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THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN: A fitting name!

It was mentioned in passing that it's been four months since Spidey's first public appearance. I suspect there was a lot of guilt in the beginning, but now we see Petey moving forward again with his life after a very life-changing summer...

That's not the point. I'm aware of that storytelling choice, but I don't like seeing the whole Uncle Ben guilt thing glossed over. I'm still remembering the '70s live-action series that completely eliminated Uncle Ben from Peter's backstory, stripping away the most pivotal thing about Spider-Man as a character.

I know a show aimed at younger viewers can't acknowledge death too openly, but at least, when we saw May talking to Anna about how she missed Ben and then about their money problems, they could've followed up with Peter thinking something like, "It's my fault Ben is gone, because I didn't act when I should have. I'm not going to let Aunt May down again."

Ah, that's Marvel's famous Let Peter Never Know Happiness Policy.

I think enough time has passed since Spidey's first public appearance--and according to the show, Peter was bitten by the radioactive spider the year before--to have dealt with the loss of Uncle Ben and move on. There was a brief moment when Peter touched the picture of himself and Ben that gave him pause, but I don't think this version of Petey is the type to beat himself up forever over it. He's still very much a kid at this point, and a fairly realistic one for a cartoon aimed at kids (IMO, kids these days either self-destruct after a tragic event or learn to move on with their lives).

Besides, he did mention the "With Great Power, There's Great Responsibility" line in passing later, and that was very likely a nod towards Uncle Ben right there...
 
This is where my view on the issue comes in. By turning a white character into a minority, the only message being sent is that the person wanting to add color to the story lacked the imagination and talent to come up with their own compelling character; and the irony by extension is that the paint by numbers move ends up only propagating negative racial stereotypes (such as people of color being "lazy", "stupid" or otherwise "criminal"). Honestly, the best that could be done to represent another race was to steal an existing white character?

That doesn't hold water. If you're doing an adaptation of something where almost the whole main and supporting cast was white, then your choices are either to relegate nonwhite characters to a tiny minority of peripheral roles -- which is hardly inclusive or fair -- or to drop some of the original characters altogether in favor of the new characters you've created (for instance, the way The Batman initially avoided using Commissioner Gordon and gave us Chief Rojas and Detectives Bennett and Yin instead). Using the familiar cast but giving them a little more variety in appearance seems like a perfectly reasonable compromise.

And I do think that's a part of it -- simple visual variety. Animation designers don't want their characters to look alike; they want them to be easy to tell apart as well as having enough variety to be interesting. Think about it. If they wanted to make a character Hispanic, Sally Avril is the logical choice, given her surname. But they made Liz Allen Hispanic instead, because Liz is apparently going to be a more prominent character, so they wanted to give her a distinctive look so she wasn't just another blonde like Gwen. It's no different from their choice to put glasses on Gwen and frump her up a little. Get past all our society's stupid hang-ups about race, this ridiculous notion that it matters one way or the other, and it's a simple design question.

The problem is that our culture makes too big an issue out of ethnicity, assuming it's some huge overriding thing that totally defines a person's identity. I don't see why it's that big a deal. Hell, John Byrne totally changed Lex Luthor from a completely bald genius scientist to a merely balding corporate magnate. I think that's a far huger change than giving him a darker skin pigmentation would've been.

Bleeding hearts can say whatever they like, but I find this kind of half-assed race inclusion to be offensive; it is tantamount to a white actor slapping on black face instead of actually giving the job to a black person.

That's crap. If it's "tantamount to" anything, it's tantamount to casting someone with an actor of different ethnicity. Which has been done plenty of times. Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent in Tim Burton's Batman. Dean Cain (who's half-Japanese) as Clark Kent/Superman. Kristin Kreuk (half-Chinese and raven-haired) as the usually redheaded Lana Lang and Sam Jones III as Pete Ross in Smallville. The TV adaptation of The Dresden Files made an Irish character from the books Hispanic, a Hispanic character from the books blonde, and a white character Indian, not because of any "quotas," but just because they wanted the best actors for the roles regardless of appearance. (For that matter, they cast an Englishman as the American lead and an American as his English sidekick.)

And really, how is that any more horrible than casting the brown-haired John Wesley Shipp as Barry Allen in The Flash, or casting the blue-eyed Chris Pine as Captain Kirk? Why is skin pigment so much more horribly important than hair or eye pigment? Are we ever going to grow up enough as a culture to stop pretending this kind of thing actually matters?

I think enough time has passed since Spidey's first public appearance--and according to the show, Peter was bitten by the radioactive spider the year before--to have dealt with the loss of Uncle Ben and move on. There was a brief moment when Peter touched the picture of himself and Ben that gave him pause, but I don't think this version of Petey is the type to beat himself up forever over it. He's still very much a kid at this point, and a fairly realistic one for a cartoon aimed at kids (IMO, kids these days either self-destruct after a tragic event or learn to move on with their lives).

You're still missing my point. I'm not talking about whether he's still actively grieving. I'm talking about the fact that the events surrounding Uncle Ben's death are his whole motivation for being a superhero, and the moral principle underlying that is what defines and drives his character. And that's what makes Spider-Man such a special character, what makes him more than just some guy who gets superpowers and decides for no good reason to put on goofy Spandex and fight bad guys. So that backstory should be included and acknowledged in any faithful Spider-Man adaptation. It should not be glossed over to the point of invisibility. I don't care whether you can make up rationalizations for why it hasn't been addressed yet. I'm a professional tie-in writer, I'm an expert at making up rationalizations for plot oddities. My point is that it should be addressed, that it's too thematically fundamental to sweep under the rug no matter what excuses you can dream up for doing so.
 
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I think enough time has passed since Spidey's first public appearance--and according to the show, Peter was bitten by the radioactive spider the year before--to have dealt with the loss of Uncle Ben and move on. There was a brief moment when Peter touched the picture of himself and Ben that gave him pause, but I don't think this version of Petey is the type to beat himself up forever over it. He's still very much a kid at this point, and a fairly realistic one for a cartoon aimed at kids (IMO, kids these days either self-destruct after a tragic event or learn to move on with their lives).

You're still missing my point. I'm not talking about whether he's still actively grieving. I'm talking about the fact that the events surrounding Uncle Ben's death are his whole motivation for being a superhero, and the moral principle underlying that is what defines and drives his character.

And that's what makes Spider-Man such a special character, what makes him more than just some guy who gets superpowers and decides for no good reason to put on goofy Spandex and fight bad guys. So that backstory should be included and acknowledged in any faithful Spider-Man adaptation. It should not be glossed over to the point of invisibility. I don't care whether you can make up rationalizations for why it hasn't been addressed yet. I'm a professional tie-in writer, I'm an expert at making up rationalizations for plot oddities.

My point is that it should be addressed, that it's too thematically fundamental to sweep under the rug no matter what excuses you can dream up for doing so.

All that could be summed up in two words:
"Sez you."

I'm glad that this show is taking the approach that it has with Spidey. There's always more than one way to tackle any subject and as a professional tie-in writer, you should know that just because someone does it differently than you would have that doesn't mean that other approach is wrong.
 
Pretty good so far.

The animation is nice and fluid, and the character designs work pretty well.

They seem to be using the younger Ultimate Aunt May, rather than the really, really old 616 version (going just by the voice; it's hard to determine age with this fairly simple art style).

It's interesting that they're taking some time to introduce the familiar elements of the Spider-Man universe; two episodes in, and he hasn't sold a single photo to the Bugle yet, for example. And, of course, MJ isn't here yet.

They've introduced a pretty expansive cast of characters so far, including more than a few characters who bite the big one in the comics, most notably Gwen and Jean DeWolff; Jean is even partnered with Stan Carter here (somewhat alarmingly voiced by the same guy who did Matt Bluestone on Gargoyles, and Jean's design even looks like Elisa a bit).
 
No its just true. As businessmen they've been trained to think they must now make all product a reflection of society. The Hispanic and at times Black coalitions would stage boycotts and protest because of a perceived injustice. I'm open minded enough to say they likely had a point at some time. The PC police(various coalitions and watchdog groups) now insist/highly encourage these type of cast moves.

I will never accept that there's somehow something bad about including nonwhite characters in a show. When you say that, what you're effectively saying is that only white characters should be allowed, and that's a hideous thing to even imply.
I'll say it again. When creating a show from scratch with no established history I could care less what race/religion etc the cast is comprised of. If in 20 years they remake LOST for TV and made Sayid a white man I'd have an issue with that. If Michael and Walt were made into white characters I'd have issue with that. The fact is that Liz Allen is white not hispanic. Now if they wanted variety(which they do) then have Harry date a hispanic character not named Liz Allen. He could date a black and asian over the course of the show and I WOULD NOT CARE as long as they aren't named Liz Allen.

And it is so tiresome to hear people spouting that "PC" catchphrase. It's lost all meaning. Given the current political climate, all the backlash against inclusion, all the political pundits and shock jocks screaming about how wrong it is to acknowledge the very existence of anyone who isn't white and straight, it's meaningless and hypocritical to claim that supporting inclusion is the "politically correct" position.
Backlash against inclusion? I've missed that and I watch/listen to my fair share of pundit and radio talk shows. Who exactly are you referring to that these people "don't want acknowledge their very existence". Anyway I'm sure thats way off topic.

When they are building a show from scratch with no established backstory I could care less. Its when they take something as established as Spiderman and his universe(granted Liz Allen is hardly known) and make the type change they did with Liz.

That's a ridiculous double standard. If they can rewrite Spider-Man's continuity by making Gwen and Harry his friends in high school rather than in college, or change Electro's origin and appearance so drastically, then why do you find a change in ethnicity so unacceptable? Come on, that's trivial in comparison to some of the changes that have been made. If out of all the changes that have been made, the change in ethnicities is the one thing you find intolerable, then... well, I won't say what that implies.
Placing them all in H.S. together or allowing Peter to have a connection pre-villiany is done for the sake of the story. Its a necessity to the story. Changing Liz's ethinicity is done for the sake of doing it. Not because it serves any story purpose and that makes it unacceptable.

Your implication, later called out, is frankly a red herring of its own. The tactic to just label someone without merit is a tactic long used by those wishing to claim the rightness of their own opinion. See he's a _____ and thats evil thought. I'm right, hes wrong, I win. I'll not be labeled as something I'm not and now lets put that away.
Your calling that dude a racist, but it is racist to change a character just because they are white. They can make new characters. It would be the same if they took Blade and made him a white guy because they thought they needed more white guys.
And I'm not one and you make a valid point right off the bat. Thank you.
Your calling that dude a racist, but it is racist to change a character just because they are white.

This is where my view on the issue comes in. By turning a white character into a minority, the only message being sent is that the person wanting to add color to the story lacked the imagination and talent to come up with their own compelling character; and the irony by extension is that the paint by numbers move ends up only propagating negative racial stereotypes (such as people of color being "lazy", "stupid" or otherwise "criminal"). Honestly, the best that could be done to represent another race was to steal an existing white character?

Bleeding hearts can say whatever they like, but I find this kind of half-assed race inclusion to be offensive; it is tantamount to a white actor slapping on black face instead of actually giving the job to a black person.
Exactly why do "creative people" feel its just to change something like this that serves no story purpose. Be creative and imaginative and create a new character. Leave Liz out of it. Lets face it she isn't largely known anyway so have Harry date a hispanic, just not named Liz Allen. No issue then.
 
She's not dating Harry here (she's "popular" and dating Flash, but shows a bit of interest in Peter, although she's still stuck with the "popular" crowd).

I liked this show's Norman: "never apologize", even when you're being flown through the air by a lunatic.
 
The fact is that Liz Allen is white not hispanic.
I don't understand why people in North America consider hispanic people to be anything else than white, it makes no sense, they are european or descendants of europeans. Not every white person has to look like a blue-eyed and blond scandinavian.

Liz Allan was always white and still is, her ancestors just happen to come from a different part of europe. And how do we know that Liz hasn't been hispanic since day one? Have you ever been to spain, there are a lot of light-skinned and blond people.
 
The problem is that our culture makes too big an issue out of ethnicity, assuming it's some huge overriding thing that totally defines a person's identity. I don't see why it's that big a deal. Hell, John Byrne totally changed Lex Luthor from a completely bald genius scientist to a merely balding corporate magnate. I think that's a far huger change than giving him a darker skin pigmentation would've been.

I think you are oversimplifying things, the point is our culture DOES make a big issue out of ethnicity. Making a character black or hispanic has further-reaching implications than merely having "darker skin pigmentation". Ask a black man if making a character black is equal to making a bald character balding.

I made that mistake myself before in these discussions. I generally hear from people that they want to see characters that reflect their culture not just a white character played by a non-white actor.


The fact is that Liz Allen is white not hispanic.
I don't understand why people in North America consider hispanic people to be anything else than white, it makes no sense, they are european or descendants of europeans. Not every white person has to look like a blue-eyed and blond scandinavian.

Liz Allan was always white and still is, her ancestors just happen to come from a different part of europe. And how do we know that Liz hasn't been hispanic since day one? Have you ever been to spain, there are a lot of light-skinned and blond people.

Because many hispanic people in North America are descendants of Central and South American cultures. Trust me when my hometown has Raza festivals and so on it doesn't look like a bunch of Spaniards getting together.
 
Because many hispanic people in North America are descendants of Central and South American cultures. Trust me when my hometown has Raza festivals and so on it doesn't look like a bunch of Spaniards getting together.
Hispanic means spanish or descended from spain, why would anyone lump spanish people and people from South America together?
Whatever, I don't think I will ever understand this stuff, it's so different in europe. Race and ethnicity seems to play a much larger role in North America.
 
Because many hispanic people in North America are descendants of Central and South American cultures. Trust me when my hometown has Raza festivals and so on it doesn't look like a bunch of Spaniards getting together.
Hispanic means spanish or descended from spain, why would anyone lump spanish people and people from South America together?
Whatever, I don't think I will ever understand this stuff, it's so different in europe. Race and ethnicity seems to play a much larger role in North America.

You are right by the etymology of the word but this is from the wiki entry on hispanic:

During the 1970s, the United States Government defined the term "Hispanic" to identify Latin American individuals, and their descendants, living in the U.S., regardless of race.[5]

The ethnic label Hispanic was the result of efforts by a New Mexican U.S. Senator, Joseph Montoya, who wanted a label that could be used to quantify the Spanish-speaking population for the US Census. The label Hispanic was chosen in part because in New Mexico, people of Spanish descent such as Montoya referred to themselves as hispanos which was anglicized as "Hispanic".

The U.S. Office of Management and Budget currently defines "Hispanic or Latino" as "a person of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race".[6]

The terms Hispanic and Latino tend to be used interchangeably in the United States, due largely to a syntax inconsistency between the English language and the Spanish language.[citation needed] Some define the term "Latino" as a shortened version of the noun '"Latin American". Others define the word "Latin" as the name of the language used by the ancient Romans, while "Latino" is the name given to the people who spoke the language.
 
Let's see if we can get back on track. :lol:

Wasn't this show fun? I like the cute geek look Gwen Stacy is sporting. Who are you looking forward to seeing next? I'd like to see what they do with Doctor Octopus, I wonder if they'll go with the comic version, the movie version, or a combination of the two.
 
Well, we got a preview of Otto in the first episode, a nervous and bumbling OsCorp employee, which doesn't particularly jibe with either version; given we've seen how Norman treats other scientists like Toomes, perhaps he'll be bitter over his friend being slighted.
 
This race stuff is really complicated.:eek:

I want to see Shocker, I never liked him, so I'm curious if they find a way to make him interesting.:lol: Scorpion and Chameleon would be nice, I don't want to see Sandman, Rhino or The Lizard right now, it would be stupid to introduce these characters in the first two episodes just to turn them all into supervillains in the next 3 or 4.
I'm not interested in MJ, I hope she doesn't show up until the second half of the season, the supporting cast is big enough, I want to get to know them, before they introduce another non-villain character.
 
Actually this is not first time that Max Dillon has been tenuosly linked to Peter. IN the MTV Spidey show, they were in the same science class. I do not remember if they were friends, but they did know each other.
 
Crap, I totally forgot about this.

Does anyone here know if there are plans to re-air the first few eps, or if they can be seen online?
 
Well, yeah, I mean legally, just like watching episodes of The Office at nbc.com, etc.

And no, I wouldn't. :p
 
I thought it was a pretty good beginning. I liked the first episode more than the second because rather than just having one villain it had a nice little mishmash. I like complicated universes like that, where two different villains bump into each other while trying to bump off Spidey. Also the animation is gorgeous and the characters look great. I knew this show would be great when I heard Greg "Gargoyles" Weisman was in charge!

The real question is will this show top the 90s series, which I enjoyed greatly at the time, though having recently rewatched it, it was a *little* silly.
 
The 90s series had strong writing and stories, but inconsistent animation; if this show can match that writing, and it's probably got superior animation, then it could surpass it. Time will tell.

It's too bad, though, some of the stuff the 90s show had they this one can't use, like the Kingpin and guest star heroes.
 
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