How would you change the show?

[Oddish]

There are people who hated "LIVING WITNESS"? First I have heard this... I have heard nothing but praise regarding it, with good reason.

There was a Youtuber who actually put Living Witness on their list as Voyager's best episode. Don't remember offhand which one.

And "SCORPION" most certainly isn't the worst Borg use on VOYAGER. It's actually one of the best.

Agreed. And 8472 had potential as well, both as an adversary and possibly as a future ally against the Borg. Too bad neither possibility went anywhere.

 

[Anwar]

There are people who hated "LIVING WITNESS"? First I have heard this... I have heard nothing but praise regarding it, with good reason.

It gets some love now, but for years the only thing anyone talked about was "The Doctor can't be backed up, this is a stupid story".

It wasn't until more recently that the fans decided "Okay fine, I can't let that insignificant thing go but I guess there's something entertaining about this."

The message about the dangers of revisionist history, Picardo's usual great acting, the well done characters, the wackiness of the Incorrect History crew. The audience saw NONE of that, all they cared about was the Backup EMH plot point and they let it ruin the whole episode for them.

You can't win.

And "SCORPION" most certainly isn't the worst Borg use on VOYAGER. It's actually one of the best.

The audience hated that there was a single species out there capable of being immune to assimilation and could destroy the Borg in normal combat and that the Borg couldn't adapt to. That Voyager dared to create such a new alien species was just seen as another black mark against the series.

Of course, if the 8472 aliens had been introduced in TNG, then no one would have complained.

You can't win.

There was a Youtuber who actually put Living Witness on their list as Voyager's best episode. Don't remember offhand which one.

Like I said, that's a recent development. All the episode got when it first aired was hatred.

Agreed. And 8472 had potential as well, both as an adversary and possibly as a future ally against the Borg. Too bad neither possibility went anywhere.

Once the writers realized the audience hated them, that killed their interest in continuing to use them.

Why bother making a story about them if you know it's just going to get panned, start to finish?

 

[Farscape One]

I am sick of the 'if TNG did it first, then it would have been accepted' argument about certain things VOYAGER did. There's no way to know that because it didn't happen on TNG.

Those kind of statements usually come from tantrums or bratty people, and aren't really argunents that present any actual facts or evidence.

 

[Anwar]

I am sick of the 'if TNG did it first, then it would have been accepted' argument about certain things VOYAGER did. There's no way to know that because it didn't happen on TNG.

But it's true, if the 8472 aliens showed up in TNG for its version of "Scorpion" there wouldn't nearly as many complaints.

IE, if in "Q Who?" when Q teleports the Enterprise to that system the Borg destroyed, it's in the middle of a battle between the Borg and the 8472 aliens.

NO ONE would've complained that the 8472 aliens were the Borgs' equals and could defeat them.

Those kind of statements usually come from tantrums or bratty people, and aren't really argunents that present any actual facts or evidence.

Again, all "Living Witness" got for years was "The EMH can't be backed up, this is a stupid story". No attention was paid to all the good there, just that one thing.

The audience didn't care about anything Voyager did right, only what it did wrong.

 

[Farscape One]

But it's true, if the 8472 aliens showed up in TNG for its version of "Scorpion" there wouldn't nearly as many complaints.

IE, if in "Q Who?" when Q teleports the Enterprise to that system the Borg destroyed, it's in the middle of a battle between the Borg and the 8472 aliens.

NO ONE would've complained that the 8472 aliens were the Borgs' equals and could defeat them.



Again, all "Living Witness" got for years was "The EMH can't be backed up, this is a stupid story". No attention was paid to all the good there, just that one thing.

The audience didn't care about anything Voyager did right, only what it did wrong.

Untrue, because it did not happen like that. You can't just make up that argument and call it true.

And I have heard, for years, nothing but good about "LIVING WITNESS", even among people who talk about the backup module for The Doctor.

 

[Anwar]

Untrue, because it did not happen like that. You can't just make up that argument and call it true.

I'll use another example. "Descent", where the Enterprise D uses a Solar flare to destroy a Borg ship. If Voyager had done the same trick, the reaction would be "Please, a Borg ship could easily survive a solar flare. These idiot writers are terrible."

Likewise, if TNG had introduced the 8472 aliens in "Q Who?" at the same time as the Borg, no one would complain that an alien race existed that could defeat the Borg.

And I have heard, for years, nothing but good about "LIVING WITNESS", even among people who talk about the backup module for The Doctor.

Now, yes. But for the first 20 years or so, all the episode got was "The EMH doesn't have a backup, this whole story makes no sense. Garbage."

"Let he who is without sin" from DS9 got a better reception than "Living Witness" did. I think that says it all.

 

[Farscape One]

I'll use another example. "Descent", where the Enterprise D uses a Solar flare to destroy a Borg ship. If Voyager had done the same trick, the reaction would be "Please, a Borg ship could easily survive a solar flare. These idiot writers are terrible."

Likewise, if TNG had introduced the 8472 aliens in "Q Who?" at the same time as the Borg, no one would complain that an alien race existed that could defeat the Borg.



Now, yes. But for the first 20 years or so, all the episode got was "The EMH doesn't have a backup, this whole story makes no sense. Garbage."

"Let he who is without sin" from DS9 got a better reception than "Living Witness" did. I think that says it all.

There is no chance that "LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN..." got better reception than "LIVING WITNESS". You are living in some kind of dream world to think that ever happened.

I clearly can't take you seriously on this matter.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Anwar]

There is no chance that "LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN..." got better reception than "LIVING WITNESS". You are living in some kind of dream world to think that ever happened.

I told you, the audience couldn't let go of the "EMH Backup" thing and let it ruin the entire story for them. "Let he who is without sin" didn't have that, so there was no "plot hole" for them to get mad over.

And again, if TNG had introduced the 8472 aliens in "Q Who?" they'd have gone over better.

 

[Dee1891]

I told you, the audience couldn't let go of the "EMH Backup" thing and let it ruin the entire story for them. "Let he who is without sin" didn't have that, so there was no "plot hole" for them to get mad over.

And again, if TNG had introduced the 8472 aliens in "Q Who?" they'd have gone over better.

You don't really know that. And neither do I or anyone else.

 

[Farscape One]

I told you, the audience couldn't let go of the "EMH Backup" thing and let it ruin the entire story for them. "Let he who is without sin" didn't have that, so there was no "plot hole" for them to get mad over.

And again, if TNG had introduced the 8472 aliens in "Q Who?" they'd have gone over better.

Just repeating what you said isn't going to make it a more true statement, or change facts.

The fact is that that particular DS9 episode always was looked at badly, even by some of the producers. "LIVING WITNESS" has had a huge amount of praise from the audience, and not just the last few years. From at least 1999 onward (this was when I first went onto the internet), I have heard virtually univeral praise for this episode. I'll agree that some people did point out, including myself, the backup module never being mentioned before, but even people mentioning that still called it a good or great or wonderful episode.

Even attempting to put those two episodes in the same paragraph is ludicrous.

Maybe a few people did let it stop them from enjoying the episode, but it definitely was NOT the audience by and large, which you claim. That's like saying 20 people out of 2 million hated TNG and saying 'the audience hated TNG'. Really, dude?

And there is no way 8472 could even have been introduced in season 2 of TNG... that kind of full CGI wasn't really available at that time. Not without it being prohibitively expensive, anyway. ("Q Who?" was already way too expensive, which is part of the reason why season 2 ended with the only clip show in the franchise.)

You don't really know that. And neither do I or anyone else.

Precisely. Thank you.

 

[Anwar]

You don't really know that. And neither do I or anyone else.

If Q had teleported the Enterprise into a battle between the 8472 aliens and the Borg and said "You think you're tough? Look at these titans, they are the true kind of power out in space. And they're just 2 species out of thousands at this level", and then have Guinan say "Yes, they're both incredibly powerful. There are many other species like them." then no one would have complained about the existence of the 8472 aliens.

Just repeating what you said isn't going to make it a more true statement, or change facts.

The fact is that that particular DS9 episode always was looked at badly, even by some of the producers. "LIVING WITNESS" has had a huge amount of praise from the audience, and not just the last few years. From at least 1999 onward (this was when I first went onto the internet), I have heard virtually univeral praise for this episode.

I didn't, all I heard was "This might have been a good episode, but that EMH Backup thing ruined it."

Even attempting to put those two episodes in the same paragraph is ludicrous.

That's what Voyager had to put up with during its run and for years after. Utter unfairness and double standards.

Maybe a few people did let it stop them from enjoying the episode, but it definitely was NOT the audience by and large, which you claim. That's like saying 20 people out of 2 million hated TNG and saying 'the audience hated TNG'. Really, dude?

When even "Code of Honor" and "Shades of Grey" get brushed off as "Silly, stupid but enjoyable" but VOY's episodes get panned, you know something is up.

And there is no way 8472 could even have been introduced in season 2 of TNG... that kind of full CGI wasn't really available at that time. Not without it being prohibitively expensive, anyway. ("Q Who?" was already way too expensive, which is part of the reason why season 2 ended with the only clip show in the franchise.)

Let me use another show then. If VOY had found some ancient alien weapon to make Wormholes like Farscape did and used one to destroy a Borg Cube the way Crichton did with the Scarran Dreadnought, no one would've liked that either.

 

[Farscape One]

If Q had teleported the Enterprise into a battle between the 8472 aliens and the Borg and said "You think you're tough? Look at these titans, they are the true kind of power out in space. And they're just 2 species out of thousands at this level", and then have Guinan say "Yes, they're both incredibly powerful. There are many other species like them." then no one would have complained about the existence of the 8472 aliens.



I didn't, all I heard was "This might have been a good episode, but that EMH Backup thing ruined it."



That's what Voyager had to put up with during its run and for years after. Utter unfairness and double standards.



When even "Code of Honor" and "Shades of Grey" get brushed off as "Silly, stupid but enjoyable" but VOY's episodes get panned, you know something is up.



Let me use another show then. If VOY had found some ancient alien weapon to make Wormholes like Farscape did and used one to destroy a Borg Cube the way Crichton did with the Scarran Dreadnought, no one would've liked that either.

The 'what if' argument holds no weight because there is no way to measure it because it didn't happen.

And every show has has their bad episodes... even my personal favorite, DS9, such as "PROFIT AND LACE", "THE EMPEROR'S NEW CLOAK", "LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN...", and "THE RECKONING".

VOYAGER definitely had their share of bad ones... "FAVORITE SON", "SPIRIT FOLK", "FURY", "UNIMATRIX ZERO", and "FALSE PROFITS" for example.

I really liked VOYAGER, but be honest... when it was bad, it was baaaaad.


And you're going to try a comparison between VOYAGER and FARSCAPE? Really? Really?! They are radically different shows, about the only thing they truly have in common is it's a space series set in a region of space that's pretty unknown. FARSCAPE took far, FAR more chances than VOYAGER ever did, and to FARSCAPE's benefit. It's one of the reasons why FARSCAPE is far superior to VOYAGER. (My opinion, of course, but there are a LOT of reasons why I feel this. Not the thread for it, but I can make one if the discussion warrants it.)

I can only go by what I have seen and heard over the years, and what you say about audience views on "LIVING WITNESS" does not match at all with my observations.

VOYAGER gets flak for many things, and some of those things are very rightly deserved.

Every STAR TREK series has flaws... even DS9 had a couple. Some simply have more than others, and VOYAGER, unfortunately, fell in that bracket. (And a number of those flaws I don't even blame the producers... it's the meddling by the suits that hampered many things.)

 

[Anwar]

The 'what if' argument holds no weight because there is no way to measure it because it didn't happen.

But you can't deny that if TNG had done things VOY did, they'd go over better.The audience wasn't as determined to hate everything TNG did like they did with VOY.

If the 8472 aliens appeared in TNG first, there wouldn't be 9/10ths as many complaints.

And every show has has their bad episodes... even my personal favorite, DS9, such as "PROFIT AND LACE", "THE EMPEROR'S NEW CLOAK", "LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN...", and "THE RECKONING".

Yeah, but fans brush those episodes off and don't keep bringing them up over and over and over.

And you're going to try a comparison between VOYAGER and FARSCAPE? Really? Really?! They are radically different shows, about the only thing they truly have in common is it's a space series set in a region of space that's pretty unknown. FARSCAPE took far, FAR more chances than VOYAGER ever did, and to FARSCAPE's benefit.

Farscape used the "Reset Button" too.

They're both "Lost in Space" type shows, except Farscape had cheats in it that VOY didn't. Stuff VOY wouldn't have been able to get away with.

I can only go by what I have seen and heard over the years, and what you say about audience views on "LIVING WITNESS" does not match at all with my observations.

I can only go by what I've seen and heard. And what I've observed is that the show just was singled out for abuse more. Even ENT had an easier time than VOY.

VOYAGER gets flak for many things, and some of those things are very rightly deserved.

Let me give you another example. The audience complained that VOY should've tried harder to form alliances with other aliens to flesh out the area more and try for stuff like a Delta Alliance plotline.

Then when they actually do that plot in things like "The Void", does anyone appreciate this or care? No, they just ignore it at best or complain at worst.

 

[Farscape One]

But you can't deny that if TNG had done things VOY did, they'd go over better.The audience wasn't as determined to hate everything TNG did like they did with VOY.

If the 8472 aliens appeared in TNG first, there wouldn't be 9/10ths as many complaints.



Yeah, but fans brush those episodes off and don't keep bringing them up over and over and over.



Farscape used the "Reset Button" too.

They're both "Lost in Space" type shows, except Farscape had cheats in it that VOY didn't. Stuff VOY wouldn't have been able to get away with.



I can only go by what I've seen and heard. And what I've observed is that the show just was singled out for abuse more. Even ENT had an easier time than VOY.



Let me give you another example. The audience complained that VOY should've tried harder to form alliances with other aliens to flesh out the area more and try for stuff like a Delta Alliance plotline.

Then when they actually do that plot in things like "The Void", does anyone appreciate this or care? No, they just ignore it at best or complain at worst.

Yes, I can deny that because those scenarios never happened. And by the way, TNG did do a few things first that VOYAGER did and it was still not received that well for either show. (Irish episodes and the holodeck becoming an overused plot, for instance.)

And Species 8472 only appeared twice... the "SCORPION" two-parter and "IN THE FLESH". As far as I know, the only real complaint about them was they were underused or not used to potential, which honestly they weren't.

And fans HAVE brought up episodes like "PROFIT AND LACE" and "LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN..." many, many times. Why do you think I used them as my go-to examples?

And FARSCAPE used the reset button pretty sparingly... unlike VOYAGER, who jumped up and down on the button over and over and over and over again. VOYAGER used the reset more times than FARSCAPE had episodes, which was 88.

That's highly debatable that VOYAGER had a harder time than ENTERPRISE in terms of fan abuse. I say no to that for many reasons, not the least of which is this... VOYAGER got 7 years. ENTERPRISE got 4. Clearly, if the fans were not as abusive toward ENTERPRISE, many would have come back or stayed on longer, and it would have had 7 seasons. At the very least, a 5th. So, no, I'm calling bull on your assessment there.


I love "THE VOID"... it's one of the best of season 7. And strictly speaking, VOYAGER did form alliances in the past... remember "YEAR OF HELL, PART II"? Sadly, that didn't matter because of the reset button. (Though the entire premise basically made a reset button a foregone conclusion.) If people did complain about it, it's likely this... it happened too late in the game. Over halfway past the final season, and we never even get more of it anyway? I have never heard the complaint myself, but since you brought it up, yes... I can see why people see that as a missed opportunity.

 

[Anwar]

Yes, I can deny that because those scenarios never happened. And by the way, TNG did do a few things first that VOYAGER did and it was still not received that well for either show. (Irish episodes and the holodeck becoming an overused plot, for instance.)

When TNG did it, those plots were written off as "Harmless Goofiness". Meanwhile VOY gets ripped into for GOOD episodes like "Lifesigns". Tells you something.

And Species 8472 only appeared twice... the "SCORPION" two-parter and "IN THE FLESH". As far as I know, the only real complaint about them was they were underused or not used to potential, which honestly they weren't.

The complaint was that they existed at all. The hope was that they'd do some minor damage to the Borg, the Borg would adapt and wipe them out entirely and that would be that. When it turned out the Borg were truly outclassed, the audience was enraged that they existed because their very existence meant that the Borg weren't invincible anymore.

Their potential couldn't be realized, up against that kind of backlash.

And fans HAVE brought up episodes like "PROFIT AND LACE" and "LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN..." many, many times. Why do you think I used them as my go-to examples?

Nowhere near as often as VOY's episodes do.

And FARSCAPE used the reset button pretty sparingly... unlike VOYAGER, who jumped up and down on the button over and over and over and over again. VOYAGER used the reset more times than FARSCAPE had episodes, which was 88.

Let me give you examples: Duplicate Crichton. We're supposed to believe that Aeryn can't get over the Talyn Crichton dying and she and John won't get back together. Then in S4 they do get back together and Talyn John isn't mentioned ever again in S4 or Peacekeeper Wars.

Same for D'Argo and Chiana, they break up and get back together later.

Scorpius is deposed and killed, then shows back up alive and get his old power back.

That's highly debatable that VOYAGER had a harder time than ENTERPRISE in terms of fan abuse.

Go to YouTube, folks will watch clips from ENT that they used to be nothing but negative comments and now they're all "Wow, I miss real Trek like this", but you won't see that happen to any Voyager Clips. They're as full of spite as ever,

Clearly, if the fans were not as abusive toward ENTERPRISE, many would have come back or stayed on longer, and it would have had 7 seasons. At the very least, a 5th. So, no, I'm calling bull on your assessment there.

That was UPN who pulled the plug, wasn't due to fan reaction. It was internal management restructuring.

I love "THE VOID"... it's one of the best of season 7. And strictly speaking, VOYAGER did form alliances in the past...

Uh huh, and fan response was never more the tepid.

remember "YEAR OF HELL, PART II"?

Yes, the response was "Please, we're expected to believe they got anyone to agree to help them? What garbage"

I have never heard the complaint myself, but since you brought it up, yes... I can see why people see that as a missed opportunity.

The complaint was that VOY succeeded at it at all, even temporarily. Not that we didn't see more of it. Apparently to be "good", Voyager was supposed to attempt at forming Alliances and fail every single time. Because that's "Good writing".

Of course, this is a problem with the core premise of the show because part of that premise was "Voyager will never have support from anyone".

 

[Farscape One]

When TNG did it, those plots were written off as "Harmless Goofiness". Meanwhile VOY gets ripped into for GOOD episodes like "Lifesigns". Tells you something.



The complaint was that they existed at all. The hope was that they'd do some minor damage to the Borg, the Borg would adapt and wipe them out entirely and that would be that. When it turned out the Borg were truly outclassed, the audience was enraged that they existed because their very existence meant that the Borg weren't invincible anymore.

Their potential couldn't be realized, up against that kind of backlash.



Nowhere near as often as VOY's episodes do.



Let me give you examples: Duplicate Crichton. We're supposed to believe that Aeryn can't get over the Talyn Crichton dying and she and John won't get back together. Then in S4 they do get back together and Talyn John isn't mentioned ever again in S4 or Peacekeeper Wars.

Same for D'Argo and Chiana, they break up and get back together later.

Scorpius is deposed and killed, then shows back up alive and get his old power back.



Go to YouTube, folks will watch clips from ENT that they used to be nothing but negative comments and now they're all "Wow, I miss real Trek like this", but you won't see that happen to any Voyager Clips. They're as full of spite as ever,



That was UPN who pulled the plug, wasn't due to fan reaction. It was internal management restructuring.



Uh huh, and fan response was never more the tepid.



Yes, the response was "Please, we're expected to believe they got anyone to agree to help them? What garbage"



The complaint was that VOY succeeded at it at all, even temporarily. Not that we didn't see more of it. Apparently to be "good", Voyager was supposed to attempt at forming Alliances and fail every single time. Because that's "Good writing".

We're going around in circles on the VOYAGER issue, so I'm through with that discussion.

As for FARSCAPE, no... those were not reset buttons.

1. Aeryn was devastated at watching Crichton die on Talyn. And it took time for her to get past it. In universe, there was a gap of several months between "DOG WITH TWO BONES" and "CRICHTON KICKS". She did mention him again, in "PROMISES", when she said there was no longer a distinction in her mind between the two Crichtons. That wasn't a reset... that was growth for her character. Time heals wounds.

2. D'Argo and Chiana... D'Argo was hurt, and he was pretty standoffish with her in season 3. There were a few moments where he went to comfort her because of something extreme, like when they lost Zhaan. But it took all of season 3 and nearly all of season 4 before he let his guard down enough with her and they got back together. Again, time healing the wounds. It was built up again and felt earned, not 1 or 2 episodes and back again. Definitely NOT a reset.

3. Scorpius... he is one of the greatest villains in television. He plans way, WAY ahead. This is how he got his power back. Braca made sure he would survive that planet, and he was Scorpius' spy until he got back to the Peacekeepers. He has the one quality that so few villains have... patience. All the best villains have a great deal of patience, which makes them so dangerous. Scorpius had patience in spades. He played the LOOOOOOOONNNNNG games.

These are NOT reset buttons. Reset buttons would be like these examples from VOYAGER...

"We have a complement of 38 torpedoes." Chakotay
"And no way to replace them when they're gone". Janeway
"THE CLOUD"
(Remind me how many torpedoes were used during the show? I think there's a video out there that counted, and it was about double what they should have had.)

"We have a full complement of shuttles, not to mention the Delta Flyer." Chakotay, the guy who personally got 3 shuttles destroyed by the time of this episode and another in season 7
"ALICE"

The amount of crew on Voyager never matched up. In season 1, there are 152 people. In "DISTANT ORIGIN", there are 148... despite losing Seska, Durst, Kurt Bendera and at least two unnamed ones in "ALLIANCES", Frank Darwin, Michael Jonas, Ensign Bennett, Hogan, crewman in "WARLORD", and Ensign Kaplan. They should have been down to about 140 by the end of season 3, but the number always stayed at about 150. Total reset button.

Voyager takes extreme damage in "DEADLOCK"... looks brand spanking new the very next episode, "INNOCENCE". No mention of any time lapse between the two. (Even the stardates are close together.)

The Malon... encountered at the beginning of season 5. Despite TWO huge jumps in distance in "TIMELESS" and "DARK FRONTIER" (about 35-40,000 light years total), they still encounter the Malon in "JUGGERNAUT".

The 5 survivors of Equinox... never seen or heard again.

"LATENT IMAGE"... takes place sometime before Seven came aboard, yet instead of Kes assisting The Doctor in the flashbacks, it's Tom.

"ASHES TO ASHES"... Kim says he basically got himself assigned quarters near Ballard while at the Academy, and was apparently in love with her. How easily we forget about Libby, huh? Smells like reset.


I can keep going, but I've typed enough for now. And I think I've made my point.

 

[fireproof78]

The Doctor can't be backed up, this is a stupid story".

Because that's what the show told us.

But it's true, if

It's speculation so no it can't be true. Purely a hypothetical.

There is no chance that "LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN..." got better reception than "LIVING WITNESS". You are living in some kind of dream world to think that ever happened.

I clearly can't take you seriously on this matter.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Smart.

 

[Anwar]

We're going around in circles on the VOYAGER issue, so I'm through with that discussion.

As for FARSCAPE, no... those were not reset buttons.

They were, they were just reset buttons with padding between them.

1. Aeryn was devastated at watching Crichton die on Talyn. And it took time for her to get past it. In universe, there was a gap of several months between "DOG WITH TWO BONES" and "CRICHTON KICKS". She did mention him again, in "PROMISES", when she said there was no longer a distinction in her mind between the two Crichtons. That wasn't a reset... that was growth for her character. Time heals wounds.

Something like that should've made it impossible for her to get with the surviving Crichton. But she never experiences difficulties with him. It's a reset button, it had no lasting impact on their relationship. It just took time for the reset button to be pushed.

2. D'Argo and Chiana... D'Argo was hurt, and he was pretty standoffish with her in season 3. There were a few moments where he went to comfort her because of something extreme, like when they lost Zhaan. But it took all of season 3 and nearly all of season 4 before he let his guard down enough with her and they got back together. Again, time healing the wounds. It was built up again and felt earned, not 1 or 2 episodes and back again. Definitely NOT a reset.

Again, it is. It's just a long one that took time to be fully pushed.

3. Scorpius... he is one of the greatest villains in television. He plans way, WAY ahead. This is how he got his power back. Braca made sure he would survive that planet, and he was Scorpius' spy until he got back to the Peacekeepers. He has the one quality that so few villains have... patience. All the best villains have a great deal of patience, which makes them so dangerous. Scorpius had patience in spades. He played the LOOOOOOOONNNNNG games.

Which doesn't change that he always ended up back where he started with his position with the Peacekeepers.

Reset buttons would be like these examples from VOYAGER...

The only difference was that VOY's took less time to be pushed fully.

"We have a complement of 38 torpedoes." Chakotay
"And no way to replace them when they're gone". Janeway

And what's stopping them from reassessing things so that they can make more torpedoes?

"We have a full complement of shuttles, not to mention the Delta Flyer." Chakotay, the guy who personally got 3 shuttles destroyed by the time of this episode and another in season 7

So build more, they have replicators and the power to do so.

The amount of crew on Voyager never matched up. In season 1, there are 152 people. In "DISTANT ORIGIN", there are 148... despite losing Seska, Durst, Kurt Bendera and at least two unnamed ones in "ALLIANCES", Frank Darwin, Michael Jonas, Ensign Bennett, Hogan, crewman in "WARLORD", and Ensign Kaplan. They should have been down to about 140 by the end of season 3, but the number always stayed at about 150. Total reset button.

No, just an inconsistency.

Voyager

takes extreme damage in "DEADLOCK"... looks brand spanking new the very next episode, "INNOCENCE". No mention of any time lapse between the two. (Even the stardates are close together.)

DS9 did the same thing with "To the Death" by having the Station be repaired super fast after the Pylon was blown off.

The Malon... encountered at the beginning of season 5. Despite TWO huge jumps in distance in "TIMELESS" and "DARK FRONTIER" (about 35-40,000 light years total), they still encounter the Malon in "JUGGERNAUT".

They're spread out.

The 5 survivors of Equinox... never seen or heard again.

Not a reset, they never say "We never encountered another Fed ship out here." they just don't want to use those characters.

"LATENT IMAGE"... takes place sometime before Seven came aboard, yet instead of Kes assisting The Doctor in the flashbacks, it's Tom.

If they couldn't get Lien back, then that's the reason

"ASHES TO ASHES"... Kim says he basically got himself assigned quarters near Ballard while at the Academy, and was apparently in love with her. How easily we forget about Libby, huh? Smells like reset.

Young people do stuff like that.

I can keep going, but I've typed enough for now. And I think I've made my point.

So have I. Apparently reset buttons are fine if you put a lot a padding in there too.

Because that's what the show told us

So the audience prefers to let insignificant things ruin good stories for them rather than just appreciate a good story. This proves that Voyager just can't win.

It's speculation so no it can't be true. Purely a hypothetical

A hypothetical with a lot backing its validity.

 

[fireproof78]

So the audience prefers to let insignificant things ruin good stories for them rather than just appreciate a good story.

Star Trek fans are known for their nitpicky nature. This is not news, nor should it come as any surprise. No show is spared this, despite claims to the contrary.

hypothetical with a lot backing its validity.

Hearsay is all.

 

[Anwar]

Star Trek fans are known for their nitpicky nature. This is not news, nor should it come as any surprise. No show is spared this, despite claims to the contrary

NuBSG, Farscape and DS9 say otherwise.

Hell, First Contact did stuff VOY did and got no real complaints about it

Hearsay is all.

If the writers of "Q Who?" had the Borg fighting someone else and had Q and Guinan both repeatedly say "The Borg are strong, but they're just one species and there are many others at least as powerful as them. They're not the single most powerful danger out there" then I doubt anyone would complain when we saw the Borg losing to someone else.