Jennifer Lien

[Lynx]

Well, I don't hate Spirit Folk and Fair Haven per se, but in my eyes, they're just fluff. They add nothing substantial to the Voyager narrative. We already know that they often run the same holoprograms to relax a bit, that Janeway is alone and that holograms can apparently become sentient, after all.

As for Kes dying, I don't think it would have been necessary to address, because at the point in time when the Voyager finale took place, she probably would have had about a year left.

I'm not necessarily against giving her a normal life span close to the very end of the series, but I think the risk of it feeling much like an artificially sweetened and forced ending would be fairly high. I probably would have less qualms with it if that were to happen at some point in the middle of the series.

I totally agree with your comments here.

When it comes to Spirit Folk and Fair Haven, I don't hate them either. I just find them........well, unnecessary. As you wrote, they added nothing to the Voyager story. The same for the season 3 Real Life (which I constantly miss-write as Still Life which is an Iron Maiden song with the chorus Nightmaaaaaaares ) which was the first Voyager episode I saw when I actually thought "now what in the world is this?" and for that Flotter episode in season 5. They always makes me wonder "what in the world has this to do with Star Trek". I sometimes see such episodes as evidence for the writers having a bad day when they totally lost all inspiration.

However, how bland those episodes might be, they aren't insulting, like that episode who I think everyone knows about.

As for a prolonged Kes lifespan, it should have been done in season 2, 3 or 4, (or why not in the beginning of season 7 ), not at the end of the series for the same reasons as you state in your post.

 

[Lynx]

A life well lived and saying goodbye are not meaningless.

Even Voyager tackled this idea with the Doctor in "Real Life."

Funny that you mention Real Life. Read my comments about it in the post above which I wrote before seeing your comment.

I can agree about your comments about "a life well lived and saying goodbye are not meaningless".

But when they make that some syrupy, sticky episode, more and less wallowing in the grief as some sort of entertainment, then you can count me out. I hate such scenarios.

Why? because I've experienced similar situations myself and there is nothing glorious and entertaining about it, just the ice cool reality of death.

 

[at Quark's]

Considering that the writing team of the time thought "Endgame" (AKA spend a hour telling us what didn't happen to the crew and never tell us what did) was a good idea, perhaps it's just as well that Kes wasn't there.

It may have been unsatisfying to the regular Voyager viewers, but perhaps it was a smart move in terms of the broader franchise.

After all, if you don't show what happened afterwards you have more freedom to bring Voyager characters in in later series or in cameos (as is now happening in Picard). Suppose that 7 dying on an away mission in the DQ (as we are told happened in the Admiral Janeway timeline) had been the 'real' future - then they would have had a logical inconsistency to resolve here. Not that they would necessarily have minded such a logical inconsistency

They did the same in TNG - we saw a possible future but not the real future, and DS9 - they never went beyond the characters recollecting and saying goodbyes - I suppose to keep all such options open.

I sometimes see such episodes as evidence for the writers having a bad day when they totally lost all inspiration.

Me too. It's not just Voyager either, all series have those kinds of episodes. All classical series up till and including Enterprise, anyway. (Haven't seen enough of the newer series to judge them).

 

[fireproof78]

Funny that you mention Real Life. Read my comments about it in the post above which I wrote before seeing your comment.

I can agree about your comments about "a life well lived and saying goodbye are not meaningless".

But when they make that some syrupy, sticky episode, more and less wallowing in the grief as some sort of entertainment, then you can count me out. I hate such scenarios.

Why? because I've experienced similar situations myself and there is nothing glorious and entertaining about it, just the ice cool reality of death.

Interesting. I'm not one to shy away from it in stories.

 

[Oddish]

When it comes to Spirit Folk and Fair Haven, I don't hate them either. I just find them........well, unnecessary. As you wrote, they added nothing to the Voyager story. The same for the season 3 Real Life (which I constantly miss-write as Still Life which is an Iron Maiden song with the chorus Nightmaaaaaaares ) which was the first Voyager episode I saw when I actually thought "now what in the world is this?" and for that Flotter episode in season 5. They always makes me wonder "what in the world has this to do with Star Trek". I sometimes see such episodes as evidence for the writers having a bad day when they totally lost all inspiration.

Well, I didn't really mind "Fair Haven", it explored a very real issue that Janeway faced: it's lonely at the top. And "Once Upon a Time" was tolerable, too; I liked Naomi, and don't think that focusing one episode on her was unreasonable. "Real Life" was rendered intolerable not by what it was, but by the show's habit of jumping up and down on the Reset Button.

However, how bland those episodes might be, they aren't insulting, like that episode who I think everyone knows about.

Oh, right... "Barge of the Dead", right?

Ok, I know. I've milked that joke for all it's worth. Moving on...

As for a prolonged Kes lifespan, it should have been done in season 2, 3 or 4, (or why not in the beginning of season 7 ), not at the end of the series for the same reasons as you state in your post.

And easy to manage, really... given that the Ocampa seem to spend most of their nine years as basically young adults, then hyper-age at the end. Surely that final sequence could be slowed or delayed. Maybe the Doc develops a hyper-metabolic stabilizer, or a rapid-onset geriatric decelerant, or something else equally technobabbly.

Kes's abbreviated lifespan was a premise, and there's nothing wrong with changing a premise as long as you respect your audience's intelligence by generating an explanation. If Voyager had just stuck in a few lines of dialogue about a new industrial replicator or trading for photonic cores on Planet Weaselwood, the 95 torpedoes they fired would not have bothered me at all. Same with Kes's lifespan.

 

[Summer Solstice]

I totally agree with your comments here.

When it comes to Spirit Folk and Fair Haven, I don't hate them either. I just find them........well, unnecessary. As you wrote, they added nothing to the Voyager story. The same for the season 3 Real Life (which I constantly miss-write as Still Life which is an Iron Maiden song with the chorus Nightmaaaaaaares ) which was the first Voyager episode I saw when I actually thought "now what in the world is this?" and for that Flotter episode in season 5. They always makes me wonder "what in the world has this to do with Star Trek". I sometimes see such episodes as evidence for the writers having a bad day when they totally lost all inspiration.

However, how bland those episodes might be, they aren't insulting, like that episode who I think everyone knows about.

As for a prolonged Kes lifespan, it should have been done in season 2, 3 or 4, (or why not in the beginning of season 7 ), not at the end of the series for the same reasons as you state in your post.

It kind of goes to show we all like/dislike different things. The Irish stereotypes in "Spirit Folk" and "Fair Haven" really bother me plus they are fairly boring episodes. I liked "Real Life" - Tom has a nice scene with the EMH towards the end. Like Oddish, I would have liked to have seen the EMH's family again. I love "Once Upon A Time" which I think is the Flotter episode you are talking about. As Sam isn't a main character it did seem like she might die and Ethan Philips did a really good job in that episode.

It may have been unsatisfying to the regular Voyager viewers, but perhaps it was a smart move in terms of the broader franchise.

After all, if you don't show what happened afterwards you have more freedom to bring Voyager characters in in later series or in cameos (as is now happening in Picard). Suppose that 7 dying on an away mission in the DQ (as we are told happened in the Admiral Janeway timeline) had been the 'real' future - then they would have had a logical inconsistency to resolve here. Not that they would necessarily have minded such a logical inconsistency

They did the same in TNG - we saw a possible future but not the real future, and DS9 - they never went beyond the characters recollecting and saying goodbyes - I suppose to keep all such options open.

That's a good point. I had not considered it in terms of the broader franchise. I'm glad they didn't kill off Seven. I think "All Good Things" would have bothered me as much as "Endgame" did at the time if we hadn't seen what happened to the characters next in the movies. Chakotay was the character that I wondered about the most: Neelix had a conclusion to his story, I don't think Tom would have to go back to jail because he's behaved fairly well for years, B'Elanna will probably avoid much/any jail time because she's the daughter-in-law of an admiral although I don't know whether she and/or Tom would want to stay in Starfleet, Harry will have a stellar career in Starfleet, Tuvok will spend some time with his family and may or may not want to continue in Starfleet, the EMH would have exactly the life we see him have in the other timeline, I assumed that Seven would join Starfleet and we see that Janeway is an admiral in Nemesis. But Chakotay died before he had a trial in the original timeline and as he was a Maquis captain he might have had quite a long prison sentence and we just don't know (I'm sure Prodigy will tell us...).

Well, I didn't really mind "Fair Haven", it explored a very real issue that Janeway faced: it's lonely at the top. And "Once Upon a Time" was tolerable, too; I liked Naomi, and don't think that focusing one episode on her was unreasonable. "Real Life" was rendered intolerable not by what it was, but by the show's habit of jumping up and down on the Reset Button.

Janeway did face a very real issue but (to me) she didn't feel particularly like Janeway in "Fair Haven". I think she would have been more herself if she'd copied the Michael hologram to a program that wasn't public and made all the changes she'd wanted to him. ("Delete the wife" was totally in character.) Janeway is charismatic enough that she could have dated an alien and persuaded him to join Voyager. And Janeway could have dated someone who wasn't in the chain of command, which is Kes, Neelix and to a lesser extent Seven. In the early seasons Kes is Janeway's friend that she can confide in (I think we see this in "Tuvix") and I don't think she has a friend like that in the later seasons which is part of why she probably feels lonely.

 

[fireproof78]

Kes's abbreviated lifespan was a premise, and there's nothing wrong with changing a premise as long as you respect your audience's intelligence by generating an explanation. If Voyager had just stuck in a few lines of dialogue about a new industrial replicator or trading for photonic cores on Planet Weaselwood, the 95 torpedoes they fired would not have bothered me at all. Same with Kes's lifespan.

Exactly. I have zero issue with Kes living longer but you can work with it, either by lengthing her life (fine by me) or celebrating her life regardless of how short. I get that death is an uncomfortable subject but I personally am willing to explore it, especially in the realm of fiction, when I know I can control some aspect. In real life, that's much different.

 

[Lynx]

Well, I didn't really mind "Fair Haven", it explored a very real issue that Janeway faced: it's lonely at the top. And "Once Upon a Time" was tolerable, too; I liked Naomi, and don't think that focusing one episode on her was unreasonable. "Real Life" was rendered intolerable not by what it was, but by the show's habit of jumping up and down on the Reset Button.

I see your point when it comes to Janeway's way of relaxing from command with some holonovel. But wasting whole episodes on it?

Some of it was OK, like The Doctor's Viking adventure in which was a episode I strongly disliked at first but which I started to like more and more after watching it a few times. As for The Doctor, I really liked Projections, OK not a holo fantasy as such but a result of a malfunctioning holodeck.

As for Janeway, it would have been more interesting to see where the holonovel with the creepy Lord Burleigh and his "dead" wife who he obviously had locked in and in chains on the fourth floor would have lead.

As for Once Upon A Time, due to my twisted humor, Flotter has become my "anti-hero" in the seasons 4-7 of Voyager. Well, you have to have someone on the No:1 spot and if you can't go for a good reaction, go for a bad one by chosing a totally unimportant "guest character" and make that one your favorite.

I've actually thought of some story where a holodec malfunction leads to The Doctor and Flotter changoing place with Flotter in command of sickby and at the end is saving the ship.

And as a fan of CSI, I can't watch the series without shouting "Flotter!" every time the character David Hodges (played by Wallace Langham) shows up!

Oh, right... "Barge of the Dead", right?

Ok, I know. I've milked that joke for all it's worth. Moving on...

Honestly, I wasn't too fond of Barge Of The Dead either.

And easy to manage, really... given that the Ocampa seem to spend most of their nine years as basically young adults, then hyper-age at the end. Surely that final sequence could be slowed or delayed. Maybe the Doc develops a hyper-metabolic stabilizer, or a rapid-onset geriatric decelerant, or something else equally technobabbly.

Kes's abbreviated lifespan was a premise, and there's nothing wrong with changing a premise as long as you respect your audience's intelligence by generating an explanation. If Voyager had just stuck in a few lines of dialogue about a new industrial replicator or trading for photonic cores on Planet Weaselwood, the 95 torpedoes they fired would not have bothered me at all. Same with Kes's lifespan.

I suppose that my "quick fix" with Q giving Kes a human lifespan might not qualify for the most well-thought explanation when it comes to altering Kes's lifespan.

But if Berman and his gang could dismiss Kes with that silly energy-being mumbo-jumbo in The Gift, then I could come up with a similar "quick fix" to restore her and more. Not to mention that I happen to like Q!

Not to mention that it was even easier to dismiss the crap in that episode when I had to rewrite my Kes come-back story later on.

Anyway, I admit that my attempt could have been done better.

As for trading for photonic cores, didn't Voyager try that with the Ekorrii on planet Kurrus when they negotiated with King Söör? However, they didn't have any success then so I guess they decided to rely on The Shuttle And Torpedo Building Team instead.

JANEWAY: We would really like to buy those electronic whatsoevertechnobabbling components for our warp engines. No, forget that, we want to buy photonic cores!
KING SÖÖR: Now what can you offer us in exchange? Do you have Hlaka nuts?
JANEWAY: (to Neelix) What is Hlaka nuts?
NEELIX: It's a big nut, the size of a human head. The Ekorrii love them. Unfortunately, they grow on a planet in Kazon-Ogla space and I would suggest that we don't go there.
JANEWAY: I'm sorry King Söör but we don't have Hlaka nuts. But we can offer you other foodstuff from our Hydroponic Bay, like Leola Roots, Wood Throk, Seltin Wood Fungus, Phu and....
KING SÖÖR: Unacceptable! We want Hlaka nuts!
JANEWAY: Maybe your people would like to have some of the Federations best literature. I'm sure they would enjoy..........
KING SÖÖR: Nooooooo! We want Hlaka nuts! Bring us Hlaka nuts or we eat you instead!
NEELIX: Captain, I would strongly suggest that we beam up immediately and take our chances with the Kazon-Ogla instead!

 

[at Quark's]

What was so bad about Real Life, though?

Yes, it was a holodeck show, but one in which the Doctor learns a few very hard, but valuable, lessons. That's character development. I thought it was time well spent, more so than many episodes where just the Baddie of the Week (one we never get to see again anyway) gets defeated.

 

[Oddish]

But if Berman and his gang could dismiss Kes with that silly energy-being mumbo-jumbo in The Gift, then I could come up with a similar "quick fix" to restore her and more. Not to mention that I happen to like Q.

Read Ending #10. I wrote it in honor of you. https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/im-crazy-for-q-a-story-in-eleven-endings.311180/

What was so bad about Real Life, though?

Yes, it was a holodeck show, but one in which the Doctor learns a few very hard, but valuable, lessons.

If he had APPLIED those lessons in later episodes, "Real Life" would have been a perfectly acceptable episode. If we had seen him come to terms with Jeffrey's Klingon pals, and his wife's career, and continued the journey that he began with the loss of Belle ()... but the Big Red Reset Button ended that.

 

[at Quark's]

If he had APPLIED those lessons in later episodes, "Real Life" would have been a perfectly acceptable episode. If we had seen him come to terms with Jeffrey's Klingon pals, and his wife's career, and continued the journey that he began with the loss of Belle ()... but the Big Red Reset Button ended that.

True, but that's not a shortcoming of the episode itself but rather of the series as a whole. The episode itself would have only been to blame if they abused and exploited that fact ('we can do anything to him, it's all forgotten by the next ep anyway').

 

[Lynx]

What was so bad about Real Life, though?

Yes, it was a holodeck show, but one in which the Doctor learns a few very hard, but valuable, lessons. That's character development. I thought it was time well spent, more so than many episodes where just the Baddie of the Week (one we never get to see again anyway) gets defeated.

My problems with Real Life is that the story itself had nothing to do with Voyager's journey home and it was about a hologram creating a holographic family and the whole thing turns into a holographic tragedy about death and loss which could have been avoided with a re-start of the program.

I mean, here we have a holographic doctor who is actually created to be a doctor and nothing more.

OK, as Kes stated he had the ability to learn, adapt and develope. Which was good actually!
Obviously he wanted to learn more about human life and such, nothing wrong with that.

But didn't he take his experiments too far?

I mean, in Heroes And Demons he falls in love with the female Viking warrior. But she gets killed in the holographic program.

The Doctor takes this so hard that he stops using the name Schweitzer and I can't understand why. I mean, he could have restarted tjhe program and saved Freya. Or he could have asked Kim to come up with a special version of the program in which he marries Freya and they live a happy life, a program with a place where The Doctor could go during his free time off the sickbay.

The same with that family in Still Life (Nightmaaaaaares!) , oooops sorry, Real Life. He could simply have re-edited the program so that Belle would be alive again. I would have done exactly that, both when it comes to Freya and the Real Life family if I had access to a holodec.

Instead we have two episodes where the poor, old Doc is actually only torturing himself.
And all that time could have been used for better stories, even if Heroes And Demons actually was a rather good episode.

 

[Lynx]

Read Ending #10. I wrote it in honor of you. https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/im-crazy-for-q-a-story-in-eleven-endings.311180/

In honor of me!
Honestly, I feel honored!

I must also congratulate you for habing the ability for coming up with a dozen or so scenarios where everyone of those was better than Endgame.

Of course I like the Kes scenario the best!

 

[Oddish]

Of course I like the Kes scenario the best!

Of course.

If you factor in the alternative to "Endgame" I put in another topic, where Voyager (after several episodes of buildup) finally gets the quantum slipstream drive operational and has a knockdown drag-out running fight with the Borg before finally leaving them in the dust and slip streaming home, then spends a whole episode on what comes afterward, then my calculation is that it's an even dozen.

 

[fireproof78]

Honestly, I wasn't too fond of Barge Of The Dead either.

I love Barge of the Dead.

What was so bad about Real Life, though?

Yes, it was a holodeck show, but one in which the Doctor learns a few very hard, but valuable, lessons. That's character development. I thought it was time well spent, more so than many episodes where just the Baddie of the Week (one we never get to see again anyway) gets defeated.

But it never matters. We don't see it impact the Doctor's character going forward in any meaningful way. He doesn't treat the holodeck any differently, or demonstrated a differently level of empathy for the crew because of it.

As much as I appreciate the lesson, and agree with it in part, I also feel like it was not very well handled. It lacked any staying power.

 

[Farscape One]

My problems with Real Life is that the story itself had nothing to do with Voyager's journey home and it was about a hologram creating a holographic family and the whole thing turns into a holographic tragedy about death and loss which could have been avoided with a re-start of the program.

I mean, here we have a holographic doctor who is actually created to be a doctor and nothing more.

OK, as Kes stated he had the ability to learn, adapt and develope. Which was good actually!
Obviously he wanted to learn more about human life and such, nothing wrong with that.

But didn't he take his experiments too far?

I mean, in Heroes And Demons he falls in love with the female Viking warrior. But she gets killed in the holographic program.

The Doctor takes this so hard that he stops using the name Schweitzer and I can't understand why. I mean, he could have restarted tjhe program and saved Freya. Or he could have asked Kim to come up with a special version of the program in which he marries Freya and they live a happy life, a program with a place where The Doctor could go during his free time off the sickbay.

The same with that family in Still Life (Nightmaaaaaares!) , oooops sorry, Real Life. He could simply have re-edited the program so that Belle would be alive again. I would have done exactly that, both when it comes to Freya and the Real Life family if I had access to a holodec.

Instead we have two episodes where the poor, old Doc is actually only torturing himself.
And all that time could have been used for better stories, even if Heroes And Demons actually was a rather good episode.

But not editing the program so Belle would simply be alive was the point of "REAL LIFE". The real world doesn't have the option to just erase a mistake and redo or use a few commands and bring someone back from death.

Tom's conversation with him at the end was spot on, and one of his biggest showcases in terms of how far he has come from the pilot.

 

[Farscape One]

I love Barge of the Dead.

But it never matters. We don't see it impact the Doctor's character going forward in any meaningful way. He doesn't treat the holodeck any differently, or demonstrated a differently level of empathy for the crew because of it.

As much as I appreciate the lesson, and agree with it in part, I also feel like it was not very well handled. It lacked any staying power.

I fault the show itself more than the episode for The Doctor not learnimg the lessons and applying them later.

VOYAGER smashed the reset button harder than even TNG. (That in itself is a feat.)

 

[fireproof78]

I fault the show itself more than the episode for The Doctor not learnimg the lessons and applying them later.

VOYAGER smashed the reset button harder than even TNG. (That in itself is a feat.)

I mean, yes and no. Even if there was not acknowledgement, one would hope that it would impact the character's performance or attitude or something. It loses something in the rewatch when you go, "OK, and?" And there's no "and" there to be had.

Voyager was bad about this, but it was made worse by episodes like this.

 

[XCV330]

I mean, yes and no. Even if there was not acknowledgement, one would hope that it would impact the character's performance or attitude or something. It loses something in the rewatch when you go, "OK, and?" And there's no "and" there to be had.

Voyager was bad about this, but it was made worse by episodes like this.

As much as I think Voyager-with-consequences would have been a better show, it could have also gone far too dark, a Stargate Universe equivalent of Star Trek and lasting about as long. I'm not sure they had the ability to be that subtle.

 

[Farscape One]

Also, tv in general at that time wasn't ready for a darker tone like BSG and SGU.

9/11 essentially prepped the audience for those shows.