What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Amasov, Jun 20, 2020.

  1. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    Another alternative is to add a new subroutine to the Doctor's triage program: if faced with a decision between two equally imperiled patients, and all standard triage subroutines are confounded, it is permissible to make a subjective decision. That way, if the Doc has to make a similar choice in the future, he can make it safely.
     
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  2. Prometheus59650

    Prometheus59650 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    This, too. It all started because there was no escape hatch from the loop.
     
  3. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    One of my favorite lines from the Trek franchise came from the "Star Trek Voyager" Season 3 episode, (3.02) "Flashback". And it came from Tuvok:

    "Ever since I entered the Academy, I've had to endure the egocentric nature of humanity. You believe that everyone in the galaxy should be like you, that we should all share YOUR sense of humor and YOUR sense of values."

    Unfortunately, the writers had Tuvok take back his words and "admit" he had been wrong. Which is another aspect of the franchise I have always disliked. Whenever a character - whether Human (like Michael Eddington) or not, make some unpleasant observation about Humanity or the Federation, they either had to admit they were wrong, be proven wrong or lectured by any of the Starfleet command officers. I still find this very irritating.
     
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  4. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In DS9's "THE JEM'HADAR", Quark rightly put Sisko in his place when he said that humans were all about tolerance and understanding of other cultures but only if they reminded humans of themselves, and also let Sisko know that Ferengi history did not have the violent history humans did.

    Sisko kept quiet because he knew Quark was right.

    Another point in DS9's favor... they called out hypocrisy more often than the other shows.
     
  5. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Ah, but that's what's so brilliant about those scenes, things like Tuvok being disillusioned with humanity or Eddington comparing the Federation to the Borg or whatever are the writers way of expressing what they know to be truths about the Federation/Starfleet/humanity/the franchise. The bit about the characters then learning the "error" of their ways or get lectured accordingly was just lip service to Gene's Vision, which was expected in the 90s and the forms had to be obeyed.
     
  6. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    How nice. I just like Tuvok's line a lot more.
     
  7. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Tuvok's line is good, too. I mention the Quark one because it's one of the few in the franchise where the hypocrisy is called out but there is no admitting they were wrong or some other form of backpedaling.
     
  8. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think that scene was absolute bullcrap for three reasons;

    1)What do past misdeeds of the human race have to do with Sisko or any human alive in the 24th century? Answer: zilch
    2)I call bullshit on the Ferengi having a less violent history. That was the stupidest attempt to make the Ferengi look more sympathetic they ever did (okay, that and them apparently being ignorant of how much cash you can make off of substance addiction in Little Green Men) I especially call bullshit on the Ferengi never having had slaves. And one of their rules is "War is Good for Business"
    3)It was extremely on the nose of the writers to have an alien to bring up slavery with the Trek main character who just happens to be African-American.
     
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  9. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    The Ferengi had slaves during that very era... they called them "females".
     
  10. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Exactly and a another episode says that Ferengi who go bankrupt become indentured servants, which isn't really all that much better.
    Considering how similar in behaviour pretty much all the humanoid species in Trek are I'd be willing to bet that they all have just as much ugliness in their past as humanity, yes, even the Betazoid.

    That whole scene is just a complete hack job when it comes to writing, an extremely stupid and nonsensical attempt to make the Ferengi more sympathetic to the audience.
     
  11. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The concentration camps and interstellar wars may very well not be a part of Ferengi history.

    It's very possible that they have never fought an interstellar war, despite a Rule of Acquisition being "War is good for business." That rule states a simple fact. (Let's be real... war is good for business in many sectors of trade, most notably weapons and technology. And if resources are cut off, but you have the supply and the means to bring it on your own, then that business can dictate whatever price it wants.)

    And concentration camps are very much a Nazi thing. Only humans had Nazis. (Not counting the Ekosians in "PATTERNS OF FORCE", since they were completely taught all Nazi things by John Gill. They never developed that on their own.)

    Regarding slavery not existing in Ferengi history, Quark could be looking at his history with rose tinted glasses. What we consider slavery also may not mean the same thing to a Ferengi. For example, the only Ferengi we have seen that can be considered slaves are their women. While I agree that they are basically slaves, we have never seen evidence of them being forced into hard labor or similar physical burdens. They were, however, never allowed to leave the home, wear clothes, and earn profit. I view it as a form of slavery, but a lot of the other signs and types of slavery do not seem to be present with Ferengi women. (They can get a monthly stipend, which is an equivalent to a Social Security check for retirees. They are taught to read. They aren't forced to work outside or in fields or do any of the hard physical labor that historically is associated with slavery.)

    I completely agree that Ferengi women are slaves at worst, and second class citizens at best. And I'm glad they got equal rights during DS9. My problem was how it went about in "PROFIT AND LACE".

    We can never forget that when dialogue like that comes from a nonhuman character, they are speaking as an alien using their values and judgments. I think when people criticize lines like that, that fact is forgotten. It's unrealistic to expect all aliens to think like a human when they make comments and comparisons of that nature.
     
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  12. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah. That was a stinker of an episode in a badly done story arc. I agree that in the 90's, they couldn't really not have things change on Ferenginar, but they could have followed the rules set in "Angel One". Say what you want about that episode, Riker's final statement made sense.

    According to "Rules of Acquisition", they actually aren't. But that's questionable, given that some degree of literacy is required in a technological society.

    Multiple human cultures (including our own) facilities built for the mechanized containment and slaughter of non-sentient living creatures. The Nazis were the only ones who did it with humans, but that doesn't mean other cultures didn't have similar things... or worse.
     
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  13. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Cardassia would like a word. :cardie:
     
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  14. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed about the "Angel One" line at the end.

    Regarding other races... possibly, but we have not heard of other races in STAR TREK having concentration camps. I have never considered slaughterhouses for cows and pigs, for example, to be on the same level as a Nazi concentration camp. Frankly, I can't understand the comparison because humans aren't a food source. Unless Soylent Green starts being sold in stores.
     
  15. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You are 100% correct. Gallitep was by definition a concentration camp. However, I was focusing on Quark comparing human and Ferengi history.

    My other post about only humans having them IS inaccurate, and thank you for the reminder.
     
  16. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't know. When I see that Quark's brother Rom had ended up leader of the Fereingi
    I know I have commented on this before, I believe the Star Trek franchise is a master at backpedaling.


    I have one last comment to make that many might find controversial. I've never liked the franchise's portrayal of the Maquis in TNG, DS9 and VOY. The franchise's portrayal of that group reminded me of how Hollywood had this tendency to portray man progressive characters and groups - either by demonizing them or portraying them as phony or ineffectual. Characters and groups can be "progressive", as long as they follow the status quo.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2022
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  17. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Quark never backpedaled. Based on what you said of Tuvok in "FLASHBACK", Tuvok certainly backpedaled.

    And Zek making Rom the new Nagus was 5 years after that line from "THE JEM'HADAR". Nearly always, any backpedaling is done within the same episode, or even the same season.
     
  18. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    Neither have I. I am certainly no militantly vegan animal rights activist (maybe vegetarian someday, though). But I understand the reality of the meat business.
     
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  19. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I wasn't referring to just the characters themselves - like Tuvok. I'm also referring to the franchise's writers and showrunners. I keep thinking of the whole revelation about the attempt at genocide against the Founders. Not long after that revelation, the show runners stuck a while Klingon Civil War arc that took actor Robert O'Reilly by surprise. The same arc in which Ezri Dax had proclaimed that the Klingon Empire was morally in trouble, conveniently forgetting about the whole mess regarding the attempt at genocide against the Founders. And there was never any follow up over the deception that dragged the Romulans into the Dominion War.


    The Maquis story arc was a mess from Day One and never got any better.
     
  20. Tallguy

    Tallguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Actually I saw a rough draft that they abandoned that was going to have Sisko and Co. found out and have all of the fallout and ramifications, undoing everything they had sacrificed for.

    [​IMG]
     
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