal continuity'. They just simply concentrated on making a better movie, getting better actors, etc...Joker and The Batman are better movies. They can easily fit into some universal continuity if they wanted.
 
I've been thinking about how Joker and The Batman can fit into an extended universe. The Joker could easily join Cavill's Superman, Black Adam and the Justice Society on Earth 2. The current Batman can easily fit into a new Earth 1 universe along with the movies that Gunn is planning right now.

I am not saying this is going to happen, but it would be cool to have Earth 1 and 2 -- and keep it at two earths on screen. Audiences can get behind that I think.
 
Sorry. No. That just doesn't track. The reason they brought in Gunn and co is because things weren't working. Marvel ain't about to scrap their decades+ iteration. Why? Because it works. Feige isn't going anywhere anytime soon. DC's doesn't. That's why they are scrapping it. They tried. They really tried even doubling down with Snyder as their version of Feige....even when it was clear it wasn't working.

This is true. Corporate will bend over backwards to keep the status quo in things that are working. Feige wanted RDJ for Civil War because that's what he wanted for CW and that's what was going going to work for some of the things he had planned going forward. Feige's boss nixed the idea, complaining that Downey cost too much.

Feige went over his boss's head and appealed directly to the Disney board.

Given Feigie's history with the MCU money print shop, things were amended so that, while his boss remained his boss on paper so that face gets saved, ever since the production of Civil War started, Feige reports directly to the Disney board.

When the golden goose is comfortable, no one rocks the boat.

In spite of a few bright spots DC is a mess and there was never going to be a recovery without clearing the board.

No, they're abandoning the MoS SCU because there's been a change in creative management.

Because, in terms of box office and critique, virtually all their efforts have failed. Chicken, meet egg.

Thanks for calling me foolish. I agree with this too. That wasn't my point. My point is that WB has tried to sell a shared universe multiple times in the last ten years and have changed their minds about what that shared universe looks like more times than the comics have had continuity altering Crisis events during that same period.

Absolutely so. There simply has been no unified voice. DC has wanted the benefits of that without putting in the work to have it.
 
Sorry. No. That just doesn't track. The reason they brought in Gunn and co is because things weren't working.

In their opinion. Things didn't fit with their vision of how things should work. My opinion is that their vision is as misguided as every other incompetent, burn-down-the-house-we-just-bought decision Zaslav has made since taking over WB. My opinion is that the DCEU has been working for the past four years, and now they're breaking something that was already fixed.


Thanks for calling me foolish.

I was calling the studios foolish. I'm fed up with seeing them repeat the same mistakes.


My point is that WB has tried to sell a shared universe multiple times in the last ten years and have changed their minds about what that shared universe looks like more times than the comics have had continuity altering Crisis events during that same period.

And my point is that they don't need a shared universe, at least not as a central element, and don't need to try so hard to get one.


No-- it is not reading too much. It was promoting all the series in the new multiverse, some of which we got. It was promoting that in a multiverse they could have all these series that were connected even if they were on different earths.

Yes, exactly. They said it could happen. That is not a guarantee that it will happen. Calling it a "promise" that crossovers would happen is absolutely reading too much into it.



So it's not that the more 'stand alone' movies worked because they rejected 'universal continuity'. They just simply concentrated on making a better movie, getting better actors, etc...Joker and The Batman are better movies. They can easily fit into some universal continuity if they wanted.

That's my point. I didn't say they rejected shared continuity, I just said they stopped prioritizing it over everything else. They let it be the background rather than the foreground. Which is how it should be. Even in the comics, the individual series tend to do their own thing most of the time and only intermittently cross over. The shared universe is a shared context, not a core narrative. That's the way the DCEU has worked from Aquaman onward, and I like it just fine that way.

For that matter, it's the way MCU Phase 4 has mostly worked too. Overall, the Phase 4 films and series follow up on Phase 3 and set up Phase 5, but do little to cross-connect to each other, with a few exceptions like Yelena's arc from Black Widow to Hawkeye, Wanda's from WandaVision to Multiverse of Madness, and Wong and Blonsky's from Shang-Chi to She-Hulk. Mostly, the series and films all exist in their own very disparate worlds with no overlap beyond the shared history, and sometimes not even that in the case of something like Moon Knight. So it's ironic that the DCEU is already working pretty much the same way as the current MCU phase, yet they believe they have to change their approach in order to "be like the MCU."
 
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