Its a new ship, the proof was in the pudding visually. The ship moved better but I didn't like the shakedown sub-plot which seemed preposterous to have a vessel in those conditions to be active on a mission.
What was the point in the 1701 refit?
- Thread starter Richard S. Ta
- Start date
All true, but when evaluating the Enterprise in those 3 movies I fail to see the point in a so-called re-fit which was established in the movies she was 20 years old. Can we stop making excuses with the behind the scenes information and look at the movie objectively AS IS, please?
It’s a fictional work. There are different ways of evaluating it. I would say the “authorial intent” in the II-III-IV trilogy was to ignore that TMP ever happened and to pretend the Enterprise had always looked that way. I think the 20 year thing was a reference to the 1960s. That’s my analysis.
Ok, then Kirk & Crew were selfish and treated the USS Enterprise NCC-1701 as his personal vessel to do with as he pleased despite StarFleet Commands orders to retire the vessel.
It was about to be retired, and he wanted to save his 1st Officer / BFF Spock & to hell with whatever happens to his ship.
So Kirk, in his infinite selfishness, hijacked the Enterprise for one last mission. Because he wasn't ready / properly crewed, he wrecked the Enterprise by Self Destructing it knowing that he had no way to defeat a simple surprise attack / Klingon Boarding party with his less than Skeleton Crew.
If Kirk was fully crewed and ready, that Klingon Surprise Attack & Boarding party wouldn't have been a threat at all.
But because Kirk disobeyed orders from StarFleet command, he wrecked what was about to become a legendary museum just to defeat a Klingon Boarding party.
But, in the end, he got his 1st Officer / BFF Spock back and got his soul back into his body.
And because of all that, StarFleet Command eventually forgave him with a demotion, then eventual re-promotion after many years due to the fact that Kirk is a legend; regardless of insubordination & what would've been court martial-able offenses to any regular StarFleet officer thanks to him bringing back Whales from the past, into the future to save Earth from the Whale Probe.
Save Humanity & Earth, you get forgiven for stealing & wrecking a prized / legendary StarShip that you commanded.
Weird how StarFleet command works.
It's almost like you get special treatment for saving an entire planet and Billions of lives.
I'm not sure of the question as I only referenced the writers of doing a crap job in getting the Enterprise destroyed in "The Search for Spock"...
As to why the Enterprise was refit and redesigned we'll probably never know in-universe. Some of the answers here makes sense in that it could be new technology that required radically changing the ship to make everything fit and work. What we do know is that the new Enterprise wasn't meant for Kirk.
That was a popular take enshrined in fandom’s From the Files of Star Fleet Command (1980).
When TMP was made, the implication was definitely that the refit design was brand new and that the Enterprise was the first ship to receive this upgrade, and other ships would either be upgraded accordingly or new builds would look like the refit. However, in retrospect. the retconny nature of newTrek has made me think otherwise. Between knowing the launch date of the Reliant and seeing the Starfleet ships in DSC season 1, I now get the impression that the TMP-style design was around even before TOS, and that the Enterprise was one of the last ships to get the upgrade. But even before that, the idea that the Enterprise would be decommissioned even after being upgraded only 15 years before, and the Enterprise-A being decommissioned as well (along with the Soyuz class), seems to imply that the TMP refit design was a lot older than what we originally thought. Of course, why the TMP-era Miranda, Constellation and Sydney classes continued production into the mid-to-late 24th century, I have no answer for (other than the real-world reason.)
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Visually, excepting a letter 'A', I see little difference in how new the refit looks and how new the replacement looks? If any difference at all. Both look equally new.
The 1701 Refit was destroyed in TSFS - before then it wasn't a museum piece (at least I don't recall the movies mentioning anyhing about that). It was just sitting in space dock and then SF decided not to repair it or put it back into action.
We don't know for certain if the 1701-A as seen in TVH was a completely new Constitution class ship or another rundown Connie that was refit... but I got the impression it was brand new that because of that it was also untested and had many problems. (otherwise, if it was a refitted older Constitution class, its possible it wouldn't have suffered from same problems - or , it may have... the refit was effectively like getting a brand new ship).
I agree that such a vessel (with as many problems) shouldn't have been placed into action... who the heck thought it was a good idea to allow a ship that barely works should be put into active duty?
Discovery violated TOS through ENT canon in too many ways for me to pay any attention to it.
When you look at what everyone was doing around ships of the TOS and movie era, you get the clump of Constitution/Saladin/Hermes/Ptolemy classes and their various refits (The Cage, WHMHGB, TOS Series, and FJ), the Federation Class, the Miranda Class, the Excelsior Class, the Oberth Class, the Constellation Class. If you add in FASA you get a whole lot more (Larson, Loknar, Baker, Chandley, etc.). But there is a clear progression of technology. I see it as a quest for the better ship, to catch up to where the Klingons were. The Constitution was good, but the Federation was better. The Saladin/Hermes were good, but the Miranda and Oberth were better. And the Federation was just a step to the Excelsior and the Constellation gets added in. The Constitution et al were 40 years old when the Excelsior and Constellation came along. The Federation was less than 20. Then over the next 80 years after that you have the Ambassador and Galaxy. and 10 years later the Sovereign.
You can see from the designs that the Oberth, Miranda, Constellation, and Excelsior have more useful designs than the Constitution and FJ design. So those old ones all go away. The technology in the later ships is good, but the ones that came after is better and the hulls are better suited to the needed missions. The Oberth is small, good for science and courier missions. The Miranda has two hangers and a good deal of internal room and good fire power. The Constellation has extensive hangers, a huge amount of space. The Excelsior is an upgraded Constitution in almost every way. So even though the 1701-A is relatively new, it is quickly displaced by the other classes that have more to offer. And as far as we know, it could have been renamed and gone on to see more service but in a less glorious role. It was decommissioned to name the next Excelsior Class ship Enterprise (was that the 2nd or 10th Excelsior... we don't know).
There are parallels in the US Navy to this. Though usually the US Navy has a multiple generations. But surplus ships of older classes are often swiftly decommissioned even if they are relatively new. The Essex Class was particularly subject to this. A couple were decomissioned right after the war and served less than 10 years. Ohers in the class served for over 30 years. Many that continued to serve were updated with an angled flight deck, though a few were not. Two of the three Midway Class served for served for over 40 years while the third for only 32. The Forrestal Class served just shy of 40 years each. The Kittle Hawk Class (including the JFK) served just shy of 50 years each. Enterprise for 50 years. The Nimitz has been commissioned for 47 years with no word that she will be decommissioned any time soon. The class is was designed with a 50 year service life, but if needed they could serve longer. The two pre-war carriers that survived the war, Saratoga and Enterprise, both had roughly 10 years of service. So we have gone from 10 to 50 years of service in a 30 year span (1930 to 1960).
So for the Federation, they went from a class with a 40 year life to a class with a 100 year life in 40 years. And the remaining ships of the Constitution Class were either retired or relegated to lesser roles in the fleet. So the parallels are strong to what we have seen in Aircraft Carriers. So are the names.
Has... "They were afraid fans of the Enterprise would hate/boycott if they didn't have the original ship in the film", already been taken?
That, and it needed to be rebuilt for the big screen anyway, are my choices.
The plan worked for me. TMP fly-around convinced me it was the same ship. I believed the big lie for decades.
When the refit plunged into Genesis I felt it was the original going down.
That, and it needed to be rebuilt for the big screen anyway, are my choices.
The plan worked for me. TMP fly-around convinced me it was the same ship. I believed the big lie for decades.
When the refit plunged into Genesis I felt it was the original going down.
Admiral Morrow explains to the Enterprise crew that the ship is going to be decommissioned, because "her day is over" or something like that. He doesn't specifically mention a museum, but it's clear that the ship is considered too old and outdated to be in active service.
No. Judging from V* and VI the A moved a lot smoother than the 20 year old Constitution Class, also the interior was path of what future starship designs would be including the warp core. The hull for the A appeared to take a hard punch than the 20 year old, visually A was the better vessel.
*Not sure if TNG warp core was installed but I can assume it had.
The Enterprise was designated as a vessel for trainees, this meant to me it was close to becoming decommissioned. I hated the notion the Enterprise was old since TMP made an effort to give hints the best was yet to come...
Yeah, that makes a lot more sense if you ignore the revamp and pretend the Enterprise is a fifty-year-old ship. As does the decision to decommission it in TSFS. Of course, Morrow's line is that she's "twenty years old", which doesn't seem all that old for a starship. Hell, my car is more than twenty years old.
Hey, Indiana Jones said it best, "Its the not age... its the mileage." Besides as this thread presented, what was the point in refitting the Enterprise? It was a lot slower, it barely worked, engineering team had to wear radioactive suits, and it gets destroyed in the 3rd movie. Best to make the movie version its own reality and leave TOS out of this. Its not the same Enterprise, the movie's Constitution Class / 20 years old vessel "talk the talk" but couldn't "walk the walk".Yeah, that makes a lot more sense if you ignore the revamp and pretend the Enterprise is a fifty-year-old ship. As does the decision to decommission it in TSFS. Of course, Morrow's line is that she's "twenty years old", which doesn't seem all that old for a starship. Hell, my car is more than twenty years old.
How so?
If you recall, the Excelsior class was already in service by this point, and I think it was intended to replace the Constitution class (more or less).
The Connie was an older ship design which was refit to include modern technology, but the Excelsior was designed and built much later... probably improving on things that Connie lacked.
Considering we saw the Excelsior class in use for over 100 years, no ship can get 'too old' if its continuously upgraded and refreshed over time with modern technology and standards.
I think back then, Admiral Morrow may have said that because plans for upgrading older ships for longer periods of time may not have been drawn out.
Replicators didn't come into the scene until sometime in the 24th century.. and with the Excelsior class being still in service, it may have 'crossed the threshold' where initial replicator tech became available, and it became easier to upgrade older ship designs to latest standards.
And who knows, its also possible the Constitution class received similar design upgrades in the 24th century and was then brought out of 'hybernation' (so to speak).
Or, Starfleet may not have revived the design until sometime in the 25th century, giving it a complete overhaul to bring it again in line with latest standards and morwe frequently upgraded from that point.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall anything from canon (TV shows or movies) saying the Enterprise was designated as a vessel for trainees.
As far as I recall, this notion was entertained by unconfirmed sources, but officially (from canon point of view), I don't recall anything being said that confirmed this.
Any vessel receiving frequent upgrades while in active service will eventually overcome intial inefficiencies.
And, wearing radioactive suits in the 23rd century may have been a necessity on ANY starship of that era until a better warp core material shielding was developed (which would be integrated on other ships - and combined with internal forcefield technology perhaps). Perhaps they used different methods in M/AM power generation which required use of radiation suits in close proximity to the core in that era.
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I've always thought that perhaps the Refit 1701 was a testbed for a lot of new technologies (the novel pretty much states this) and whilst these were successful, they were in prototype form. By the time of TWOK a lot of ships had either been refitted or built with the production versions of this tech and the Enterprise had been relegated to a training ship. Once she was damaged there wasn't any point spending resources on repairing her and given her age it would be better to decommission the ship.
The 1701-A is either an older ship refit with new tech or a new ship, Roddenberry apparently suggested it was the Yorktown and this ship is seen in Trek IV being affected by the probe. Perhaps she was one of the last ships to be refitted and was on trials. On recovering the ship it could have been hastily renamed Enterprise and re-numbered. Either way it was decommissioned after the events of Trek VI around seven years later.
Now why was it decommissioned so soon? If it was the Yorktown then perhaps she had actually been refitted not long after the Enterprise refit and was getting a bit long in the tooth. Perhaps she was now structurally compromised given the damage she received in VI and with a reduced Klingon threat fewer ships were needed (this could apply to a refit ship or a relatively new one). Perhaps she reverted to her original name leaving the name Enterprise free for a new ship.
It doesn't necessarily follow that just because some ships of a class have been decommissioned the other members of the class are obsolete. Take the Burke class destroyer. They have been in production for 30+ years and will probably be built for another 10 at least. With the initial ships likely to be decommissioned after 45 years service that means that when the Burke goes to the scrapyard some of her sisters will be virtually new ships. Block obsolescence is something we're used to because of the large number of ships built to fight two world wars and the need to replace those ships in a hurry in the 60s and 70s. But it no longer applies and it's actually better to have a rolling programme of replacements. The Constitution class may have served into the Next Gen timeframe we just never saw them (apart from a secondary hull in BoBW). It's likely however given what we see that once the Excelsior class went into full production, fewer of them were built, unlike the Miranda class which may have been selected as an easier design to make (it's more compact and could be built in smaller facilities perhaps).
The 1701-A is either an older ship refit with new tech or a new ship, Roddenberry apparently suggested it was the Yorktown and this ship is seen in Trek IV being affected by the probe. Perhaps she was one of the last ships to be refitted and was on trials. On recovering the ship it could have been hastily renamed Enterprise and re-numbered. Either way it was decommissioned after the events of Trek VI around seven years later.
Now why was it decommissioned so soon? If it was the Yorktown then perhaps she had actually been refitted not long after the Enterprise refit and was getting a bit long in the tooth. Perhaps she was now structurally compromised given the damage she received in VI and with a reduced Klingon threat fewer ships were needed (this could apply to a refit ship or a relatively new one). Perhaps she reverted to her original name leaving the name Enterprise free for a new ship.
It doesn't necessarily follow that just because some ships of a class have been decommissioned the other members of the class are obsolete. Take the Burke class destroyer. They have been in production for 30+ years and will probably be built for another 10 at least. With the initial ships likely to be decommissioned after 45 years service that means that when the Burke goes to the scrapyard some of her sisters will be virtually new ships. Block obsolescence is something we're used to because of the large number of ships built to fight two world wars and the need to replace those ships in a hurry in the 60s and 70s. But it no longer applies and it's actually better to have a rolling programme of replacements. The Constitution class may have served into the Next Gen timeframe we just never saw them (apart from a secondary hull in BoBW). It's likely however given what we see that once the Excelsior class went into full production, fewer of them were built, unlike the Miranda class which may have been selected as an easier design to make (it's more compact and could be built in smaller facilities perhaps).
It wasn't quite in service, more like preparing for its first shakedown cruises. The chief engineer had only just reported for duty.
But yes, it seemed clearly intended to replace the Constitution class as the backbone of the Starfleet. And boy, did that turn out to be a good move.
It's stated in dialogue that the Enterprise is just "a boatload of children." Spock himself states:
Now, that doesn't mean the Enterprise had been permanently assigned to the Academy as a training vessel. But at the beginning of TWOK, that was certainly her current assignment.
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