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Superman

Whether or not Superman killed Zod in the final confrontation he was justified as an act of both self-defense and to protect wider humanity. Zod is still a cunning military mastermind from a culture thousands of years ahead of Earth technologically. Even if he can't fly or fire heat beams from his eyes he's still a potential danger to humans and global peace.
 
Supervisor 194 said:
It always amazes me to see the view that Superman killed Zod in cold blood at the end of Superman II.

I know this is just anecdotal, but none of my friend group who saw the movie when it opened came away with the idea that Superman had killed him or let any of the other Phantom Zoners die. There is nothing that establishes the Fortress of Solitude is built over a bottomless pit, or any other kind of chasm. All we see on screen is that a) Superman arrived at the Fortress before the villains and set up a trap for them and b) when the trap is sprung they vanish in a mist. That's it.

The idea that Superman killed them goes against the very tone of the movie itself, especially in its depiction of Superman, and is speculation that is not supported by the movie itself.
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Would that I had a thousand "Likes" to give.
 
The Superman movies are not known for their physics: by that logic, Superman killed Lois by catching her when she fell in the first movie, as well as the guy in the helicopter. And killed her again in the second movie, when he stopped the runaway elevator at the Eiffel Tower. These movies played fast and loose with physics in service of story and tone.

So no, Superman did not kill or cripple Zod by throwing him against the wall.
 
Skipper said:
I'm sorry, do you have panel where, I don't know, he spanked Perry White? Or where he mindwiped Jimmy Olsen?
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I'm sure that, no matter what I found, you'd move the goal posts again. We went from debating the secret identity concept to you trying to make it about spanking and lord knows what next.
 
Skipper said:
I don't want to do the math, by I'm quite sure that just the tossing against the wall would suffice to break Zod's back.

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You've spent hours explaining to people that coyotes can't really operate Acme Rocket Skates and/or survive falls from 100 foot high cliffs, haven't you?
 
Skipper said:
I don't want to do the math, by I'm quite sure that just the tossing against the wall would suffice to break Zod's back.

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He did not need to break Zod's back for the outcome to be the same. Others can try and try again in the attempt to make Superman appear to be a nice guy, but the theatrical version of Superman II is unambiguous--he consciously tossed a powerless Zod (who exhibited no fighting skill at all after losing his power) down into a foggy abyss, which was the villain's death scene. That was the intended payoff of the conflict.
 
I know this discussion won't change any minds, but all we see is Zod vanish into mist, in Superman's alien fortress which he prepared for them in advance. Anything else is based on what you read into it.

Frankly, it's bizarre to me this fixation that some fans have about seeing Superman kill someone. Whatever floats your boat I guess.
 
"Fixation" is an odd way to put it. I would say it comes down to interpretation of the events and something largely went unchallenged until encountering other points of view. Humans are not great at challenging assumptions.
 
By fixation, I am referring to the subset of fans who have advocated the position that seeing Superman kill someone is an important part of his character development going back to John Byrne's depiction of such in his reboot version of Superman, and seen in this very thread.
 
Supervisor 194 said:
By fixation, I am referring to the subset of fans who have advocated the position that seeing Superman kill someone is an important part of his character, going back to John Byrne's depiction of such in his reboot version of Superman, and seen in this very thread.
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Equally interesting is the opposite reaction and the push back of what Superman must be. There's a variety of interpretations out there. More curious to me is the need to argue for one or the other.
 
I'm not surprised at the need to argue either position, be it Superman or Star Trek, or whatever. These things are modern myth and have great meaning to people.

For me, Superman has been a touchstone in my life for many years. I was adopted as an infant and my mother used the story of Superman to explain the concept of adoption to me. I was awkward, wore glasses as a teenager and lived in a small town, so the character of Clark Kent resonated with me in many ways. I was 7 years old when the first Christopher Reeve movie was released and that early movie experience was to me what the first Star Wars was to many of my generation and captured my imagination in ways that continue to this day. I'm protective of that particular image of Superman and what it means to me.
 
Supervisor 194 said:
I'm not surprised at the need to argue either position, be it Superman or Star Trek, or whatever. These things are modern myth and have great meaning to people.
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This is fair, if mostly something I don't quite resonate with. Enjoyment is one thing, but meaning in media is lacking for me. I should say I'm willing to argue things, but the emotional attachment is somewhat nebulous thing nowadays. When I was younger it probably meant more. Now, well, I like the things I like and usually they are things others do not like. To quite the famous philosophers "I am a rock; I am an island." Maybe that's not quite right...
Supervisor 194 said:
For me, Superman has been a touchstone in my life for many years. I was adopted as an infant and my mother used the story of Superman to explain the concept of adoption to me. I was awkward, wore glasses as a teenager and lived in a small town, so the character of Clark Kent resonated with me in many ways. I was 7 years old when the first Christopher Reeve movie was released and that early movie experience was to me what the first Star Wars was to many of my generation and captured my imagination in ways that continue to this day. I'm protective of that particular image of Superman and what it means to me.
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I thank you for the description. As I age I am less protective of what things mean to me, at least in terms of media. I am more curious as to what things mean to others because I see these big upswings of emotion and it takes me a minute to really remember those big defensive reactions about media, like Star Wars or Star Trek.
 
Skipper said:
I don't want to do the math, by I'm quite sure that just the tossing against the wall would suffice to break Zod's back.

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I love how Lois is not shivering her guts off in the cold... And why nuke the fortress where's Supes going to live now?
 
I imagine the Fortress is climate controlled and it's warm within the walls much like an igloo is a lot warmer on the inside. With the Kryptonian technology that could build an entire compound out of growing crystals and also equip that compound with holographic projectors and crystal data readers I have little doubt the inside was nice and toasty.
 
Supervisor 194 said:
It always amazes me to see the view that Superman killed Zod in cold blood at the end of Superman II.

...

The idea that Superman killed them goes against the very tone of the movie itself, especially in its depiction of Superman, and is speculation that is not supported by the movie itself.
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I used to think this myself--for many years. Then somebody on this board, probably when we were having this very same conversation 15 years ago--referred me to the screenplay of the movie. In the screenplay it states that Superman throws Zod to his death.
 
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