I think suddenly bringing Saavik back after her missing most of The Voyage Home and all of The Final Frontier would have made it seem pretty clear that her sudden return coincided with a mystery traitor on board. The Wrath of Khan didn't Kim Cattrall doing naked photoshoots on the Enterprise bridge... spoiler: Neither did The Undiscovered Country. Also read the character of Saavik was dropped from the script when Kirstie Alley wouldn't reprise the role - bit harsh on Robin Curtis.
The Wrath of Khan vs The Undiscovered Country
- Thread starter Khan 2.0
- Start date
Good point about Saavik being too obvious. But, I still think it would have been more impactful for Saavik to be the sabatour, because her motivations would have had more weight with the audience. (Having seen her friend and possible love-interest David killed by Klingons in a previous movie.) It would have added something to see Kirk and his son's friend reacting so differently to his son's murder.
Actually that's a great point.
I do think WoK looks more impressive than TUC though even though it's almost a decade older, the sets feel almost cheap looking in the 91 movie.
I guess both movies were coming off the back of previous instalments that didn't meet expectations and had their wings clipped as a result though.
I guess both movies were coming off the back of previous instalments that didn't meet expectations and had their wings clipped as a result though.
Yeeeah, seeing the unredressed TNG sets didn’t help TUC…
I think TUC in particular looked and felt massively rushed. The sets look cheap and the story has really big contrivances and holes that are hard to ignore. The script needed a few more re-writes to get the whole whodunit and political machination plots tighter. The visual effects look great, and the cinematography is gorgeous...but the rest of it feels hacked together unfortunately. Even the editing is choppy and rushed (the dinner scene in particular flows horribly).
The novelization and even the comic adaptation flow much better. Kirk's speech at the end to Azetbur was also much longer and was, actually, really well written. As it is, it goes from Shatner ramping up to making this massive address and cutting to him facing Gorkon's daughter with a completely different facial expression, skipping right to the last line of his speech. Superman IV was edited just about as smoothly. If they were pressed for running time, I could suggest a half dozen pointless gag scenes that should have been cut instead.
I never noticed that...I'll have to take a look. I always get irritated with McCoy saying "He's definitely on about something Jim" and his mouth doesn't move.
Again, it's a pretty sloppy movie all things considered.
I rewatched the 4K... amazing how seeing it in theater three times when it came out didn't have so many issues popping out, save for "Oh look, there's a TNG set! And another! And another one! And another one! Surely they didn't rebuild the Engineering room from scratch!" (Sheesh, ST5 had more of an Engineering set, showing almost everything - except a warp code. Bits of the original prop was reused for Voyager, so why not reuse STV's + TMP's?
Heck, even STV uses the same alarm klaxon as TMP had, in a long overdue and much appreciated moment of continuity as TMP in 1979 got the new red alert noise down perfectly. (then came the director's cut which wimpies it up...)
The Whodunnit is still great and Gorkon, Azetbur, and Chang still steal the show.
Chang himself is the last formidable opponent we'd see for a very long time, if not the last.
Some lines definitely did not need to be in the film as they don't fit up with Starfleet at all. What some of the lower deck peons say is completely out of place and it'd make more sense to show how Starfleet ISN'T the propaganda the Klingons know about (see "Day of the Dove" for more.) Especially when TOS and the movies up to that point had plenty of non-humans, so it's completely unexpected, unwarranted, and, yeah, apocryphal. Arguably more so than STV. Especially as Saavi-- oops, Valaris is right there gawking as they spout their garbage and she doesn't use it to bolster the conflict. Are these two part of the treason? Couldn't she even dial up 1--9-7-6--C-h-a-n-g and let him know that things are even better as expected thanks to this moment she observes?! So, yeah, @Vger23 is more than spot on regarding the rough draft nature of the story's narrative, which is big - and big enough to survive a lot of clunky moments - but still feels off-kilter.
Never mind the setup at the start with "50 earth years, depletion of ozone, blah blah blah".
Making Uhura the butt of a joke with "Duurrh, I'm the communications officer but can't read a book" is worse than 90% of STV's (unintentional character-assassination) jokes and on par with the others.
Great point on friend and possible love interest.
I can imagine a possible scene where Saavik reminds Kirk of this, to help strengthen a hateful mindset - or what happened between V and VI to more conclusively have Kirk spit out "Let them die!!"? The movie definitely rushes things a tad much... it manages to pull it off, but it could/should have been a lot smoother.
Heck, even STV uses the same alarm klaxon as TMP had, in a long overdue and much appreciated moment of continuity as TMP in 1979 got the new red alert noise down perfectly. (then came the director's cut which wimpies it up...)
The Whodunnit is still great and Gorkon, Azetbur, and Chang still steal the show.
Chang himself is the last formidable opponent we'd see for a very long time, if not the last.
Some lines definitely did not need to be in the film as they don't fit up with Starfleet at all. What some of the lower deck peons say is completely out of place and it'd make more sense to show how Starfleet ISN'T the propaganda the Klingons know about (see "Day of the Dove" for more.) Especially when TOS and the movies up to that point had plenty of non-humans, so it's completely unexpected, unwarranted, and, yeah, apocryphal. Arguably more so than STV. Especially as Saavi-- oops, Valaris is right there gawking as they spout their garbage and she doesn't use it to bolster the conflict. Are these two part of the treason? Couldn't she even dial up 1--9-7-6--C-h-a-n-g and let him know that things are even better as expected thanks to this moment she observes?! So, yeah, @Vger23 is more than spot on regarding the rough draft nature of the story's narrative, which is big - and big enough to survive a lot of clunky moments - but still feels off-kilter.
Never mind the setup at the start with "50 earth years, depletion of ozone, blah blah blah".
Making Uhura the butt of a joke with "Duurrh, I'm the communications officer but can't read a book" is worse than 90% of STV's (unintentional character-assassination) jokes and on par with the others.
Great point on friend and possible love interest.
I can imagine a possible scene where Saavik reminds Kirk of this, to help strengthen a hateful mindset - or what happened between V and VI to more conclusively have Kirk spit out "Let them die!!"? The movie definitely rushes things a tad much... it manages to pull it off, but it could/should have been a lot smoother.
STV had really no engineering set. All you saw was this tiny little area that looked like a redress of the corridor set, with some flashing lights. No scenes after Scotty's "get out and push" bit took place in Engineering.
I think TWOK is the best it has a good plot that comes full circle to a line spock had in Space seed about returning to ceti alpha in 15 years and seeing what comes from the seed they just planted. Also the feel of we need to stop kahn at the risk of oir own lives was a really good point. TUC was good but all the crew were off. 1 thing their biggatry was a big mistake, 2 it seems they where all lost and it took a vulcan who was not beeing a vulcan to tell chekov and uhura about how to respond to starfleet. This is not like them to not know what to do. The best part of the movie was the battle between the enterprise, excelsior, and the bop. Also thinking a admrial like cartright would work with the same race he claims to hate dosent make sense as well as valeris kept using the how trust worthy can klingons be for her defence of why she was not trust worthy is not truly vulcan ideals.
TWOK had Kirstie Alley. Better of the 2. Not even arguable. 
It was one of the big disappointments from the special edition cut from the DVDs, I was hoping there were additional footage where some scenes were cut for time, ala ALIENS Special Edition, and would be re-integrated to fully immerse myself in what could've been? All I got were Scooby Doo revelations and a complete insult of my intelligence during the facial visions from Spock's mindmeld on Valeris.
TUC was really good but The Wrath of Khan was another level of greatness.
Loved Saavik in TWoK but her portrayal already having had a sudden massive shift in TSfS, I think it was just a better idea to just have a new Vulcan protege character rather than have Curtis now act like Alley or a third actress act pretty much like the first version.
Loved Saavik in TWoK but her portrayal already having had a sudden massive shift in TSfS, I think it was just a better idea to just have a new Vulcan protege character rather than have Curtis now act like Alley or a third actress act pretty much like the first version.
I could never understand why the President of the UFoP allowed the Romulan ambassador into their high military meetings? Since when did the Romulans become the friends to the Federation and even if they did why allow him into their conference? 
I still prefer TUC to WOK to be honest as UC was more of a continuation of the original tv show and Khan was a sequel to TMP rather than Space Seed and in reality it followed neither!
How did Khan know of the Klingons? Did he pick up their transmissions or if they came to Ceti Alpha V then why didn't they rescue him from his rule in Hell?
JB
I still prefer TUC to WOK to be honest as UC was more of a continuation of the original tv show and Khan was a sequel to TMP rather than Space Seed and in reality it followed neither!
How did Khan know of the Klingons? Did he pick up their transmissions or if they came to Ceti Alpha V then why didn't they rescue him from his rule in Hell?
JB
IIRC, there's about six years that happen between TFF and TUC. Plenty of time for the UFP's relationship with the Romulans to become more friendly.I could never understand why the President of the UFoP allowed the Romulan ambassador into their high military meetings? Since when did the Romulans become the friends to the Federation and even if they did why allow him into their conference?
He could very plausibly come across mention of them while studying the Enterprise's technical manuals in "Space Seed." And Marla McGivers had plenty of time to tell Khan about them while they were stranded on Ceti Alpha V. He had a lot of books with him on the planet, too. There could've easily been a collection of Klingon proverbs in there, or a biography of Kahless or something.How did Khan know of the Klingons? Did he pick up their transmissions or if they came to Ceti Alpha V then why didn't they rescue him from his rule in Hell?
Nothing. Fighting the Klingons for 30-40 years and them killing his son covers it pretty well, IMO.
The Klingon answer is good but the Romulan ambassador is a no way! Even if relations had softened between the two powers I doubt that the Federation would ever trust the Romulans in that capacity!
JB
JB
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