DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

[Nombrecomun]

Be honest.
If it was announced that the MCU was ending after everything ready to go was released, you don't think people would still flock to Guardians 3?

They would. Because the movie still looks amazing. Ending cinematic universe or not.

Just like people will probably see Aquaman 2 if it looks just as good. Or Flash if people want to support a criminal.

There's a huge difference here though. The quality of the films. DC has been a nightmare of terrible movies one after the other. They are 'rebooting'(ie, cancelling this current iteration of the DC Universe because it's a failure) in order to establish something more coherent and better quality. We're all aware of that.

That means they have no faith in the movies they have in their pocket which they are going to release. Will people watch them? Sure. It will be a mish mash of people who don't know/care about all this background news, people who need to be entertained, people who are curious, die hard DC fans, etc...but not that many people will go. Look at Black Adam. Arguably a box office Hollywood actor like Dwayne Johnson can't salvage that wreck...although I think he did good in the part.

 

[Nombrecomun]

I would have been ready to let go of Henry Cavill if the time was right. I don't the time was right to let go of him. And apparently, many others feel the same. As for the new DCU, enjoy it. I won't be, because I won't be watching. I've had enough.

For whatever it's worth I thought the same of Routh. I think he did an excellent job of carrying Chris Reeve's version of Clark/Superman and still somewhat making it his own. Of course the film was absolute garbage.

I initially didn't like Cavill. He looked more like a hopped up Wolverine in MoS. The characterization of Superman was way off in these movies. We finally did get a peek of Superman once he comes back from the dead in Justice League. But by then it's too late. My heart winced a bit at the mid-credit scene in Black Adam. A wasted opportunity for sure.

My point being is that we'll adapt to the new guy. It will take some time but we'll adjust....if they do it right.

 

[fireproof78]

but it is a real potentiality and is going to impact the degree to which Warner Bros. Discovery can count on relying on them (those films) as a monetary asset.

That's DC's problem. People will still see this movies. Sequel setup is a secondary consideration to a good movie.

people watch them? Sure. It will be a mish mash of people who don't know/care about all this background news, people who need to be entertained, people who are curious, die hard DC fans, etc...but not that many people will go

Too bad, so sad, I don't weep. I still see people going to see these films, regardless of sequel set up. Largely because many people, especially in the general audience, are looking for momentary entertainment not long term concern with the sequel.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I - and several others - disagree.

And yet somehow the clear communication of that differing opinion, instead of being cogently discussed, gets mocked and construed into a ridiculous assertion that all films only have merit if they're guaranteed to have sequels.

There's not a logical thought between them, so when all else fails--centered on their anti-DCEU agenda (read: Snyder) is feebly repackaged as being in favor of stand-alone films (well unless its the joined-at-the-hip MCU), fuels them, you will continue to read outright lies about the arguments made, page after page.

The number of people who skip seeing Aquaman 2, Shazam 2, Blue Beetle, and The Flash because they exist as part of a dead-end narrative even before they're released may not be huge, but it is a real potentiality and is going to impact the degree to which Warner Bros. Discovery can count on relying on them (those films) as a monetary asset.

The only long-term asset in the financial sense will likely be on physical media, forecasting some sort of "Original DCEU 4K box set" (no one is going to be satisfied with the films only being available on HBO-Max), where most popular film series flourish.

You left out the part of my comment that refers to the audiences. You’ve heard the phrase “the customer is always right”. The meaning of that phrase has been twisted and misunderstood over time, but the original meaning was to look at what the customer is actually buying, then sell more of that. Because that is what the customer wants and is willing to spend their money on so they’re always right. This is a business, first and foremost, after all.

Agreed, and those trying to argue with you are tap-dancing over the MCU beating the irrevocably locked-in Easter egg / future plotlines in existing film format into the minds of movie-goers. Again, its the reason other studios attempted the same, such as Universal, with its deflated "Dark Universe".

Most people don’t care for stories with no end. People like and want closure.

Nahhh. We are told that movie-goers just looove running narratives that just end with no continuation or resolution. I guess that's why in some alternate reality, millions spat at the idea of The Empire Strikes Back and Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan ever having another chapter, since audiences should have been satisfied with the films left off in the manner released. Narratives forming natural expectations be damned. That's the essence of the ridiculous arguments made by the little group of anti-DCEU members in this thread.

So ‘Crisis On Infinite Earths’ then. Been there, done that.

Yep, and if a universe-wide reboot is necessary, the MCU should have taken that route many years ago.

 

[Nombrecomun]

Too bad, so sad, I don't weep. I still see people going to see these films, regardless of sequel set up. Largely because many people, especially in the general audience, are looking for momentary entertainment not long term concern with the sequel.

I don't disagree with that. Yes, some people will go watch. Some people are totally fine with these mediocre offerings. Other people won't. Again, the whole reason they are shutting down this version of the DCU: these are not good movies and the general audience knows that.

You gotta also consider the expense of going to a theater, the time it takes, etc...and that the quality of these movies are not good. I'll wait until it's on some streaming channel just like I did for The Batman, Joker, Black Adam. The Batman itself would have been a struggle to watch in the theater considering it's length. I would need Depends for that!

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

So when Aquaman 2 makes more than Black Adam, what goal posts will be moved to explain that?

 

[Nombrecomun]

So when Aquaman 2 makes more than Black Adam, what goal posts will be moved to explain that?

Just curious as to how you know A2 will make more money than Black Adam? Good for WB if it does!

The only 'goal post' that would matter is if Gunn and co. reconsider keeping some of the actors/elements of this current DCU. That would be cool!

But that's not likely if they got rid off Cavill, who portrays the marquee character of this franchise. The announcement this week was analogous to popping a balloon. That feeling of deflation is palpable.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I - and several others - disagree.

And yet somehow the clear communication of that differing opinion, instead of being cogently discussed, gets mocked and construed into a ridiculous assertion that all films only have merit if they're guaranteed to have sequels.

The number of people who skip seeing Aquaman 2, Shazam 2, Blue Beetle, and The Flash because they exist as part of a dead-end narrative even before they're released may not be huge, but it is a real potentiality and is going to impact the degree to which Warner Bros. Discovery can count on relying on them (those films) as a monetary asset.

I think that last part is a reasonable assertion.

By effectively confirming a from-scratch reset, though, Warner Bros. Discovery has removed any actual Impetus for anyone, general audiences or hardcore fans of the MoS SCU, to go see the vast majority of their upcoming slate and contribute to the box office numbers thereof because, despite being desperate to make profit, they've essentially banished four movies to the proverbial 'discount bin' because they're already planning to move on from the MoS SCU regardless of how well the remaining films in it do at the box office.

However, that there is no motivation for *anyone* including general audiences to go see these movies now I would say is debatable. I guess the question is how large of a percentage of the audience would that be a deciding factor in not going to see a movie. It's surely not 100% or 0% but I don't know how anyone can know for sure.

 

[fireproof78]

these are not good movies and the general audience knows that.

Then they should succeed or fail as movies, not as sequel bait.

 

[YLu]

I - and several others - disagree.

And yet somehow the clear communication of that differing opinion, instead of being cogently discussed, gets mocked and construed into a ridiculous assertion that all films only have merit if they're guaranteed to have sequels.

If you're saying there's no reason to watch a certain film now that there's no sequel, you're saying the sequel was the only reason to watch it. I don't see how I'm misconstruing.

But... fair enough on the issue of my tone. Sometimes it's easy to forget that a message board means you're basically replying directly to people instead of throwing a general point into the inter-ether. I apologize. I still vehemently disagree with your argument, but I should've expressed it more nicely.

 

[Nombrecomun]

Then they should succeed or fail as movies, not as sequel bait.

Absolutely. A movie, episode, etc... needs to be able to tell a story on its own; not be a forum for callbacks, cameos, background references to other characters, etc...

That it may connect to a larger story is a cool feature but that's an extra. To me, that shows purposeful design, careful planning, etc... for the franchise but it shouldn't be at the expense of or in lieu of the story being told in the movie.

 

[Awesome Possum]

You left out the part of my comment that refers to the audiences. You’ve heard the phrase “the customer is always right”. The meaning of that phrase has been twisted and misunderstood over time, but the original meaning was to look at what the customer is actually buying, then sell more of that. Because that is what the customer wants and is willing to spend their money on so they’re always right. This is a business, first and foremost, after all.

See “serialized storytelling in television”. While not the first to do it, ‘Lost’ was a major hit that definitely popularized it, then others followed suit with varying degrees of success. Serialized storytelling in tv is the norm now. And plenty of shows that utilized this format got cancelled long before the end of the story, some before the story really even took off. I’ve seen plenty of people (those who came along after these shows were cancelled) lose interest in watching because there would be no end to the story.

Are there some who’ll watch anyway? Sure. They’re the minority. Most people don’t care for stories with no end. People like and want closure.





The issue isn’t so much a reboot, but feeling like movies designed to be part of a larger narrative, may not be worth one’s time if the there’s no payoff. Again, this can be mitigated by removing anything in the films that hints at a future plot points and they can reboot everything in The Flash if it involves time travel or the multiverse. Thus it acts as an ending and beginning.

Good-bye and hello.



So ‘Crisis On Infinite Earths’ then. Been there, done that.

It was basically that for Marvel. The biggest change was that Miles Morales was brought into the main Marvel universe and Dr Doom’s face wasn’t scarred up anymore. The Fantastic Four disappeared for a while to rebuild the multiverse.

 

[theenglish]

Yet the media and certain fans didn't start portraying such petitions as something negative until the ones for "Justice League" popped up.

I enjoy a lot of Snyder's work including Man of Steel and Justice League. The backlash against the petitions only started to happen (as far as I know) after it was revealed that a lot of the votes were made by bots to make the cry for his version seem much more popular than it actually was. And then the news/rumours came out that Snyder knew about this all along.

 

[Christopher]

There's a huge difference here though. The quality of the films. DC has been a nightmare of terrible movies one after the other.

I'd call that an overgeneralization. They've run the gamut from absolutely awful (BvS, the first Suicide Squad) to superb (Wonder Woman), with most of the films post-JL being at least moderately good, with WW84 being the worst.

They are 'rebooting'(ie, cancelling this current iteration of the DC Universe because it's a failure) in order to establish something more coherent and better quality. We're all aware of that.

I don't agree that it's a failure. A failure would be something like the Amazing Spider-Man universe or the Universal Monsters reboot, cancelled after one or two films. The DCEU has just kept going and had settled into a pretty stable groove. It isn't being abandoned because it's "a failure," but because, as someone said above, new bosses generally like to throw out everything the old regime did and start over.

That means they have no faith in the movies they have in their pocket which they are going to release.

Same answer. They have no faith in them because they were made by the previous people in charge, and the new people are trying to mark their territory by starting over with something new. So that doesn't mean the films aren't going to be good, it just means they're casualties of a regime change. (Remember The Spectacular Spider-Man? A terrific animated series, killed in favor of an inferior replacement when Marvel bought back the Spidey animation rights from Sony.)

 

[Prometheus59650]

Sources close to production say that Gadot is still in "The Flash"

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603866816471760897

I am somewhat surprised by this.

 

[Nombrecomun]

I'd call that an overgeneralization. They've run the gamut from absolutely awful (BvS, the first Suicide Squad) to superb (Wonder Woman), with most of the films post-JL being at least moderately good, with WW84 being the worst.




I don't agree that it's a failure. A failure would be something like the Amazing Spider-Man universe or the Universal Monsters reboot, cancelled after one or two films. The DCEU has just kept going and had settled into a pretty stable groove. It isn't being abandoned because it's "a failure," but because, as someone said above, new bosses generally like to throw out everything the old regime did and start over.




Same answer. They have no faith in them because they were made by the previous people in charge, and the new people are trying to mark their territory by starting over with something new. So that doesn't mean the films aren't going to be good, it just means they're casualties of a regime change. (Remember The Spectacular Spider-Man? A terrific animated series, killed in favor of an inferior replacement when Marvel bought back the Spidey animation rights from Sony.)

You may define success/failure as you wish and I get that each of us have different thresholds of what is 'good' and 'bad' but the fact is that they are scrapping this take of the DCU because it has fallen below expectations(both financially and critically).

Yes, WW was ok(no way was it superb but perhaps compared to the rest...) but that was like the only one that escaped bad reviews like the others. The others have been riddled with all types of problems and it shows.

Yes, the 'in between' films might be good....but I'm not counting on it considering what has followed from them. I enjoyed Shazam. I am a fan of Blue Beetle. But these people's handling of DC has been atrocious.

 

[EnderAKH]

@YLu Would you support the MCU's next slate of releases if you knew going in that Marvel Studios had already effectively declared that they were going to start their film franchise from scratch?

Because that's the equivalent to the argument that myself and others were actually making.

I am not Ylu, but as I stated above, unequivocally yes. These movies are normal movies in that they have a beginning, middle and end. Ant Man and the Wasp is the story of healing the Ghost and rescuing Janet Van Dyne from the quantum realm. Civil War is the story of Zemo's revenge, executed through setting Tony and Cap against each other. The Eternals was the story of stopping the Celestial from consuming the Earth. Shang Chi was the story of stopping his Crime Lord dad from releasing the monster. These are stories with their own beginnings, middles and ends with maybe a couple of end credits scenes to connect them to a larger narrative. But just because the end credits scenes won't matter doesn't mean the story of the movie isn't worth watching.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I am not Ylu, but as I stated above, unequivocally yes. These movies are normal movies in that they have a beginning, middle and end. Ant Man and the Wasp is the story of healing the Ghost and rescuing Janet Van Dyne from the quantum realm. Civil War is the story of Zemo's revenge, executed through setting Tony and Cap against each other. The Eternals was the story of stopping the Celestial from consuming the Earth. Shang Chi was the story of stopping his Crime Lord dad from releasing the monster. These are stories with their own beginnings, middles and ends with maybe a couple of end credits scenes to connect them to a larger narrative. But just because the end credits scenes won't matter doesn't mean the story of the movie isn't worth watching.

Same here. Like I said before, as much as I love the interconnectivity of the MCU, that's always been second to the quality of the individual films themselves.

I'm very excited to see Quantumania. Not because of the potential of setting up the next Avengers films, but because I'm fascinated by the nature of the Quantumrealm.

I'm likewise very excited about The Marvels for Carol and Monica catching up and meeting Kamala and their adventures together, regardless of whatever connection it may or may not have with the Skrulls' invasion.

And to give DC a fair shake, I really enjoyed Shazam and I'm curious to see what those characters do next. I've always been curious about Blue Beetle as a character even though I've never read any of his books.

And so on.

It's just plain silly to argue we can't enjoy and love and look forward to these films without the knowledge of what's going to happen after them.

Enjoy the journey, not the destination.

 

[Prometheus59650]

I'm very excited to see Quantumania. Not because of the potential of setting up the next Avengers films, but because I'm fascinated by the nature of the Quantumrealm.

This looks like it's going to be the first reasonably serious take on AM, and I'm curious to see if he can be more than comic relief.

Up to this point, I think the character has only worked in small doses like Civil War.

 

[theenglish]

This is a huge thread with a lot of points made. I don't know if it has been mentioned earlier, but for me, the issue with sequels/shared universes is a problem of the WB's, and now the DISCWB's (?), own making.

The root of the matter is that we have been promised a film universe multiple times in the past ten years. Back when the original announcements were made, people complained that DC was trying to force an MCU connected universe. Whether that was legitimate or not, the WB's plans fell apart spectacularly after 2017 with multiple attempts at course corrections. We were then promised the new and revamped connected multiverse at the end of COIE of the CW with a fairly extensive montage promising Green Lantern and Swamp Thing amongst others. When that fell apart, we got this idea that the Flashpoint movie would reboot their ideas again. And now, we have whatever Gunn is involved in -- again, with promises of big things across multiple films.

In all of these cases the point the production company is making is there is going to be a connected universe. This is what they are trying to sell us over and over again, but all we're getting is snake oil.

And for me, all of this is a completely separate issue as to whether I am going to see a DC movie in the theatre, rent it, or wait until it comes out on streaming. I've been a DC fan all my life and sure as s*** I am not going to miss a live action movie or series just to see the characters I love portrayed in a way I've been waiting for for decades.

But after ten years, DC has not earned my trust the way the MCU has that I am going to invest the energy and money to see these films in the theatre when they come out. I enjoyed Man of Steel, Wonder Woman, and (to an extent) Aquaman, but Suicide Squad and BvS were such huge disappointments that I now wait to hear reviews before making a decision. So far that has done me well.

I wish I had seen Birds of Prey and The Batman on the big screen and Joker and Shazam! I would not have minded, but The Suicide Squad, BvS, WW84, Justice League, and now Black Adam all make me glad I didn't waste my money. When I find 40% of your films are such huge disappointments, why would I trust any new films coming out--or why would I even want to listen to this new fancy package of connected films you are trying to sell to me when all of your previous offers have fallen apart faster than a Trump business deal--and why would I care about sequels when the first or second films have been disappointing.