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Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)


  • Total voters
    185
Apologies, I misinterpreted what you were saying earlier. I have to agree that the tag scenes are just not the same as they used to be. They seem to be setting up storylines that are still far in the future rather than teasing the next Marvel instalment. I have a problem with this too.
No worries. I doubt I was expressing it all that well because I had conflated both my initial experience and my attitude now. My attitude now is way different than when I first started watching the Marvel films. There's way less draw to me to them, and that stands out as an interesting contrast in my own mind. Not saying there is a right or wrong way, but when the MCU gets held up as "the way" to do things I just have to sensibly chuckle because that way feels exhaustive over time.
 
The MCU isn't "The only way" to do things, it just set a whole bunch of new examples that weren't there before.

But it wasn't like the MCU was doing any of this to create a new standard or tell other Studios how to do stories, they were just doing their own experiment that paid off.

If other Studios are trying to copy them, that shouldn't be MCU's responsibility.
 
The MCU isn't "The only way" to do things, it just set a whole bunch of new examples that weren't there before.
And yet it gets held as the gold standard. If a franchise is failing I see comments about how they should just do like the MCU. SO, if it's not "the standard" it sure gets treated like it.

If other Studios are trying to copy them, that shouldn't be MCU's responsibility.
Strawman. I'm not holding Marvel responsible for other decisions. I'm opining on my general disillusionment with the MCU. Heresey, I know.
 
And yet it gets held as the gold standard. If a franchise is failing I see comments about how they should just do like the MCU. SO, if it's not "the standard" it sure gets treated like it.

DC tried to do the reverse and introduce its characters as a group only to have them spin off into their own movies. Unfortunately, that didn't turn out so well--but not because of the concept, which was a solid one and different from the MCU. Unfortunately, it seems as once again, the execs don't understand what worked and what didn't.
 
And yet it gets held as the gold standard. If a franchise is failing I see comments about how they should just do like the MCU. SO, if it's not "the standard" it sure gets treated like it.

It's not about "gold standards," just about understanding the basics of how to make a film series work. Like I've been saying, the failure of the other attempts is that they prioritized the setup for future films so much that they forgot to make the first film or two good enough to hold an audience. They put the cart before the horse, treating sequels as a given rather than doing the work to earn them. Marvel didn't do that, because they weren't trying to copy an existing success, but started from the ground up, so they only succeded because they did make the individual films strong enough to be a solid foundation for the interconnections.

So we wouldn't be talking about the MCU as a unique success story if other studios weren't so damn stupid about it that they miss the obvious -- that you need to lay solid foundations before you build higher. The only other studio that hasn't jumped the gun was Legendary with its MonsterVerse, taking its time to make distinct standalone films with only slight connective tissue. And it's no coincidence that that's one of the the only shared-universe film franchise attempts to make it past the first one or two tries.
 
It's not about "gold standards," just about understanding the basics of how to make a film series work. Like I've been saying, the failure of the other attempts is that they prioritized the setup for future films so much that they forgot to make the first film or two good enough to hold an audience. They put the cart before the horse, treating sequels as a given rather than doing the work to earn them. Marvel didn't do that, because they weren't trying to copy an existing success, but started from the ground up, so they only succeded because they did make the individual films strong enough to be a solid foundation for the interconnections.

So we wouldn't be talking about the MCU as a unique success story if other studios weren't so damn stupid about it that they miss the obvious -- that you need to lay solid foundations before you build higher. The only other studio that hasn't jumped the gun was Legendary with its MonsterVerse, taking its time to make distinct standalone films with only slight connective tissue. And it's no coincidence that that's one of the the only shared-universe film franchise attempts to make it past the first one or two tries.
OK: small rant ahead and none of which is directed at any one person.

It is the nature of business to want to make a quick buck. I may not be a business major, but I have been in and around businesses and observed enough to know two things; one, business is a marathon and not a sprint in terms of being willing to make profits. Two, humans are extremely impatient. Neither of these are particularly deep but their practical application on the day to day is what makes long term success possible.

As for not a "gold standard," then people need to stop pointing to the MCU and say "Just do that!" Just stop. And this is a general "you" not towards anyone here. But, that's what I see. And it's damn frustrating. I'd rather each studio do it's own thing, forget the "CU" idea and just build the foundation, as you say. But, until that happens I'm going to get slightly perturbed by "just do MCU!" style comments. Also, quite fatigued of the Marvel films in general.

DC tried to do the reverse and introduce its characters as a group only to have them spin off into their own movies. Unfortunately, that didn't turn out so well--but not because of the concept, which was a solid one and different from the MCU. Unfortunately, it seems as once again, the execs don't understand what worked and what didn't.
Studios would do well to take the advice of an outdoor gentleman I used to enjoy reading: do it yourself. Call whatever you want, and if people find similarity to another product that's fine. Redesign a pup tent and call it a "flumph" and if people go, "Looks like a tent" that's all them if you make money off the similarity.
 
It is the nature of business to want to make a quick buck.

That's not in dispute. Obviously they want to succeed. The problem is that too many businesspeople don't understand what will succeed and why. They're not creators, so their assumptions about how the creative process works are as incompetent as, say, my attempts to understand finance would be. All too often, they assume that simply copying something successful will bring success, because they don't understand that what made it succeed was not what it did, but how it was done. They only see the results and don't comprehend the process that produced them.


I may not be a business major, but I have been in and around businesses and observed enough to know two things; one, business is a marathon and not a sprint in terms of being willing to make profits.

That's my point. The other studios think they can skip over the marathon and jump right to the heavily interconnected shared universe. They don't have the patience to do what Marvel (and Legendary) did and earn success through individual movies before phasing in the interconnections.


As for not a "gold standard," then people need to stop pointing to the MCU and say "Just do that!" Just stop. And this is a general "you" not towards anyone here. But, that's what I see. And it's damn frustrating. I'd rather each studio do it's own thing, forget the "CU" idea and just build the foundation, as you say. But, until that happens I'm going to get slightly perturbed by "just do MCU!" style comments. Also, quite fatigued of the Marvel films in general.

I think maybe you're conflating two different ways of invoking Marvel as an example. There's the wrong way, which is to assume that the goal is to copy Marvel's endgame of a shared universe while skipping over the foundational steps that led to it. And there's the way I'm talking about, which is to recognize that Marvel is just about the only studio that didn't screw up that way -- because the screw-up is to copy Marvel's success, and Marvel didn't have that to copy when it started out. The key is to use what Marvel actually did as an example to follow, rather than using the myth that people project onto it. Emulate the substance and process, not just copy the results.
 
Many fans do too.

Which isn't relevant to my point, since all they can do is observe and react. I don't care what opinions spectators may have; that's irrelevant to the actual decisions and whether they work or not. I'm talking about the flaws in thinking that lead to failed strategies on the studios' parts.
 
Which isn't relevant to my point, since all they can do is observe and react. I don't care what opinions spectators may have; that's irrelevant to the actual decisions and whether they work or not. I'm talking about the flaws in thinking that lead to failed strategies on the studios' parts.
The flaw is simply impatience.
 
That's all changed now. I don't care about phases or larger tapestry or bigger worldbuilding. Watching Civil War and Infinity War/Endgame was enough. It's too big, too monstrous, for me to grasp it. I could grasp Phase 1 and was on board. I don't any more.

I have a sort of “critical mass” theory about fictional worlds: Fictional worlds have a pointillist sort of appeal and eventually, if you keep worldbuilding, you sooner or later get to the point where the world is so filled in, so detailed, that further exploration or expansion no longer holds any appeals in and of itself.

This is why so many long-running franchises, like Star Trek, eventually get to a point where they’re more interested in revisiting past ideas than introducing new ones.
 
Apologies, I misinterpreted what you were saying earlier. I have to agree that the tag scenes are just not the same as they used to be. They seem to be setting up storylines that are still far in the future rather than teasing the next Marvel instalment. I have a problem with this too.
Yeah, even I have to admit, that is a bit weird. Where before we got a hint at the next movie, like Thor's Hammer in Iron Man too, now we've got The Eternals setting up Blade, which is 8 movies away. Or things that apparently aren't part of their immediate plans, like Hercules in Love and Thunder.

As for how things are being planned out now, I think it's pretty clear that they are setting things up the same way they did before, it's just that this time up until this year's SDCC know exactly what the endgame (no pun intended) will be. Last time we knew right of the bat that we were building to Avengers and then a version of The Infinity Gauntlet, but this time while it's clear the multiverse is important, we really didn't have that clear of an idea where it was headed until the announcement of Kang Dynasty, Secret Wars and Thunderbolts. I'm thinking now that we're familiar with the multiverse, we'll start to get a clearer look at the big picture of The Multiverse Saga in Quatumania, the same way Guardians of the Galaxy started to show us the bigger picture of the Infinity Saga.
 
Yeah, even I have to admit, that is a bit weird. Where before we got a hint at the next movie, like Thor's Hammer in Iron Man too, now we've got The Eternals setting up Blade, which is 8 movies away. Or things that apparently aren't part of their immediate plans, like Hercules in Love and Thunder.

As for how things are being planned out now, I think it's pretty clear that they are setting things up the same way they did before, it's just that this time up until this year's SDCC know exactly what the endgame (no pun intended) will be. Last time we knew right of the bat that we were building to Avengers and then a version of The Infinity Gauntlet, but this time while it's clear the multiverse is important, we really didn't have that clear of an idea where it was headed until the announcement of Kang Dynasty, Secret Wars and Thunderbolts. I'm thinking now that we're familiar with the multiverse, we'll start to get a clearer look at the big picture of The Multiverse Saga in Quatumania, the same way Guardians of the Galaxy started to show us the bigger picture of the Infinity Saga.

The main issue here is everyone insists on trying to act like phase IV should be a 1-1 comparison to phase I when the two have a very *fundamental* difference. Speed. Phase I released 2 movies in 2008, 1 in 2010, 2 in 2011 and 1 in 2012. Phase IV started last year is now six movies and seven series in. The amount of time that passed between Thor's hammer in IM2 and the Thor movie is essentially the same amount of time that will have passed between Eternals and Blade.
 
The flaw is simply impatience.

I don't think so, since it's a variation of the same mistake media execs have been making for ages, since long before "cinematic universes" became the fashion. Whenever a movie or show succeeds, other studios churn out a bunch of copycat productions of the same genre or format or subject matter (like how Star Wars spawned a wave of FX-driven action flicks, say), and they end up with a string of flops, because the bosses are businesspeople who don't understand creativity, so they don't realize it's not what you do, it's how you do it. The first film didn't succeed because of the format or approach it chose; the format or approach succeeded because its makers did it with skill and freshness.


I have a sort of “critical mass” theory about fictional worlds: Fictional worlds have a pointillist sort of appeal and eventually, if you keep worldbuilding, you sooner or later get to the point where the world is so filled in, so detailed, that further exploration or expansion no longer holds any appeals in and of itself.

This is why so many long-running franchises, like Star Trek, eventually get to a point where they’re more interested in revisiting past ideas than introducing new ones.

Interesting idea, but I'm not convinced. For one thing, a universe like Star Trek is open-ended in space and time, so you can always expand to new parts of it and don't have to run out of room. For another, the fact that it's happening to multiple different franchises around the same time suggests it's more of a generational thing. For instance, here in the West we have Star Trek, Star Wars, and Doctor Who increasingly revisiting their own pasts, while simultaneously in Japan, the major tokusatsu franchises Ultraman, Super Sentai, and Kamen Rider have become driven by a similar nostalgia, with the current heroes deriving their powers and armored/transformed appearances from their predecessors' powers and appearances, or in the case of the past two Ultraman series, being loose remakes/pastiches of series from 25 years ago. (Although in those cases, a lot of it is driven by the desire to sell toy lines based around classic heroes and monsters.)

I think what happens is that when a franchise gets old enough, it gets taken over by people who grew up as its fans, and they turn it into fan fiction for the parts of it they enjoyed growing up. This happened decades ago in comics, when you increasingly got creators who'd started out as fans, and series that had been moving forward over time, changing team composition etc., started getting reset to their old status quos, character growth reversed, and so on to put things back to the "classic" version. Or a whole continuity that's been rebooted and updated with a new approach gets re-rebooted with old elements being put back in (like whether Superman started out as Superboy in Smallville).

The thing is, creators generally like to move forward and try new things and not repeat themselves, but fans like to revisit what they originally loved. So when fans become creators, you get a tension between those forces. Some creators let their fan side become too dominant.
 
If true, then that's two major franchise films in the works for him, the other being the long-percolating fourth Star Trek film.

He's only done one feature film (back in 2014) but I loved his work for WandaVision.
 
She-Hulk had some Marvel and X references on her laptop while surfing in Episode 2

Wolverine?
the Eternals?
mi0a4s5
 
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