Superman

[CorporalCaptain]

I used to think this myself--for many years. Then somebody on this board, probably when we were having this very same conversation 15 years ago--referred me to the screenplay of the movie. In the screenplay it states that Superman throws Zod to his death.

Yeah.

There isn't any other reason to shroud what happens to the three Kryptonian criminals in mist or for us to hear their fading scream as if they're falling to their dooms, without any further comment from the film, than that they're killed. This is after Superman crushes every bone in Zod's hand, and before he goes to beat the shit out of the trucker bully at the diner.

In films and television shows of this period, the audience is assumed to be supportive of the idea of villains getting their comeuppance and to be shedding no tears, if not laughing about it, if they're planted.

If the scene of the three being taken into custody, or some other similar scene, had made the final cut, then that would change things. But it was, in fact, not in the final film, nor was the matter followed up on in any sequel. So, the cues suggesting their deaths are all that remains.

 

[The Realist]

I used to think this myself--for many years. Then somebody on this board, probably when we were having this very same conversation 15 years ago--referred me to the screenplay of the movie. In the screenplay it states that Superman throws Zod to his death.

If true, that's better evidence than any other I've encountered for the "death" argument.

I've not read the script, but I do vaguely recall someone quoting that section at some point. What I remember is that it was clearly an earlier version of the screenplay, or that it was modified on set, because there were a number of elements that didn't line up with what's on screen.

And wouldn't the script (or a version of it) have also included the deleted scene of the Arctic Police hauling Zod and company away? So obviously there were different drafts of the screenplay, in at least one of which they explicitly survived. So the script as "proof" cuts both ways.

In any event, I would contend that the script is not the film, and like Supervisor 194 and others, I feel that nothing about the scene as presented in the final film supports the idea that Superman killed Zod. That idea is completely at odds with the light, almost slapstick tone of the scene.

Yeah.

There isn't any other reason to shroud what happens to the three Kryptonian criminals in mist or for us to hear their fading scream as if they're falling to their dooms, without any further comment from the film, than that they're killed. This is after Superman crushes every bone in Zod's hand, and before he goes to beat the shit out of the trucker bully at the diner.

In films and television shows of this period, the audience is assumed to be supportive of the idea of villains getting their comeuppance and to be shedding no tears, if not laughing about it, if they're planted.

If the scene of the three being taken into custody, or some other similar scene, had made the final cut, then that would change things. But it was, in fact, not in the final film, nor was the matter followed up on in any sequel. So, the cues suggesting their deaths are all that remains.

This is well-argued, without the "Ha ha! Superman KILLS! Take that, wimps!" belligerent glee with which the subject is often discussed by the "Zod dies" advocates.

I will note, however, that I was part of the "audience of the period," having seen the film in the theater upon its original release, and it never even occurred to me to assume Zod and company had died. And to add to Supervisor 194's anecdotal evidence, when I presented the question to my brother (also part of the "audience of the period"), his immediate response was, "What? Of course not! That's crazy!"

Obviously, this is one of those arguments that's never going to be resolved, though it will be revived and debated ad nauseam. Hey, at least Snyder didn't leave any ambiguity about it in Man of Steel, eh?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If true, that's better evidence than any other I've encountered for the "death" argument.

I've not read the script, but I do vaguely recall someone quoting that section at some point. What I remember is that it was clearly an earlier version of the screenplay, or that it was modified on set, because there were a number of elements that didn't line up with what's on screen.

And wouldn't the script (or a version of it) have also included the deleted scene of the Arctic Police hauling Zod and company away? So obviously there were different drafts of the screenplay, in at least one of which they explicitly survived. So the script as "proof" cuts both ways.

In any event, I would contend that the script is not the film, and like Supervisor 194 and others, I feel that nothing about the scene as presented in the final film supports the idea that Superman killed Zod. That idea is completely at odds with the light, almost slapstick tone of the scene.

This is well-argued, without the "Ha ha! Superman KILLS! Take that, wimps!" belligerent glee with which the subject is often discussed by the "Zod dies" advocates.

I will note, however, that I was part of the "audience of the period," having seen the film in the theater upon its original release, and it never even occurred to me to assume Zod and company had died. And to add to Supervisor 194's anecdotal evidence, when I presented the question to my brother (also part of the "audience of the period"), his immediate response was, "What? Of course not! That's crazy!"

Obviously, this is one of those arguments that's never going to be resolved, though it will be revived and debated ad nauseam. Hey, at least Snyder didn't leave any ambiguity about it in Man of Steel, eh?

I see it as one of those "take 'em out back" moments. It's not explicit, so that aspect remains suitable for general audiences.

Also, the whole film is rather comical in its tone, so it's like Wile E. Coyote falling off a cliff.

 

[The Realist]

Also, the whole film is rather comical in its tone, so it's like Wile E. Coyote falling off a cliff.

Agreed 100 percent. The scene is exactly like that -- total slapstick comedy, a live-action cartoon. What I don't get is how you see that as evidence FOR Zod's death, when to my mind it's the exact opposite.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah.

There isn't any other reason to shroud what happens to the three Kryptonian criminals in mist or for us to hear their fading scream as if they're falling to their dooms, without any further comment from the film, than that they're killed. This is after Superman crushes every bone in Zod's hand, and before he goes to beat the shit out of the trucker bully at the diner.

In films and television shows of this period, the audience is assumed to be supportive of the idea of villains getting their comeuppance and to be shedding no tears, if not laughing about it, if they're planted.

If the scene of the three being taken into custody, or some other similar scene, had made the final cut, then that would change things. But it was, in fact, not in the final film, nor was the matter followed up on in any sequel. So, the cues suggesting their deaths are all that remains.

Just watching the scene, having not seen the film, death feels very implied.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

In the end does it really matter if he he killed Zod and his cohorts? It's implied that's what happens, and it is on screen for all to see what else is there?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Agreed 100 percent. The scene is exactly like that -- total slapstick comedy, a live-action cartoon. What I don't get is how you see that as evidence FOR Zod's death, when to my mind it's the exact opposite.

Cartoon characters are indestructible. In What's Opera, Doc? Elmer kills Bugs, and as he's carrying him away, Bugs lifts his head up, and asks us what we expected, a happy ending? That's a very sophisticated, metatextual moment. They're letting us in on the gag: every time Yosemite Sam gets a pointblank powder keg blast, he's dead, but because it's as if they're just playacting to us for entertainment, in the very next scene he and Bugs are at it again as if nothing has happened. It's like we're watching them performing a play for us, as when they have the man getting up to go to the bathroom and moving across bottom of the screen, and Elmer Fudd points his gun at him and makes him go back to his seat.

In Superman II, almost all of these metatextual cues are absent. We do have the plot armor around Superman and Lois. If a scene of the three villains being taken into custody had made it into the film, then the plot armor would have extended to cover them as well, and that would have been analogous to Yosemite Sam being alright after a pointblank powder keg blast. But for whatever reason, they decided not to play it that way. That makes it play differently.

 

[The Realist]

That makes it play differently.

To you; obviously not to me and others.

Still, fairly and intelligently argued once again. I appreciate the tone, since this particular debate usually takes the form of a mean-spirited round of baiting and attempted one-upmanship. The opportunity to discuss it with someone who is arguing in good faith and not behaving like an asshole is what drew me to enter the fray once again, when I had sworn I was done with this subject. So kudos for that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I imagine the Fortress is climate controlled and it's warm within the walls much like an igloo is a lot warmer on the inside. With the Kryptonian technology that could build an entire compound out of growing crystals and also equip that compound with holographic projectors and crystal data readers I have little doubt the inside was nice and toasty.

I never thought they died until I met you sickos.

They slid down a slide into a cushion of snow.

That's plausible.

However...

If they'd slipped down a harrowing razor sharp declination of jutting craggy ice at terminal velocity into a hard solid stop.

The bones exposed by their grazed off faces would have been pulverized.

Or they die of Starvation over the course of months tobogganing to the centre of the earth.

Of course if they were heading down that far, then the pressure would have caved in their sculls at 800 feet.

Of course why I quoted you is maybe those slidey apertures were the casual end of volcanic vents. So the fortress was powered by and heated by a geothermal (which geographically sounds unlikely.) event, which means that Zod slid down that hole into a wall of super heated steam, and then a very deep pool of boiling water.

Broiled Kryptonian.

All that meat going to waste.

Maybe if Krypto had been a very good dog?

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I honestly have no idea where the bruised feeling regarding Superman killing Zod comes from. Zod is a Hitler stand-in. Just like Red Skull, Thanos, Kang The Conqueror and Darkseid. The alien Ubermensch. Bent on world domination, conquest and genocide.

While Superman (1938) and Captain America (1941) are satires of the Nazi ideal. Double backhand, as both Supes and Cap fight for America and both were created by Jewish writers and artists( Jerry Siegel & Joey Shuster/ Joe Simon and Jack Kirby). Zod is irredeemably evil in all his encounters and the writers make their feelings about him plain as day.


Superman II (1980) - Zod is depowered, thrown into a wall and down a bottomless cavern.

Superman vol 2 #22 (1988) - Pre-Crisis Zod is executed by Superman using Green Kryptonite. This after Zod killed the entire populace of a parallel Earth and boasted about doing it again.

Action Comics #776 (2001) - A Zod from Krypton's past (before it blows up) is killed by Jor-El, when he sticks a trident into Zod's power armor. Before Zod can deliver the killing blow to Superman.

Action Comics #805 (2003) - The Zod from 1988 possess a Russian soldier and gains power to take revenge on Superman for killing him. He dies flying into Superman at full speed. Right as his own psuedo Kryptonian powers are neutralized.

Superman vol 2 #215 (2005) - This General Zod of undefined origins; abducts 1 million Metropolis citizens and transports them into the Phantom Zone. In an attempt to lure Superman there. He dies by allowing himself to be sucked into a Phantom Zone singularity as the region of the zone he and Superman were in collapsed.

Action Comics #845 (2007) - Geoff Johns introduces the "real" General Zod of the post-Crisis on Infinite Earth's (1985) continuity. Ignoring all the ones before. This one is highly based on the Zod who appears in Superman II. As the story "Last Son" featured Richard Donner as a co-writer for the title. This Zod escaped the Zone 3 times, was imprisoned in the Zone 3 times, before Barry Flashpointed the universe in 2011.

Man of Steel (2013) - DCEU Zod was killed after his destroy all life on Earth plot.

New 52 Zod (2013) - Visually taking cues from MOS. This Zod would escape the Phantom Zone and basically menace the world. The writers don't seem to know what to do with him, except not put him back in the Phantom Zone. This Zod has fought Superman, Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, and the Suicide Squad. He would later become a member of the Suicide Squad. Taking orders from Waller. How embarassing.

Superman Earth One Vol 3 (2015) - Zod is killed by Alexa Luthor. Wife of Alexander Luthor. After he kills Lex and is about to kill Superman. He is depowered with a red sun gun by Lex and shot 4 times in the chest by Alexa with a revolver. Will the humiliation end?

Supergirl CW (2018) - Season 3 episode 12 "For the Good". Superman is stated to have killed his Zod in a past adventure.

Superman and Lois (2021) Season 1 episode 12 "Through The Valley of Death". The deceased Zod's consciousness possess Superman and is later destroyed by Superman. With John Henry's help.


If the letter V is for Vendetta. Then E should be "Expendable". Because that's what Zod is. The writers have no problem introducing Zod and then killing him off at the end of their story. Of the list above, 5 existed in the same continuity. Being an evil Superman isn't new. The Powers That Be have access to Ultraman (the Crime Syndicate), Bizarro, Cyborg Superman, Darkseid and evil versions of Clark to play with. With the exception of Bizarro (who dies frequently due to improper cloning techniques or cellular degradation), no other evil Superman character is treated as expendable as Zod is.

Most writers understand, you can only do one impactful story with the dark mirror Superman. After which he has to be taken off the board at the end of the story. Lest he return and do worse than he did the last time.

 

[theenglish]

After finding a site about what happens to Zod--I remember the issue was muddied due to the differences between the final version that made it to screen and the originally planned Donner version. This is not what I vaguely remember seeing a long time ago, but its the internet.

The script says that Zod is flung the length of the fortress into a wall and drops to the floor; and Non is tossed into a wall and falls into a heap like a rag doll.

https://www.thegeektwins.com/2022/06/did-superman-kill-general-zod-in.html

This is from the site, which gives a pretty solid argument for the intention vs. what we saw--although I disagree with the conclusion.

Did General Zod Die in the Original Ending for Superman II?
Now, what was Donner's original plan for Superman to deal with the villains? Years later he got the chance to show us in the "Richard Donner Cut". Like in the theatrical version the re-edited movie ends with the three being defeated. Also, Superman uses his heat vision to destroy the Fortress of Solitude. Does that kill them? We don't know. The three are powerless.

Meanwhile, Superman can't reconcile the death and destruction caused by the three villains. So he flies around the world and reverses time. That means the three are never released from the Phantom Zone and Earth is spared. His time with Lois is lost. But the Kryptonian villains are never killed.

The point is no matter which version you look at Superman didn't kill Zod. In the theatrical version, there was a scene showing them being arrested. In the original script, Superman was supposed to turn back time and they were never killed.

So, while it's possible to watch the movie any way you like, the reality is that Superman didn't kill Zod in Superman II. I hope that ends that debate.

 

[Skipper]

Someone here said that Zod can't be dead because the whole scene looks like it was shot like a cartoon. However, I remember you that in practically all Disney cartoons this was how the villains died, plunging into an endless abyss. And I don't think anyone has ever seriously claimed that Snow White's Wicked Witch or Gaston were actually still alive at the end of their respective films.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You can always choose to believe Jack O'Halloran's assertion that the scene where Zod, Ursa and Non are carried off to prison was indeed shot. Makes things easier that way.

 

[fireproof78]

Someone here said that Zod can't be dead because the whole scene looks like it was shot like a cartoon. However, I remember you that in practically all Disney cartoons this was how the villains died, plunging into an endless abyss. And I don't think anyone has ever seriously claimed that Snow White's Wicked Witch or Gaston were actually still alive at the end of their respective films.

Disney films have some of the worst death scenes. I love how being a cartoon somehow means "Don't worry, no one died."

Ursula being impaled, Mother Gottel aging rapidly and falling out a tower, Clayton hanging himself, or, all the way back to the first full length animated motion picture, the Wicked Queen falling and being crushed by her own boulder of doom.

You know, for kids!

 

[Guy Gardener]

What is a General on Krypton?

No enemies and ultimate technology.

Defense satellites and drones?

Meanwhile his new army is a pedophile and a idiot.

If his soldiers are from the loony bin, then he's probably from the loony bin, was he a real general who snapped from the pressure, or is h e a crazy person who thinks he is a general.

In Superman II his entire crime spree amounted to lite vandalism, so they shot him into space as a problem too obscene to deal with planet side.

Why would he still be on Krypton if he had previously really almost over thrown the Science Council?

 

[The Lensman]

Someone here said that Zod can't be dead because the whole scene looks like it was shot like a cartoon. However, I remember you that in practically all Disney cartoons this was how the villains died, plunging into an endless abyss. And I don't think anyone has ever seriously claimed that Snow White's Wicked Witch or Gaston were actually still alive at the end of their respective films.

Exactly. Bad guys falling to their deaths was a blood free, graphic violence free way to depict death even kids stuff back in the day. I saw Superman 2 in theaters and it never occurred to me then that the baddies were anything other than dead. Because when kid level stuff wanted to kill someone, having them fall off a cliff was the way to go.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Oh hell even in Doctor Who people get shot and die but zero blood, but then it's a kids show

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

"Fixation" is an odd way to put it. I would say it comes down to interpretation of the events and something largely went unchallenged until encountering other points of view. Humans are not great at challenging assumptions.

Moreover, some created their own idea that Superman does not kill, which is a revisionist notion, and unsupported by the original interpretation of the character, or in versions past the terrible Weisinger-controlled era of the comics.

Yeah.

There isn't any other reason to shroud what happens to the three Kryptonian criminals in mist or for us to hear their fading scream as if they're falling to their dooms, without any further comment from the film, than that they're killed. This is after Superman crushes every bone in Zod's hand, and before he goes to beat the shit out of the trucker bully at the diner.

It is all quite clear, and notice how Clark using his otherworldy powers against the bully is glossed over by the "Superman is so virtuous" advocates.

In films and television shows of this period, the audience is assumed to be supportive of the idea of villains getting their comeuppance and to be shedding no tears, if not laughing about it, if they're planted.

If the scene of the three being taken into custody, or some other similar scene, had made the final cut, then that would change things. But it was, in fact, not in the final film, nor was the matter followed up on in any sequel.So, the cues suggesting their deaths are all that remains.

..and all that matters. At no point in the theatrical release, or in the numerous interviews conducted at the time did anyone from the production claim Zod and his sidekicks were not killed. Superman II was a superhero/action film that required acceptable payoffs for the type of antagonist featured in the film, which could not be achieved with Superman picking Zod up by the collar and dropping him off in THE STATE PRISON like Mighty Mouse would with Oil Can Harry.

I honestly have no idea where the bruised feeling regarding Superman killing Zod comes from. Zod is a Hitler stand-in. Just like Red Skull, Thanos, Kang The Conqueror and Darkseid. The alien Ubermensch. Bent on world domination, conquest and genocide.

The bruised feelings stem from those who make the Herculean effort to completely alter what the filmmakers intended, which in turn, supports their Superman-as-Santa idea. That ignores the origins and early interpretation of the character, and the social environment his creators lived in while creating him--all predating the silly Weisinger control of Superman titles, which introduced the Superman-as-Santa idea.

While Superman (1938) and Captain America (1941) are satires of the Nazi ideal. Double backhand, as both Supes and Cap fight for America and both were created by Jewish writers and artists( Jerry Siegel & Joey Shuster/Stan Lee and Jack Kirby). Zod is irredeemably evil in all his encounters and the writers make their feelings about him plain as day.


Superman II (1980) - Zod is depowered, thrown into a wall and down a bottomless cavern.

Superman vol 2 #22 (1988) - Pre-Crisis Zod is executed by Superman using Green Kryptonite. This after Zod killed the entire populace of a parallel Earth and boasted about doing it again.

Action Comics #776 (2001) - A Zod from Krypton's past (before it blows up) is killed by Jor-El, when he sticks a trident into Zod's power armor. Before Zod can deliver the killing blow to Superman.

Action Comics #805 (2003) - The Zod from 1988 possess a Russian soldier and gains power to take revenge on Superman for killing him. He dies flying into Superman at full speed. Right as his own psuedo Kryptonian powers are neutralized.

Superman vol 2 #215 (2005) - This General Zod of undefined origins; abducts 1 million Metropolis citizens and transports them into the Phantom Zone. In an attempt to lure Superman there. He dies by allowing himself to be sucked into a Phantom Zone singularity as the region of the zone he and Superman were in collapsed.

Action Comics #845 (2007) - Geoff Johns introduces the "real" General Zod of the post-Crisis on Infinite Earth's (1985) continuity. Ignoring all the ones before. This one is highly based on the Zod who appears in Superman II. As the story "Last Son" featured Richard Donner as a co-writer for the title. This Zod escaped the Zone 3 times, was imprisoned in the Zone 3 times, before Barry Flashpointed the universe in 2011.

Man of Steel (2013) - DCEU Zod was killed after his destroy all life on Earth plot.

New 52 Zod (2013) - Visually taking cues from MOS. This Zod would escape the Phantom Zone and basically menace the world. The writers don't seem to know what to do with him, except not put him back in the Phantom Zone. This Zod has fought Superman, Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, and the Suicide Squad. He would later become a member of the Suicide Squad. Taking orders from Waller. How embarassing.

Superman Earth One Vol 3 (2015) - Zod is killed by Alexa Luthor. Wife of Alexander Luthor. After he kills Lex and is about to kill Superman. He is depowered with a red sun gun by Lex and shot 4 times in the chest by Alexa with a revolver. Will the humiliation end?

Supergirl CW (2018) - Season 3 episode 12 "For the Good". Superman is stated to have killed his Zod in a past adventure.

Superman and Lois (2021) Season 1 episode 12 "Through The Valley of Death". The deceased Zod's consciousness possess Superman and is later destroyed by Superman. With John Henry's help.

Yes, in several of your examples, Zod's death its a recurring plot point--the Zod situation presenting a fascinating moment of self-reflection of Superman, and what he's willing to do (must do) against that--which by nature--rejects peace and/or reason, seeks no redemption from anyone, and has no compunction about slaughtering the innocent to get whatever he desires.

 

[The Knappos]

Double backhand, as both Supes and Cap fight for America and both were created by Jewish writers and artists( Jerry Siegel & Joey Shuster/Stan Lee and Jack Kirby).

You, of course, mean Joe Simon and Jack Kirby there.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

You, of course, mean Joe Simon and Jack Kirby there.

You are correct. I mixed up Stan Lee’s work on Silver Age Cap and being the one who decided to kill Bucky off (because he didn’t like Robin-eske sidekicks). With the Golden Age Captain America.

I’ll make the edits now. Thank you.