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Spoilers Is Picard season 2 a failure?

The "it was always meant to happen" ending doesn't really sit well with me. How does that work with the "Now he hasn't met Guinan in the past because his timeline never existed" approach? My head hurts. ;)

I mean, they were obviously lying about that to cover up the ending.
 
Anyway, whether or not anyone cares, I'm going to throw out some thoughts Good vs. Bad:

Good

1. The Time Travel Plot Holds Up: People were debating left and right this but the fact that Picard says he grew up with the bullet holes in the chateau means that this was always meant to happen. Q is omniscient so choosing a convoluted way to bring about all these events makes sense and avoids ant plot holes because Q knows how it will turn out because he's seen it already. He may not understand why it happened the way it did but he knows how it happened.

Even the Confederacy being a "bubble" timeline works because we've seen these things exist for a brief moment like when Daniels took Archer out of time and fucked over the Federation.

2. The zany plotlines are the best part of the season: The Borg Queen singing Pat Benetar, the punk being afraid of people on the bus, the Battlestar Galactica homages, Seven's insane driving, and other craziness is the best part of the show. I wish they'd actually played up the comedic elements more than downplayed them.

3. Doctor Soong, Bond villain: I have to say I enjoyed when they finally made him as the embodiment of Silicon Valley big tech money. He can buy his way into a space mission, is so arrogant that he clones himself as a daughter, and is able to acquire military drones. He's the guy who will make a fascist future and given Peter Thiel's actions, I 100% buy it.

4. Will Wheaton Return: [Expletive] anyone who is against this. I was grinning ear to ear.

5. Borg Redemption: They did the same thing in Star Trek: Destiny and I really enjoyed the fact that being a hostile parasitical lifeform that everyone in the rest of the galaxy hates is actually a poor survival strategy. Having Jurati point this is out is strange versus Seven doing it but I also like that Jurati is actually intrigued by the collective's transhumanism in a way that our ex-Borg would never be.

The Middling

1. Picard's Secret Pain: Patrick Stewart used his own abusive father and his PTSD to make this storyline but I frankly don't think it really is all that interesting. There's some good moments like the homage to "Where No Man Has Gone Before" but it's not like Picard didn't already have trauma like the Borg, the death of Jack Crusher, the Stargazer being lost, and being stabbed in the heart. I actually kind of wish they'd stuck with Maurice Picard being abusive because that would at least fit with how Robert and Jean Luc never have anything good to say about the man.

2. Overwritten plotline: There's probably 3-4 too many moving parts in this story. It comes together at the end but they could have removed some of the story elements and probably had more time to develop things like Rios and his past girl or Jurati and Seven. Maybe even kept some of the characters in the story.

3. The Borg Queen: Aside from having her sing, the Borg Queen was a mixed bag. She has always been a bit like Davros in Doctor Who. They're fine characters in their own right but actually reduce the menace of their factions as a whole. The Daleks are always more terrifying and more interesting on their own than when they are personalized by Davros. Ditto the Borg and the Borg Queen. The Borg Queen is great but basically being a sexy cyborg vampire is not something that fits with the implacable embodiments of conformity.

4. Underuse of Q: We could have had a couple of more conversations between Q and Picard, Q and Guinan, or Q and anyone else.

5. Young Guinan: Ito Aghayere did a fine job but Whoopi Goldberg is Guinan and if you're going to use her, you should have used her throughout. It's an easy fix too, just say, "My race goes through cycles of old age and regeneration." They also dug themselves a hole by removing Time's Arrow and should have just addressed it.

The Bad

1. Writing out the cast: Rios, Elnor, Jurati, and more won't be returning. Which ticks me the heck off because I consider Picard's cast to be the most likable scifi cast since Firefly. I was hoping we'd see them as Seven's Nine or whatever sequel series they did. This is targ crap and I don't care about TNG's cast returning in large part because of this.

2. Q in a bottle: I have no idea why this was even a plot point.

3. Not addressing World War 3: This ties into 1# but Rios leaving the 25th century for the 24th for a girl he barely met like a Doctor Who companion (I'm looking at you, Leeta and Jo Grant), is pretty bad but so near to the end of civilization without commentary needed to be addressed. Maybe a simple, "I'm staying so they don't get killed. When the bombs drop, I'm going to be in Outer mongologia" would have helped.

4. Not addressing Q's dying: A simple, "I don't know why I'm dying" would be better than leaving me wondering. This is a show built on nostalgia and since Q's dying has been the plot of several episodes, it's not something to just handwave.

5. All the damn dropped plot threads from Season 1: What happened to Narek? Admiral Oh? Is the Romulan Empire and Federation's relationship affected by the fact that 9/11 really was a false flag operation in this world? This ties into the fact that Isa Briones was criminally underused this season and like Elnor could have been included in the past. Drop the Kore part and maybe have Soji meet her origins in a Master Race nutjob who is the father of all androids.

Screw it, Soji and Elnor hook up. That would be a very pretty couple.
 
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Yes and I suspect fans would then ask why they aren't trying to fix it.
They know fans are far more upset about the angle of the Enterprise's nacelle pylons changing in SNW than they are about not knowing why Q was dying.

The why and how was irrelevant to the plot. The shows have depicted them as more mortal than they like to admit.
 
In thinking about it, I think there's one truly glaring flaw to S2, and that's the absence of Soji. Season One is structured such that Soji is essentially the co-lead character. In a very real sense, the first season is about Soji and Jean-Luc's relationship, about how they build trust and establish this ersatz grandfather/granddaughter relationship. The climax of the season comes when Jean-Luc makes his breakthrough to Soji and she agrees to put connecting with him above her feelings of fear and anger -- "What's why we're here: To save each other." The climax of the season one epilogue comes when Isa Briones herself sings "Blue Skies" to Data as he is finally laid to rest. The end of S1 is a promissory note that the relationship between her and Jean-Luc would be the basis of the show going forward. Not having Soji right there at Jean-Luc's side when he's sent back in time is just a profound mistake after S1 invested so much time and energy into their relationship, and I it severely harms the show.
 
In thinking about it, I think there's one truly glaring flaw to S2, and that's the absence of Soji. Season One is structured such that Soji is essentially the co-lead character. In a very real sense, the first season is about Soji and Jean-Luc's relationship, about how they build trust and establish this ersatz grandfather/granddaughter relationship.

The climax of the season comes when Jean-Luc makes his breakthrough to Soji and she agrees to put connecting with him above her feelings of fear and anger -- "What's why we're here: To save each other." The climax of the season one epilogue comes when Isa Briones herself sings "Blue Skies" to Data as he is finally laid to rest. The end of S1 is a promissory note that the relationship between her and Jean-Luc would be the basis of the show going forward. Not having Soji right there at Jean-Luc's side when he's sent back in time is just a profound mistake after S1 invested so much time and energy into their relationship, and I it severely harms the show.

I feel like breaking the band up was a mistake as a whole:

Elnor in LA: Having a Romulan ninja wandering around LA could have been a wonderful fish out of water story where he beats up baddies, surfs, and maybe even removes his hat to reveal elf ears and people just react with, "Cool mod, man! Lord of the Rings!"

Soji in LA: Soji getting to meet Adam Soong to get the origins of the Soong androids and finding instead a man who is quite possibly insane. Perhaps getting a reflection that the quest for transhumanism isn't necessarily rooted in betting oneself.
 
One thing is for sure, the timeline that leads to the Federation is super fragile in 2024.

The micro-organism creates Ozone?

Without it Soong creates Ultraviolet shields that also work well against ICBMs.

No WWIII.

No Dark Age.

Humans invent Warp earlier, then defeat the entire universe.
 
I feel like breaking the band up was a mistake as a whole:

Elnor in LA: Having a Romulan ninja wandering around LA could have been a wonderful fish out of water story where he beats up baddies, surfs, and maybe even removes his hat to reveal elf ears and people just react with, "Cool mod, man! Lord of the Rings!"

Soji in LA: Soji getting to meet Adam Soong to get the origins of the Soong androids and finding instead a man who is quite possibly insane. Perhaps getting a reflection that the quest for transhumanism isn't necessarily rooted in betting oneself.

There was a chance for more ST4 homages with Elnor too. With him, you get the same issues as Spock (can't lie worth a darn), with additional complications (thinks decapitation is acceptable conflict resolution).
 
The micro-organism creates Ozone?

Without it Soong creates Ultraviolet shields that also work well against ICBMs.

No WWIII.

No Dark Age.

Humans invent Warp earlier, then defeat the entire universe.

I mean, they're already falling apart if Vulcan is not under control.
 
In thinking about it, I think there's one truly glaring flaw to S2, and that's the absence of Soji. Season One is structured such that Soji is essentially the co-lead character. In a very real sense, the first season is about Soji and Jean-Luc's relationship, about how they build trust and establish this ersatz grandfather/granddaughter relationship. The climax of the season comes when Jean-Luc makes his breakthrough to Soji and she agrees to put connecting with him above her feelings of fear and anger -- "What's why we're here: To save each other." The climax of the season one epilogue comes when Isa Briones herself sings "Blue Skies" to Data as he is finally laid to rest. The end of S1 is a promissory note that the relationship between her and Jean-Luc would be the basis of the show going forward. Not having Soji right there at Jean-Luc's side when he's sent back in time is just a profound mistake after S1 invested so much time and energy into their relationship, and I it severely harms the show.
I don't mind Kore, but I agree that dropping Soji hurt the series. They did make it look like she was the co-star in Season 1. Not that I know what they could've done with her in Season 2.

In a way, I wish Picard wasn't a limited-run series. They've written out most of the characters, heading into Season 3, and they wouldn't have if the show was running indefinitely like Discovery.

If Picard Season 3 is the belated TNG Movie I suspect it's going to be, I'd prefer it had been either a mini-series of its own or a Paramount+ Original Movie between seasons. Sort of like TNG's own version of El Camino.
 
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I don't mind Kore, but I agree that dropping Soji hurt the series. They did make it look like she was the co-star in Season 1. Not that I know what they could've done with her in Season 2.

To me, the most immediate answer is that Soji could have taken most of the role that Tallinn played. She could have been the primary cast member Jean-Luc was siloed off with, and she could have been the one to journey into his mind and help him through coping with his mother's suicide. Tallinn could still have been in the series in a less-central role that would have been more appropriate to how little we learn about her as a person -- she could still have been the one to sacrifice herself for Renee, for instance.
 
For me:

Top tier: TOS, TNG, DS9
Middle tier: VOY, ENT, LD
Bottom tier: DISCO, PIC, TAS

Not enough info to rate PRO ir SNW yet, but PRO seems at keast middle tier and SNW as well.

The serialized shows have had some great moments, but too many huge plotholes/logical incoherence instances for me to really like them. Though I will say the finales were both better this year. But generally, I prefer episodic storytelling (with serialized character arcs).

You never get a sense of completion/satisfaction after the episode with serialized. Or, very rarely, outside the finale.

100% agree with this. Shows like DS9 and FARSCAPE did it MUCH MUCH better. The seasons were peppered with episodes that had nothings to do with the main Arc which was weaved through the seasons. Same with shows BTVS and ANGEL. Yeah it's still advised to watch those shows in order but they all had great episodic shows thrown in.

Today. Some shows do it very well...Lost in Space comes to mind or Walking Dead. Some very very badly...Picard and Discovery.
 
There were some good ideas in season two, but the storyline would have been better served if it were competed in five episodes rather than ten. Far too much filler.
 
In the end, I think a lot of the issue with Picard Season 2 is it was neither character-based writing or plot based writing - it was actor-based writing.

What I mean is the season seems like it was mostly constructed in an effort to come up with things for the cast to do. As an example:
  • Fans want more Orla Brady! But she's not going back in time with them, and we want to have her in more than the first/last episode. What do we do? Oh, let's create another character who looks exactly like her. Let's make her a Watcher, and then not really do anything interesting with it.
  • Evan Evagora is a shite actor, so let's sideline him most of the season. Oh, but he still needs to get paid for most of the episodes, so let's have Raffi hallucinate him, a pointless flashback, and a holo-Elnor so he still appears in most of the season.
  • Isa Briones is part of the main cast, but Soji won't be going back in time. Let's create a new character who looks exactly like her, and give her the exact same character arc where she discovers her entire life is a fraud. And let's make a Soong her dad, just to give Brent Spiner something to do.
  • The plot of the season has no real need for Raffi and Seven, so let's just have them bicker most of the season to give the actors a reason to collect a paycheck.
  • Santiago Cabrera is great as Rios, but we don't have that much for him to do, so let's have a sort of romantic comedy sideplot that he's mostly hived off in.
Ultimately, no one was really needed for this season from the main cast other than Patrick Stewart and Alison Pill. Even in those cases the character arcs were kinda weird flexes which didn't totally jibe with what we saw before, but they were at least workable.
 
To me, the most immediate answer is that Soji could have taken most of the role that Tallinn played. She could have been the primary cast member Jean-Luc was siloed off with, and she could have been the one to journey into his mind and help him through coping with his mother's suicide. Tallinn could still have been in the series in a less-central role that would have been more appropriate to how little we learn about her as a person -- she could still have been the one to sacrifice herself for Renee, for instance.
I don't know. Soji the equivalent of a 20-year-old. I don't know how much I buy someone who's effectively 20 guiding someone who's pushing 100. I think the guide had to be someone who looks like they've lived life and has some wisdom and more maturity. Tallinn fits that role a lot better than Soji.
 
In the end, I think a lot of the issue with Picard Season 2 is it was neither character-based writing or plot based writing - it was actor-based writing.

What I mean is the season seems like it was mostly constructed in an effort to come up with things for the cast to do. As an example:
  • Fans want more Orla Brady! But she's not going back in time with them, and we want to have her in more than the first/last episode. What do we do? Oh, let's create another character who looks exactly like her. Let's make her a Watcher, and then not really do anything interesting with it.
  • Evan Evagora is a shite actor, so let's sideline him most of the season. Oh, but he still needs to get paid for most of the episodes, so let's have Raffi hallucinate him, a pointless flashback, and a holo-Elnor so he still appears in most of the season.
  • Isa Briones is part of the main cast, but Soji won't be going back in time. Let's create a new character who looks exactly like her, and give her the exact same character arc where she discovers her entire life is a fraud. And let's make a Soong her dad, just to give Brent Spiner something to do.
  • The plot of the season has no real need for Raffi and Seven, so let's just have them bicker most of the season to give the actors a reason to collect a paycheck.
  • Santiago Cabrera is great as Rios, but we don't have that much for him to do, so let's have a sort of romantic comedy sideplot that he's mostly hived off in.
Ultimately, no one was really needed for this season from the main cast other than Patrick Stewart and Alison Pill. Even in those cases the character arcs were kinda weird flexes which didn't totally jibe with what we saw before, but they were at least workable.
This a way to look at PIC Season 2 that I hadn't thought of, because I've never had to before with other seasons. But it works to look at the season this way the more I think about it. The cast stays the same, they just either play different characters or they have the same characters fill different roles. You can even include Brent Spiner who plays Just Another Soong. This time it's Adam.

I think they only had one season's worth of plot for the characters from Season 1, and then turned a one-season show into a three-season show. They gave these actors their big hurrah for Season 2 and now they're bringing back the TNG Cast for Season 3. It's how they were able to shoot two seasons back-to-back. Most of the actors wouldn't be needed for both seasons, so they had their schedules free enough to do whatever else they were doing besides Picard. And they get everything in they need to with Patrick Stewart so they don't have worry about anything happening to him due to Old Age.

It's the opposite approach they took with Discovery where, over there, each season was going to have a different cast in a different time-frame, until they settled on one cast, then they had to rework Discovery so they could get multiple seasons out of these characters instead of just the one that Bryan Fuller originally imagined.
 
100% agree with this. Shows like DS9 and FARSCAPE did it MUCH MUCH better. The seasons were peppered with episodes that had nothings to do with the main Arc which was weaved through the seasons. Same with shows BTVS and ANGEL. Yeah it's still advised to watch those shows in order but they all had great episodic shows thrown in.

Today. Some shows do it very well...Lost in Space comes to mind or Walking Dead. Some very very badly...Picard and Discovery.

Picard did it pretty well in its opening season as did Discovery in its underrated S4, even if S2 of PIC was serialisation taken too far with characters and audiences going round in circles, trapped in boring 2020s Los Angeles - also DSCO has many episodes that would work well as more self-contained stories, with S1 and S2 on hindsight split into two or three mini-arcs.

And we had self-contained stories and mini-arcs with Soji, Seven, and the Rikers in the now more warmly Season 1.
 
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