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This thread is inspired by a couple of things: the recent Obi-Wan series ; comments made discussing the PT and the Jedi Order's presentation in there and then Luke's attitude in The Last Jedi. A conversation about the PT and the Jedi came up during a discussion around a new SNW episode so here's a thread to discuss it. @Yistaan and @Charles Phipps
The basic question is how do we view the Jedi now with all the current material? Are they good? A necessary evil to prevent organizations like the Empire but not always good?
There's a little bit of context I want to provide to this discussion. For me, this is probably a question that came up starting with the Prequel Trilogy. The idea in the OT was that the Jedi were a force for good (no pun intended) and Lucas' overall view was that Anakin's return to the Light Side, and Luke becoming a Jedi are high points in the saga.
Except, in the PT and the Clone Wars we are shown very much that the Jedi can be pretty negative in their actions and their beliefs. They eschew attachment to the point of near indifference. The take children at a young age to train them, but also put them in danger. They use the Force to torture information out of prisoners. They appear dogmatic and inflexible at times in their views on the Force and personal relationships. So much so, that even after Ahsoka leaves the Order she still fears training someone who has attachments.
So, how do others view the Jedi? Are they a positive organization? A negative one? Somewhere in between? Has your views changed on them since the PT, Clone Wars, Mandalorian and other series have come out?
A notable indicator of the extent of anti-Jedi sentiment in the fanbase was the reaction to the trailer for TLJ. Many people appeared to agree wholeheartedly that, yes, it was time for the Jedi to end. Of course, it didn't work out that way, as the franchise has consistently maintained a position that it is an overall good thing to have a Jedi order in existence.
A notable indicator of the extent of anti-Jedi sentiment in the fanbase was the reaction to the trailer for TLJ. Many people appeared to agree wholeheartedly that, yes, it was time for the Jedi to end. Of course, it didn't work out that way, as the franchise has consistently maintained a position that it is an overall good thing to have a Jedi order in existence.
Given the poor presentation of the Jedi in the PT and TCW it's hard not to sympathize with Luke in TLJ. I love TLJ and his moment at the end is pure Star Wars for sure.
But, the larger question is are the Jedi good? If so, how?
I believe the Jedi Knights are a force for good in the galaxy and a bunch of heroes who the passing of from the universe was a tragedy. I also believe that George Lucas was going with the view that the Jedi Knights were like the Old Republic itself: they were a good thing and a benevolent thing that had nevertheless become extremely flawed as well as vulnerable due to its overreliance on tradition.
Part of the problem was that fandom in Star Wars forgot the Empire was so much horrifyingly worse than the softened and apologized for Empire of Legends. George Lucas was making a very relevent for the time argument that democracy and progressive politics may not be perfect but it is 100% better than fascism.
Flawed good is always better than evil.
Amusingly, this is the same thing Monty Python's crew were trying to parody in THE LIFE OF BRIAN where all of the revolutionary groups were unable to agree on working together and the conservatives were going to take power unless they stopped eating themselves (and they didn't and the conservatives did).
I think the tricky thing with a question like this is that there's no real objective answer to it. Even before the Clone Wars the Jedi Order was by all accounts a millennia old organization/religion that has seen untold sweeping changes--both gradual and sudden--has schismed more than once, been reduced down to less than a handful of adherents before coming back from the brink, been involved in wars and conflagrations that stretch the length and breadth of know galactic history.
Any organization that exists over even a fraction of that kind of time isn't going to remain consistent and unchanged throughout. One of the reasons I very much disliked the old Dark Horse 'Dawn of the Jedi' comics was how it portrayed the Jedi starting out pretty much exactly as they ended up, with nothing but a few superficial differences to show the passage of millennia. To me that was the worst possible way to do it as it added nothing to the story and legacy of the Jedi, nor say anything interesting about how they came to be. They just sprang into existence almost fully realised from some quite literal deus ex machina.
Looking into the real histories of these kinds of things, one very rarely finds such is the case. Just look at the early history of the Jedis' main inspiration, the Samurai. Just saying that word conjures up all kinds of images and preconceptions, just like "Jedi". But the Samurai of history doesn't always line up with that image. They were originally little more than tax collectors; mercenaries hired to put down peasant clans from rebelling.
I think the same should be true for the Jedi; however they started, it shouldn't much resemble the lightsaber swinging, heroic arbiters of peace and justice we tend to think of.
One notion I've had at the back of my mind for a while is that the very first Jedi weren't warriors at all, but teachers and seekers of knowledge in an age when the galaxy was a vast expanse of mystery and barbarism, dotted by small disconnected havens of civilization.
Descending from a wide spectrum of related force religions, where most of the others were content to meditate in their mountaintop towers, seeking to separate themselves from the material world to achieve enlightenment, or to look within to uncover the true mysteries of the force, the Jedi instead sought not to horde knowledge and understanding, but to share it, and they started by venturing out into the wild untamed galaxy. Starting small at first, they'd travel in small groups, going from system to system, learning what they could, sharing what they could, teaching those that asked for it. Science, medicine, histories, arts, philosophies, theology; all were valued and shared, even adopted if deemed appropriate. As they spread, they would offer their services aboard the great starships to buy passage on their long voyages; serving as wayseekers using the force to chart the fastest courses through hyperspace, healers to tend to the cramped and crowded passengers trying to escape the burgeoning core systems for the untouched colony worlds, never preaching, only listening and teaching when asked.
Eventually they would build great libraries so that any might come to them to learn, sometimes encoding what they knew in their holocrons and sending them out into the galaxy. Over time they would become respected for their pacifism and neutrality, often called to mediate conflicts, negotiate peace settlements. Their integrity unquestioned. Over the centuries the Jedi in the many separated kingdoms and petty empires of the time would start to develop in different ways. Some acting more and more as scholars advising kings, emperors, and councils of wise elders how best to govern their peoples. Some as seers and prophets looking to the future to guide the present. Some even applied their knowledge to the martial arts, for the journeys between the stars were long and dangerous and even a Jedi must sometimes defend themselves from brigands and savages. Jedi came to be seen by holy by some, and despite the best efforts to dissuade it, cults and religions begin to spring up venerating them. Some Jedi would embrace this to turn it to good; founding whole Jedi civilizations in their own right. Some would reconnect with the others, forming a greater whole, others would disappear never to be heard of again, leaving behind only abandoned ruins. Some would inevitably fall to the dark side as the temptation to use their great knowledge selfishly overcame them, forming cults and covens, empires and warbands they preyed on the very people their forebears had sought to serve.
As ages pass and a galaxy turned and changed, so to did the Jedi. Weathering storms of upheavals, famines, blights, golden ages of progress, dark ages of stagnation and loss, the rise and fall of system empires and planetary republics. Somewhere in there began the seeds of the first Republic (known in later ages as the Old Republic) and the Jedi emerged as it's guardians, numbering in the millions and serving every strata of society. Great academies and temples erected on many worlds training knights sworn to guard the Republic from without, seers to foresee the perils and pitfalls that lie ahead, engineers, teachers and healers to tend the people, and a ever, the seekers to venture forth beyond the frontier.
That's about where I see the Jedi becoming somewhat resembling what we think of, only more so. Maybe lightsabers are a thing by this point, maybe not. Maybe they fight empty handed, using only the force and their kyber amulets to focus their abilities. Maybe they had a whole range of kyber powered weapons, or other wonders that can hardly be imagined in lesser ages.
At some point along the way, perhaps in a long age of relative peace and prosperity the Sith schism splits the order asunder, and we generally know what happens from there. Cycles of war and conflict engulf the galaxy for millennia until the Sith finally all but consume themselves and are seemingly extinguished.
Anyway, back to the topic . . .
Indeed I think it's this dissonance of reality and perception that so disillusioned Luke in his later years when he gained a greater, more critical perspective on what they Jedi became in the end.
There's a quote from Dune that I'm rather fond of that speaks to this kind of thing; -
“Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristocratic forms. No government in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, government tends more and more to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class - whether that class be hereditary royalty, oligarchs of financial empires, or entrenched bureaucracy.
- Politics as Repeat Phenomenon: Bene Gesserit Training Manual”
It should hardly be surprising that by it's waning years that the very system within the Order itself had become corrupted, even when the individuals that served it did so with the purest intentions. The reason is that this kind of slide is a slow process, it happens by increments. A compromise here, a expedited decision there, the odd inconvenient truth supressed for the greater good. Before you know it, the organization ceases to perform it's intended function and is acting only in it's own interest. What's more, the people within it a blind to why they're failing because the assumption that it's continued existence it essential goes unquestioned, even when it's actively damaging, even killing the very thing it's meant to preserve. So they get more desperate and extreme, and down goes the spiral into stagnation and self-destruction.
So are the Jedi a "good" thing? Depends which Jedi you're talking about. Which era, which individuals, which crisis, which decisions.
By the Clone Wars they were already a doomed Order. Drowning in dogma, blinded by arrogance, and bound by their own complacency. Even two centuries prior during the High Republic era the warning signs were already there; even when the galaxy was at peace the cracks in the rot had set it. They styled themselves as heroic warrior monks, flattered themselves with stories of how they overcame the great darkness that was the ancient Sith and save the galaxy.
In a way I think this might have been what Yoda really meant when he told Luke he would be the last of the Jedi. Not the last still living to call themselves Jedi, or to have been knighted. The last to truly be what the Jedi were *supposed* to be. Not great warriors, but guardians of peace, and he was right because how did Luke defeat evil? By casting aside his weapon and refusing to fight evil on it's own terms. Doesn't matter if Ahsoka, Ezra, Cal, Vos, Grogu, or whoever else may have been left still drew breath; in that moment he was a Jedi. He did what the Order should have done a hundred times over before their fall. Refused to be Generals in a war that could only serve the Dark Side. Refused to put themselves forward as the indispensable warriors for light and life.
The Jedi were a religious force (no pun intended) for good; unlike the members of the senate, Palpatine (and his alter ego), and others who lived for self-interest or the exploitation of others, the Jedi worked and fought for the benefit of others--even if it was detrimental to their own health and safety. The only "flaw" in the Jedi--at least as depicted in the PT--was 1) not analyzing the why behind Palpatine's motives regarding the separatists from the start and worst of all, 2) taking on a moron like Anakin. It was self-obsessed Anakin who--despite the best training anyone could ask for--always rejected reason, logic and sense in favor of his own, ever-questionable motives, which failed him time and time again at the most critical points in his life.
If not for that dullard, Mace--doing exactly what the galaxy needed--would have killed Sidious which would not only end the Sith threat forever, but continue the process of weeding out the corrupt agents of the member worlds, and possibly restore some semblance of justice instead of mass greed / cronyism / abuse (which was obviously ramped up by the Empire).
The Jedi were more than capable of aiding in that process, as it was inherent to their being. It was the galaxy which changed around them (and forced the Jedi into situations beyond their control / or allowed them to take the blame for directives coming from others), not the Jedi sun-setting into corruption or self-interest.
If not for that dullard, Mace--doing exactly what the galaxy needed--would have killed Sidious which would not only end the Sith threat forever, but continue the process of weeding out the corrupt agents of the member worlds, and possibly restore some semblance of justice instead of mass greed / cronyism / abuse (which was obviously ramped up by the Empire).
I'm reasonably sure that Sidious was just playing possum, and Mace never stood a chance either way.
Even if that's not the case, I'm equally certain that if Mace had killed Palpatine, he would have done as he said he would and take control . . . and that's where it'd all spiral out of control.
The Order would be split between those who oppose the idea that they have any business taking power, and those that back Windu. That's not even counting the public and military reaction to a coup d'etat.
Windu not being the type to back down and always convinced that the ends justify the means would tighten his grip; declare martial law, arrest any potential rebellious ringleaders, and order the clone forces still under his control to move in on Raxus to bring a swift end to the war.
It'd be a full on Jedi civil war with Windu and his cadre of Loyalist Jedi Generals on one side, and a rallying group of dissidents leveraging the personal loyalty of the troops under their command on the other. Even money as to which side of that Anakin might fall, though Kenobi and Yoda would definitely oppose Windu. All the while the Separatists aren't going anywhere, but with their leadership decapitated and Raxus under siege, the internal factions are going to start breaking away to protect their own interests. Several of the larger commerce guilds like the Trade Federation are going to drop all pretence and flat out start declaring their own fiefdoms. Republic worlds that were already wavering in support of the war, or who's only loyalty was to whatever leverage Sidious had used to keep them in line would secede, either throwing in their lot with one of the Separatist factions, or making a go of it as independent systems. With all this going on, Maul's last loyal commandos stage a rescue, and the underworld becomes a true galactic power in it's own right.
Surrounded by enemies and traitors, Windu will do what he feels he must, not realising he's already fallen to the dark side and there's no going back. Sengoku jidai on a galactic scale. It won't be the Empire, but it will be dark times that the galaxy won't recover from for generations, if ever.
. . . and all that is assuming Palaptine didn't set up a failsafe to automatically trigger Order 66 in the event of his death. Or worse, a version of Operation Cinder in which the entire clone army seeming goes rogue and starts glassing every inhabited world they can, deploying every nasty super-weapon and secret project both sides had been developing throughout the war. Then it'd be the end of galactic civilization in any meaningful sense and a return to the barbarism and free-for-all not seen since before the time of the Old Republic.
I have not kept up on any comics or novels in years, but my take... Good intentions, but misguided and lost their way without realizing it. Even when Jedi masters saw that things were going in the wrong direction they let themselves get so busy with the growing upheavals and whatnot that they put off dealing with it until later. Yoda recognized that arrogance was "a flaw more and more common among Jedi." And as Mace said, their ability to use "The Force" had diminished; perhaps that was the Living Force's way of hinting that something wasn't quite right with the Jedi Order? And they were supposed to be "keepers of the peace, not soldiers," but then they took charge in the war as generals. Luke had a point about the hypocrisy and hubris of the Jedi.
The Clone Wars was a distraction. They noticed there was a problem but kept insisting that they needed to bring the war to an end, than address the problems.
Let's talk about them returning because of Anakin and Luke. As just established in your post, the Clone Wars made it apparent there were fractures of corruption within the Order. Is it a good thing then that the Jedi returned in, um, Return of the Jedi?
The Clone Wars was a distraction. They noticed there was a problem but kept insisting that they needed to bring the war to an end, than address the problems.
First and foremost it was a trap. If knew if they ignored it, the darkness they already felt surrounded by would overtake everything. The only option was forwards.
Comparing it to Dune; the Atredies knew they were walking into a trap, but knowing the trap exists is the first step in surviving it.
The mistake the Jedi made was in believing that the Sith were only backing the Separatists, which is what motivated the initial desire to end the war as soon as possible, which is why the agreed to be Generals for the Republic's army. By the time they realised Sidious was playing both sides against the middle it was already far too late to change course. They only hope was to charge ahead and hope to chase the Sith down before the galaxy tore itself apart.
Yoda even says towards the end that victory won't come from the Clone War, but there was hope for victory for all time. He'd come to realise how wrong they'd been, but knew hope still existed for something beyond the war to defeat the Sith.
Let's talk about them returning because of Anakin and Luke. As just established in your post, the Clone Wars made it apparent there were fractures of corruption within the Order. Is it a good thing then that the Jedi returned in, um, Return of the Jedi?
Objectively? I mean it's because of Luke bringing back the Jedi (setbacks, mistake, failures and all) that Palapatine was finally defeated (again!) If he hadn't the Sith would have overrun the galaxy once more, and this time for the long haul. Not that I'm thrilled about that whole thing from a storytelling POV, but it is what it is.
Even ignoring that, the problem with the Jedi by the Clone Wars was systemic, not philosophical. They were mired in politics, bureaucracy and dogma. Sacrificing principles for expediency. Justifying the means for the sake of the ends.
Restarting the Order wouldn't carry across the same systemic flaws, but would refocus on the latter. Those flaws may crop up again down the line in a century or ten, but that's always going to be the case. There's no such thing as "happily ever after", balance is a constant struggle, and the darkness is never truly ended, only temporarily defeated.
The problem with the Jedi is that they are people. Doesn't matter if one is Human or not, they have the same strengths and weaknesses that all people have. Mistakes can and often will be made, and the Jedi Order was not immune to this. Throughout the long history of the Republic, the Jedi seem to have done far more good than harm, but by the time of the Prequel Trilogy, they had become ridged, monolithic, and somewhat detached. Like the Old Republic itself, the Jedi were vulnerable to the machinations of Darth Sidious and paid the price for their complacency.
Looking back on the Skywalker Saga, I don't think we've ever seen the Jedi at their best. They were in decline in the Prequels, decimated and scattered to the winds in the Originals, and basically defunct in the Sequels. Maybe things will change in a future production, but for now, the Jedi seem kind of weak as far as onscreen material goes. More than once, the Jedi had deteriorated to the point where only a Skywalker was their last hope...
Given the poor presentation of the Jedi in the PT and TCW it's hard not to sympathize with Luke in TLJ. I love TLJ and his moment at the end is pure Star Wars for sure.
But, the larger question is are the Jedi good? If so, how?
