How To Fix DS9 Inconsistencies Within 60 Seconds...

[shivkala]

Deep Space Nine was Sisko's attempt at further explaining linear time to the Prophets. He picked events he knew they were aware of (having been right next to them/participated in some of them), and explained them linearly, so they'd have a basis to work from in understanding how linear time works. What we see is their interpretation, so any mistakes are chalked up to their misunderstandings of linear time, either by events that are out of order or strange "skips" in time.

FIXED!

 

[Farscape One]

Any episode after "Hard Time", when we're wondering why O'Brien isn't suffering from permanent PTSD. Just stick this conversation in somewhere...

SISKO: "I'm impressed, chief. Given the ordeal the Argrathi put you through, you've recovered surprisingly well."

MILES: "You can thank Julian for that. He managed to devise a therapy to target the implanted memories."

SISKO: "I thought it wasn't possible to erase them completely."

MILES: "Oh, they're not gone, not completely, but... it's kind of like the way you feel after attending an Irish wedding... you know it happened, but it's all a blur."

SISKO: "Well, whatever he did, it's obviously worked."

You know, that's perfect! That's actually the only one other thing I truly felt the writers dropped the ball on, character wise. It was probably the darkest moment in the franchise, one of our leads on the brink of suicide like that. And doing it to O'Brien, of all people, made it that much darker.

Over the years, I wondered if the suits actually did meddle here, because having a reminder of how dark it got for one of the leads might actually have been a step too far for them.

 

[Oddish]

That's why it remains in my head canon to this day that Bashir did exactly that.

 

[Farscape One]

You know, this is off topic, but speaking of Bashir and O'Brien... the goodbye between O'Brien and Bashir in the finale gets me more and more each time I see it, because I've actually lived that. I have felt like Bashir several times.

(My best friend, which we're really brothers in every way but blood, moved to Idaho for a better growing up environment for his kids, and another really close friend years ago moved to Conneticut, his old stomping grounds, for multiple reasons. Another good friend moved to Vegas. Miami really has a way of draining you.)

 

[Lynx]

Any episode after "Hard Time", when we're wondering why O'Brien isn't suffering from permanent PTSD. Just stick this conversation in somewhere...

SISKO: "I'm impressed, chief. Given the ordeal the Argrathi put you through, you've recovered surprisingly well."

MILES: "You can thank Julian for that. He managed to devise a therapy to target the implanted memories."

SISKO: "I thought it wasn't possible to erase them completely."

MILES: "Oh, they're not gone, not completely, but... it's kind of like the way you feel after attending an Irish wedding... you know it happened, but it's all a blur."

SISKO: "Well, whatever he did, it's obviously worked."

Good solution actually!

I mean, anyone else with that experience would probably end up in a nut house for the rest of his/her life.

Deep Space Nine was Sisko's attempt at further explaining linear time to the Prophets. He picked events he knew they were aware of (having been right next to them/participated in some of them), and explained them linearly, so they'd have a basis to work from in understanding how linear time works. What we see is their interpretation, so any mistakes are chalked up to their misunderstandings of linear time, either by events that are out of order or strange "skips" in time.

FIXED!

Actually a good explanation. The series should actually has started where it ended, with Sisko returning to the Prophets and his Prophet Mother to start teaching them about linear time. Sort of: "Now guys, sit down and I will tell you a story.........

You know, this is off topic, but speaking of Bashir and O'Brien... the goodbye between O'Brien and Bashir in the finale gets me more and more each time I see it, because I've actually lived that. I have felt like Bashir several times.

(My best friend, which we're really brothers in every way but blood, moved to Idaho for a better growing up environment for his kids, and another really close friend years ago moved to Conneticut, his old stomping grounds, for multiple reasons. Another good friend moved to Vegas. Miami really has a way of draining you.)

Honestly, I'm in the same situation since I've been moving around a bit.
Now back where I started, there are at least two places from which I sometimes miss my friends and the good times. The problem is that I really like it where I am now and moving back to any of those other places wouldn't solve anything since a lot of things had changed there and nothing is what it is. Changes to the worse was actually one reason that I left a place where I had the best days of my life.

So the goodbye beteen Bashir and O'Brien hits me the same way but for reversed reasons. As does the whole episode.

Personally I have never liked how the series ended. I would have liked the good, old crew remain at the station for future adventures in books and possible movies. OK, Sisko could have stayed with the Prophets for a while, educating them about linear time (see quoted post above) and then returned. The same for Odo.

O'Brien leaving the station was only wrong, not only for the friendship with Bashir but laso for his carreer. It would have been like Mick Jagger quitting The Rolling Stones after the world-wide success in 1964-65 to become a school teacher in music. Not to mention Keiko having the whole of Bajor to eplore for her bothanic studies.

In the Lynxverse, they are all back on the station.

In the Gray Universe, I watched What We Leave Behind a couple of weeks ago, with the same feelings I've described above. But fortunately there is a reset button. On Christmas Eve, we will have the holy button-push cermony when I sit down in front of my TV with a little glass of Irish Whiskey to watch Emissary again!

 

[Lynx]

Okay, here is an explanation. (For fun, of course.)

O'Brien beamed Picard back as a preteen in "Rascals". Picard becomes an adult again, but still stomps his foot around and tells O'Brien he will make him pay for that experience.

2 episodes later (in-universe), he ends up at Deep Space Nine with a single hollow pip instead of his two solid ones. Plus his yearly torture episodes. (Three times in season 2, with "ARMAGEDDON GAME", "WHISPERS", and "TRIBUNAL".)

Okay, here is an explanation. (For fun, of course.)

O'Brien beamed Picard back as a preteen in "Rascals". Picard becomes an adult again, but still stomps his foot around and tells O'Brien he will make him pay for that experience.

2 episodes later (in-universe), he ends up at Deep Space Nine with a single hollow pip instead of his two solid ones. Plus his yearly torture episodes. (Three times in season 2, with "ARMAGEDDON GAME", "WHISPERS", and "TRIBUNAL".)

Ah, you're really up to something here!

As we can see of the Stardaters, the events in Rascals takes place at Stardate 46235.7 (Friday, 28 March 2369).
Then comes the events in A Fistful Of Datas at Stardate 46271.5 (Thursday 10 Apr 2369), the events in The Quality Of Life which takes place at Stardate 46307.2, (Wednesday 23 April 2369 ) and the events in Chain Of Command which takes place between Stardate 46357.4 (Sunday, 11 May 2369) and Stardate 46360.8 (Monday, 12 May 2369). I assume that those official Stardates counts for the days when Picard was hold prisoner and tortured by Gul Mardred,

Then O'Brien is transferred to Deep Space Nine at Stardate 46379.1 (Monday 19 May 2369) in the SD9 episode Emissary.

As we can see, O'Brien is not visible during the events between Stardate 46235.7 (Friday 28 March 2369 and Stardate 46379.1 (Monday 19 May 2369) when he all of a sudden shows up on Enterprise to say goodbye to Captain Picard.

It's about one and a half month!

So what did actually happen between those weeks?

Was Picard so annoyed with O'Briens performance during Rascals that he actually demoted him? Was O'Brien court-martialed and sent to prison? And were the friendly scenes between Picard and O'Brien in Emissary the result of Picard getting second thoughts of his treatment of O'Brien, got him released from prison and re-instated in Starfleet again-but with a lower rank and O'Brien being grateful for that?

Or was it still about O'Brien spiking Picards tea with Irish Whiskey so that Picard got drunk an made a fool of himself during a reception for some Admiral on Enterprise?

Or was Keiko involved?

KEIKO O'BRIEN: I can't stand another day in this stupid tin can of a ship. I wan't you to be re-assigned to some base on a planet where there are sunshine, gardens, flowers, trees and a blue sky.
MILES O'BRIEN: I'll talk to Picard and see what I can do.

Some weeks later:
MILES O'BRIEN: I've fixed it. I will be transformed to the Bajoran sector in about two weeks.
KEIKO O'BRIEN: Great! I knew that you would come up with something! I've heard that Bajor is such a wonderful world, the whole planet is like a garden and....
MILES O'BRIEN: There's just one problem?
KEIKO O'BRIEN: (Angry) Now what?
MILES O'BRIEN: We're gonna live at a space station above the planet called Deep Space Nine. And I've been demoted. Picard became angry as hell when I wanted to be transferred. He called me an ungrateful SOB who have thown away my chances in Starfleet and messed up my carreer.
KEIKO O'BRIEN: Oh Miles.........

So there's still a mystery to solve.

As for O'Briens yearly round of torture, I don't think that Picard have as much influence that he can persuade the T'Lani, the Kellerun, the Parada and the Cardassians (well he might have got in touch with Gul Mardred after rerlationships between the Federation and cardassia got more friendly) to order a recurring torture of O'Brien. I must have more to do with some ancielt curse or so.

Maybe something for further investigations as well?

 

[Farscape One]

Good solution actually!

I mean, anyone else with that experience would probably end up in a nut house for the rest of his/her life.



Actually a good explanation. The series should actually has started where it ended, with Sisko returning to the Prophets and his Prophet Mother to start teaching them about linear time. Sort of: "Now guys, sit down and I will tell you a story.........



Honestly, I'm in the same situation since I've been moving around a bit.
Now back where I started, there are at least two places from which I sometimes miss my friends and the good times. The problem is that I really like it where I am now and moving back to any of those other places wouldn't solve anything since a lot of things had changed there and nothing is what it is. Changes to the worse was actually one reason that I left a place where I had the best days of my life.

So the goodbye beteen Bashir and O'Brien hits me the same way but for reversed reasons. As does the whole episode.

Personally I have never liked how the series ended. I would have liked the good, old crew remain at the station for future adventures in books and possible movies. OK, Sisko could have stayed with the Prophets for a while, educating them about linear time (see quoted post above) and then returned. The same for Odo.

O'Brien leaving the station was only wrong, not only for the friendship with Bashir but laso for his carreer. It would have been like Mick Jagger quitting The Rolling Stones after the world-wide success in 1964-65 to become a school teacher in music. Not to mention Keiko having the whole of Bajor to eplore for her bothanic studies.

In the Lynxverse, they are all back on the station.

In the Gray Universe, I watched What We Leave Behind a couple of weeks ago, with the same feelings I've described above. But fortunately there is a reset button. On Christmas Eve, we will have the holy button-push cermony when I sit down in front of my TV with a little glass of Irish Whiskey to watch Emissary again!

Actually, I thought it very realistic that half the crew go their separate ways. Just like real life, people move on to different jobs and places, especially in an organization like Starfleet.

 

[fireproof78]

Actually, I thought it very realistic that half the crew go their separate ways. Just like real life, people move on to different jobs and places, especially in an organization like Starfleet.

Indeed. Static crews is probably the least appealing aspect to me in Star Trek.

On topic, with O'Brien's demotion, I had wondered if he was an initial OCS candidate but decided to not follow through and remain as an enlisted crewmember. But, I don't recall when that transition in his rank happened either. So, perhaps something to do with Captain Maxwell?

 

[Lynx]

Actually, I thought it very realistic that half the crew go their separate ways. Just like real life, people move on to different jobs and places, especially in an organization like Starfleet.

Indeed. Static crews is probably the least appealing aspect to me in Star Trek.

On topic, with O'Brien's demotion, I had wondered if he was an initial OCS candidate but decided to not follow through and remain as an enlisted crewmember. But, I don't recall when that transition in his rank happened either. So, perhaps something to do with Captain Maxwell?

Realistic maybe, but oh so sad and boring.
And devastating for storytelling.

Not funny or enjoying to read a DS9 relaunch book (or some possible follow up in a series) where almost all of the great characters from the series are gone.

I just have to watch current NCIS to realize that.
Honestly, I can't stand what that series has become due to good characters missing and being replaced by uninteresting characters.

As for the Maxwell incident, it took place at Stardate 44429.6 (Tuesday, 06 Jun 2367), actually almost two years before the events in Rascals which did take place at Stardate 46235.7 (Friday, 28 March 2369) and the events in Chain Of Command which happened between Stardate 46357.4 (Sunday, 11 May 2369) and Stardate 46360.8 (Monday, 12 May 2369 and also before O'Briens transfer to Deep Space Nine at Stardate 46379.1 (Monday 19 May 2369) and O'Brien wasn't demoted until after the events in Rascals.

So there must have been something else, unless he was involved in some attempt to get Maxwell out of prison.

 

[Oddish]

MILES O'BRIEN: We're gonna live at a space station above the planet called Deep Space Nine. And I've been demoted. Picard became angry as hell when I wanted to be transferred. He called me an ungrateful SOB who have thown away my chances in Starfleet and messed up my carreer.
KEIKO O'BRIEN: Oh Miles.........

Funny, but Miles actually specifically states ("A Man Alone", I think) that if he transferred from DS9, he'd have to give up his promotion.

 

[fireproof78]

Realistic maybe, but oh so sad and boring.
And devastating for storytelling.

Not funny or enjoying to read a DS9 relaunch book (or some possible follow up in a series) where almost all of the great characters from the series are gone.

Depends on the story. I know we will probably agree to disagree on this point but I cannot stand static form storytelling. As much as I disagree with things like TMP, at least it felt like there was movement to the characters. NCIS, while sad that some characters left, also flowed very nicely in terms of progression. Or, one of my favorite shows currently, Brooklyn 99, actively acknowledged character progression and taking it to a logical conclusion.

Keeping it always open ended eventually becomes disenchanting because there's not room for growth or change or possibility. For some, that's fine. For me, it's annoying storytelling. I won't say "devastating" because, well, accepting change as a part of life is something important for me.

Mileage will vary.

 

[kkt]

Ah, you're really up to something here!

As we can see of the Stardaters, the events in Rascals takes place at Stardate 46235.7 (Friday, 28 March 2369).
Then comes the events in A Fistful Of Datas at Stardate 46271.5 (Thursday 10 Apr 2369), the events in The Quality Of Life which takes place at Stardate 46307.2, (Wednesday 23 April 2369 ) and the events in Chain Of Command which takes place between Stardate 46357.4 (Sunday, 11 May 2369) and Stardate 46360.8 (Monday, 12 May 2369). I assume that those official Stardates counts for the days when Picard was hold prisoner and tortured by Gul Mardred,

Then O'Brien is transferred to Deep Space Nine at Stardate 46379.1 (Monday 19 May 2369) in the SD9 episode Emissary.

As we can see, O'Brien is not visible during the events between Stardate 46235.7 (Friday 28 March 2369 and Stardate 46379.1 (Monday 19 May 2369) when he all of a sudden shows up on Enterprise to say goodbye to Captain Picard.

It's about one and a half month!

So what did actually happen between those weeks?

Was Picard so annoyed with O'Briens performance during Rascals that he actually demoted him? Was O'Brien court-martialed and sent to prison? And were the friendly scenes between Picard and O'Brien in Emissary the result of Picard getting second thoughts of his treatment of O'Brien, got him released from prison and re-instated in Starfleet again-but with a lower rank and O'Brien being grateful for that?

Or was it still about O'Brien spiking Picards tea with Irish Whiskey so that Picard got drunk an made a fool of himself during a reception for some Admiral on Enterprise?

Or was Keiko involved?

KEIKO O'BRIEN: I can't stand another day in this stupid tin can of a ship. I wan't you to be re-assigned to some base on a planet where there are sunshine, gardens, flowers, trees and a blue sky.
MILES O'BRIEN: I'll talk to Picard and see what I can do.

Some weeks later:
MILES O'BRIEN: I've fixed it. I will be transformed to the Bajoran sector in about two weeks.
KEIKO O'BRIEN: Great! I knew that you would come up with something! I've heard that Bajor is such a wonderful world, the whole planet is like a garden and....
MILES O'BRIEN: There's just one problem?
KEIKO O'BRIEN: (Angry) Now what?
MILES O'BRIEN: We're gonna live at a space station above the planet called Deep Space Nine. And I've been demoted. Picard became angry as hell when I wanted to be transferred. He called me an ungrateful SOB who have thown away my chances in Starfleet and messed up my carreer.
KEIKO O'BRIEN: Oh Miles.........

So there's still a mystery to solve.

As for O'Briens yearly round of torture, I don't think that Picard have as much influence that he can persuade the T'Lani, the Kellerun, the Parada and the Cardassians (well he might have got in touch with Gul Mardred after rerlationships between the Federation and cardassia got more friendly) to order a recurring torture of O'Brien. I must have more to do with some ancielt curse or so.

Maybe something for further investigations as well?

Interesting take, and I grant that it's been over 20 years since I watched "Rascals", but I don't remember O'Brien doing anything particularly wrong during that episode. (Heck, Picard didn't even bust Barclay for some pretty serious conduct unbecoming.) And promoting O'Brien right afterward seems improbable. Committing some sin so serious as to be demoted would have been reason to forget about future promotions.

I can't really improve on Memory Alpha's exhaustive analysis of O'Brien's incredible shifting rank, but I lean toward he had some sort of temporary or warrant commission on the Enterprise that expired through no fault of his. Probably that's when he was offered a commission and declined on account of those impossible to keep clean white dress uniforms.

 

[Oddish]

That sounds as good as any explanation for some really dumb retconning. Maybe it was something specific to the Enterprise.

 

[Lynx]

Funny, but Miles actually specifically states ("A Man Alone", I think) that if he transferred from DS9, he'd have to give up his promotion.

But that was when he had realized that Sisko valued his work and might promote him.

Depends on the story. I know we will probably agree to disagree on this point but I cannot stand static form storytelling. As much as I disagree with things like TMP, at least it felt like there was movement to the characters. NCIS, while sad that some characters left, also flowed very nicely in terms of progression. Or, one of my favorite shows currently, Brooklyn 99, actively acknowledged character progression and taking it to a logical conclusion.

Keeping it always open ended eventually becomes disenchanting because there's not room for growth or change or possibility. For some, that's fine. For me, it's annoying storytelling. I won't say "devastating" because, well, accepting change as a part of life is something important for me.

Mileage will vary.

I guess that I think different in all that. But it can be different from series to series.
CSI NY had some changes in the later seasons but was still great to watch. As for NCIS, the series was at its best the first two seasons, Kate leaving in season 3 was a big loss as I see it but Ziva was a great replacement. When the series lost, Ziva, Tony and Abby during some seasons, it was a heavy blow which NCIS never really recovered from but the series was still good to watch. But in season 18 when Jack, Ellie and main character Gibbs left to be replaced by no-no's and the writing had become lousy, I just couldn't watch it anymore. I'm now rewatching it from the beginning and it strikes me how incredible good it was with the original cast, sharp dialogue and great stories.
As for Voyager, it took me one change in the cast to lose interest and stop watching.

I'm very much into the quality of the characters. If a series have great characters, there can be "love at first sight" with me. That actually happened when I watched CSI NY, NCIS and Voyager. With all respect, it took a little longer for me to become a fan of TNG and DS9. TNG was a bit slow in the start and I had expected something better but slowly started to grow and became a favorite. As for DS9, I found it good but not more when I first watched season 1. Unfortunatley the channel which aired it cancelled it after one season and it took me years to finally get the opportunity to watch it from the beginning to the end and realise how incredible GOOD it is!

So characters are important to me and if a good character goes and is replaced by someone I don't like, then my interest might vanish too.

Interesting take, and I grant that it's been over 20 years since I watched "Rascals", but I don't remember O'Brien doing anything particularly wrong during that episode. (Heck, Picard didn't even bust Barclay for some pretty serious conduct unbecoming.) And promoting O'Brien right afterward seems improbable. Committing some sin so serious as to be demoted would have been reason to forget about future promotions.

I can't really improve on Memory Alpha's exhaustive analysis of O'Brien's incredible shifting rank, but I lean toward he had some sort of temporary or warrant commission on the Enterprise that expired through no fault of his. Probably that's when he was offered a commission and declined on account of those impossible to keep clean white dress uniforms.

Memory Alpha's analysis may be correct but gives no reasons for O'Brien being demoted. Not to mention that it's quite boring. There must be something more, something interesting hiding by the cover of official explanations.

 

[fireproof78]

So characters are important to me and if a good character goes and is replaced by someone I don't like, then my interest might vanish too.

Characters are important to me too. But, that doesn't make the story devastated just because of a change I don't like. Otherwise, I would have given up on JAG in season 2, NCIS when Kate left, SG-1 at Season 6, MASH at season 4. Good storytelling makes use of change not avoiding it.

 

[Lynx]

Characters are important to me too. But, that doesn't make the story devastated just because of a change I don't like. Otherwise, I would have given up on JAG in season 2, NCIS when Kate left, SG-1 at Season 6, MASH at season 4. Good storytelling makes use of change not avoiding it.

We obviously have different opinions about this.

As for me, sadly enough I have quit watching all the three NCIS series due to good characters out and bad characters in.

As for Star Trek, I didn't like that Tasha and Jadzia were killed off, it would have been better if they had gotten other assignments and could possiblly had returned in some episodes.

But TNG had the decency not to trying to replace Tasha, even if Ro laren was a good try later on and I actually like Ezri Dax.

As for Voyager, I guess I don't have to go into details. I quit when Kes was kicked out, did an attempt to start watching again two years later but quit definitely after that episode in season 6 when Kes was brought back only to be humiliated and destroyed. OK, I actually watched Endgame, which was a big mistake, I wish that I nedev had done that.

As for ENT and DSC I quit after watching five episodes ofboth due to bad characters and bad stories. The same for NCIS Hawaii with its weak characters which are all the same and due to the fact that the series looks like a bad copy of Hawaii 5-0 which at least was very good in the first seasons.

But in many cases, my interest for a series is based of the combination of characters I really like and exciting stories. And if a character I like leaves and is replaced by a bad character, it might ruin my interest for a series.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

That's why it remains in my head canon to this day that Bashir did exactly that.

And now it exists in all of ours now as well, thank you

 

[Ragitsu]

KEIKO O'BRIEN: Oh Miles.........

Wow: she's even sexy when she cries.

 

[fireproof78]

But in many cases, my interest for a series is based of the combination of characters I really like and exciting stories. And if a character I like leaves and is replaced by a bad character, it might ruin my interest for a series.

It might for me as well. But, it largely depends on what is done with the characters, but few things will ruin a story for me if I'm already invested in the world. Like I said, if I gave up on a series due to change of characters, or changes I didn't like, the list of TV shows I would have given up on would be excessively long. But, on the flip side, it takes a significant and well done characters and stories at the beginning to get me interested, otherwise I will be done after two episodes (like with Voyager, or NCIS: LA).

 

[flandry84]

Just thinking back to the pilot when the Chief was transferring over to the station.Sure Picard turned up but where were the guys lining the corridor like they did for Worf?
(I know the actors would have to hired on and credited for their appearances but O’Briens departure from the Enterprise seemed rather low-key).