Spoilers Is Picard season 2 a failure?

[Mogh]

Well, wading in-between the irreconcilable camps of "worst thing I ever saw" and "by Q, isn't this trauma and resolution thing wonderful?" one more time (I doubt any of us will convince the others).

Is it a failure?
Naturally depends on how we define it.

Commercials and numbers are hard to pin down in the streaming era. Whether or not Paramount/CBS/whoever considers it a return on investment is hard to say. But I don't think that's really how Trek fans have ever defined success or failure (let's face it, TOS wasn't considered a success at the time: that took several more years of reruns).

We could go by critical response. Google for the reviews of the last episode, and it isn't pretty. IMDB holds some pretty low ratings for the season, certainly compared to other Trek shows. Rotten Tomatoes has a pretty bad audience score. I'm sure hardened defenders will claim some sort of mass skewing of the data by "haters" but that doesn't seem to affect other genre shows with equally devoted fanbases (The Mandalorian seems to have done just fine). Not to mention that even were that skewing true then, well, not a great sign that you've got enough people quite so rabidly mad.

But perhaps the best barometer of failure or success, even moreso than audience reaction (which seems far more negative than even Enterprise, which was just getting a solid 'meh, boring') in its darkest hours is this: TOS is being talked about almost 60 years later, TNG 30 years later, and even DS9 and Voyager have their followings and newer fans. Will anybody be watching it in ten years? Will it be inspiring fans, fiction, conventions, people endlessly rewatching as they have the others?

A question we'll only know the answer to in time. But I'd bet any money that it's a solid no.

 

[ananta]

But perhaps the best barometer of failure or success, even moreso than audience reaction (which seems far more negative than even Enterprise, which was just getting a solid 'meh, boring') in its darkest hours is this: TOS is being talked about almost 60 years later, TNG 30 years later, and even DS9 and Voyager have their followings and newer fans. Will anybody be watching it in ten years? Will it be inspiring fans, fiction, conventions, people endlessly rewatching as they have the others?

A question we'll only know the answer to in time. But I'd bet any money that it's a solid no.

It’s Star Trek—of course people will still be watching it and talking about it in ten years time. And fan opinion will almost definitely have softened, as it invariably does. Heck, an increasing number of fans now see Enterprise and Voyager as top tier Trek nowadays, whereas back in the day pretty much all you saw online was criticism and bile (I wasn’t a fan of either and still am not but I’m happy others enjoy these shows). If people go soft on the weakest of the Berman era, they’ll definitely look back fondly on Picard—a show that has had its failings, but even at its worst was consistently entertaining.

 

[fireproof78]

Will anybody be watching it in ten years? Will it be inspiring fans, fiction, conventions, people endlessly rewatching as they have the others?

Given the positive reaction to people who highly identify with what Picard was going through I am going to say yes!

I still talk about Trek 09, and the inspiration I draw from it. Others find inspiration in many different places and I don't see Picard going away just because the immediately reaction was anger and disappointment from some fans.

Pretty sure TNG had that too.

 

[TedShatner10]

Picard fails as a full TV show but its seasons excel as stealth TNG films executed in the manner of the Kelvin movies - if S1 was essentially fun but rather nonsensical in places like the '09 movie, then S2 felt like Into Darkness (a slighty drab retread of better older material and imprisoned too much by fan service).

Let's hope S3 will be more in the vein of Beyond.

 

[Charles Phipps]

But perhaps the best barometer of failure or success, even moreso than audience reaction (which seems far more negative than even Enterprise, which was just getting a solid 'meh, boring') in its darkest hours is this: TOS is being talked about almost 60 years later, TNG 30 years later, and even DS9 and Voyager have their followings and newer fans. Will anybody be watching it in ten years? Will it be inspiring fans, fiction, conventions, people endlessly rewatching as they have the others?

A question we'll only know the answer to in time. But I'd bet any money that it's a solid no.

We're discussing and watching DISCOVERY five years later. It's also still on the air and is on television in international markets with books, entire sections devoted to it on Star Trek online, and audio dramas.

So, I would take that bet.

I've also rewatched Picard 4 times and I watched TNG when I was seven.

Will people still be watching NuTrek in 10 years? ABSOLUTELY. It will also absolutely still be on the air both in streaming, being made, and in continuity. Will people be talking about it? Yes.

Why?

Because we're still talking and invested in it NOW.

 

[donners22]

I wonder how people who watched "Where No One Has Gone Before" felt as their first introduction to TOS and then went in to Corbomite maneuver?" Was there a diminishing of expectations because certain characters didn't return?

This is a thing for me that I don't fully grasp. I invest in characters whether it is one episode or one season so I never see them as wasted in the story told. Picard Season 1 ended naturally enough and Season 2 appears to have a wrap up. So it seems a proper place to kick off to the next adventure, yes?

Or am I misreading the reaction?

I can't speak for what is motivating the reaction of others, but for my part I:
1) Found Jurati and Rios enjoyable, and considered their respective actors very talented.
2) Wanted to see more of those characters, both in seeing them develop and simply getting more moments from them.
3) Found their respective endings entirely unsatisfying.
4) Do not give a stuff about the remainder of the TNG characters, don't rate the actors, and consider that they've well and truly had their time in the sun. The notion of them replacing the established Picard characters/actors is a step down in my view, and makes me unenthused for S3.

 

[fireproof78]

I can't speak for what is motivating the reaction of others, but for my part I:
1) Found Jurati and Rios enjoyable, and considered their respective actors very talented.
2) Wanted to see more of those characters, both in seeing them develop and simply getting more moments from them.
3) Found their respective endings entirely unsatisfying.
4) Do not give a stuff about the remainder of the TNG characters, don't rate the actors, and consider that they've well and truly had their time in the sun. The notion of them replacing the established Picard characters/actors is a step down in my view, and makes me unenthused for S3.

Thank you for sharing.

I imagine that the reactions to Season 3 will be quite mixed.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Nope. Loved it. Some of the character interactions were magic!

 

[Sci]

Having finally seen 2x10 "Farewell," I gotta say that I think PIC S2 is a success and probably one of my favorite seasons of ST.

 

[Argosy]

I found that to be a really frustrating watch. I think I’m annoyed because there were some really intimate character explorations and on occasion some great dialogue, but it was padded out with huge swathes of meandering storylines. They probably could have folded this material into 5 or 6 episodes and it would have been all the better for it.

I echo the pacing and execution sentiments mentioned numerous times in this thread. It’s easy to introduce ideas, but it’s harder to follow them up and even in the last episode they were devoting time to new ideas at the expense of core concepts which hadn’t been explored enough as it was.

It’s like someone bringing you all your favourite meals at once, popping them in a blender and saying - ‘Hey, why don’t you chug that bad boy down in one’.

Ah well, there’s plenty of new Trek which I do like, so I’ll shrug this off, it’s just TV after all. I do admit though, having grown up with the TNG era I’m a little sad that this season has served to really dampen any excitement I might have had for season 3.

Well, to wash that bad taste out of my mouth I might watch the ’Book of Boba Fett’ this weekend. I hear that’s really good... ;P

 

[dupersuper]

I consider season 1 a failure.

Season 2 was fine.

I wish we learned why Q was...in the state he was.

 

[Andyliini]

Considering I found season 2 intriguing to watch, especially the first episode and finale. Because of that success, I think the Picard Season 2 is my favorite singluar season of Trek ever. If it can do that, there's no way it can be a failure.

 

[Eddie Roth]

Picard fails as a full TV show but its seasons excel as stealth TNG films executed in the manner of the Kelvin movies - if S1 was essentially fun but rather nonsensical in places like the '09 movie, then S2 felt like Into Darkness (a slighty drab retread of better older material and imprisoned too much by fan service).

Let's hope S3 will be more in the vein of Beyond.

That's an interesting thought. I've also felt that these are sorta-TNG-movies in an expanded format (too expanded in certain aspects). Although I would argue that S2 was more "nonsensical" than S1. Then again, as I've said before, upon a second viewing my judgment of S1 improved dramatically from a "huh?" to a solid "This is the most meaningful season of Star Trek in this century so far". Who knows how S2 will play once you know where it's going?

 

[TedShatner10]

That's an interesting thought. I've also felt that these are sorta-TNG-movies in an expanded format (too expanded in certain aspects). Although I would argue that S2 was more "nonsensical" than S1. Then again, as I've said before, upon a second viewing my judgment of S1 improved dramatically from a "huh?" to a solid "This is the most meaningful season of Star Trek in this century so far". Who knows how S2 will play once you know where it's going?

S2 makes more sense if we concentrate on the Europa Mission and future Borg encounter as a destination, but the critics of this current season seem put off by S2's hideous padding in places (like being arrested by ICE, etc) and entangled over decades established Trek lore when we pry into Picard's childhood tragedy.

 

[Eddie Roth]

S2 makes more sense if we concentrate on the Europa Mission and future Borg encounter as a destination, but the critics of this current season seem put off by S2's hideous padding in places (like being arrested by ICE, etc) and entangled over decades established Trek lore when we pry into Picard's childhood tragedy.

Lots of padding, no doubt. That's been an unfortunate trend in Discovery as well: You have a plot that might make an okay two-hour movie or two-parter, but you drag it out for an entire season. At least with Picard, the padding was entertaining unlike the laughable young adult lit-style navel-gazing in DSC Season 4.

I'm not sure however what you mean by entanglements over lore with Picard's childhood. I felt they solved the "old maman" moment from "Where No One Has Gone Before" quite nicely. Other than that? Why wouldn't there be such a story in JL's past? If anything, one could ask critically whether there always needs to be some emo personal story behind every plot of galactic import. That too has been a trend since 2017. Klingon War? Burnham's coming of age. Red Angel? Oh hey mommy! The "Burn"? A sad baby cried.

 

[ED-209]

It’s like Hamlet compared to S1, now that was shite.

 

[Mogh]

It’s like Hamlet compared to S1, now that was shite.

Yeah, "Data the terminally suicidal Android: ready to die aged 43" didn't really work for me. Cracking scenes between Spiner and Stewart, but the premise felt wholly inauthentic (not to mention all the very non-24th century characters).

 

[ED-209]

That and it was just a bad story and way to dark.

 

[Brainsucker]

Failure? Nope. I love it.

 

[Lord Garth]

Well, wading in-between the irreconcilable camps of "worst thing I ever saw" and "by Q, isn't this trauma and resolution thing wonderful?" one more time (I doubt any of us will convince the others).

Is it a failure?
Naturally depends on how we define it.

Commercials and numbers are hard to pin down in the streaming era. Whether or not Paramount/CBS/whoever considers it a return on investment is hard to say. But I don't think that's really how Trek fans have ever defined success or failure (let's face it, TOS wasn't considered a success at the time: that took several more years of reruns).

We could go by critical response. Google for the reviews of the last episode, and it isn't pretty. IMDB holds some pretty low ratings for the season, certainly compared to other Trek shows. Rotten Tomatoes has a pretty bad audience score. I'm sure hardened defenders will claim some sort of mass skewing of the data by "haters" but that doesn't seem to affect other genre shows with equally devoted fanbases (The Mandalorian seems to have done just fine). Not to mention that even were that skewing true then, well, not a great sign that you've got enough people quite so rabidly mad.

But perhaps the best barometer of failure or success, even moreso than audience reaction (which seems far more negative than even Enterprise, which was just getting a solid 'meh, boring') in its darkest hours is this: TOS is being talked about almost 60 years later, TNG 30 years later, and even DS9 and Voyager have their followings and newer fans. Will anybody be watching it in ten years? Will it be inspiring fans, fiction, conventions, people endlessly rewatching as they have the others?

A question we'll only know the answer to in time. But I'd bet any money that it's a solid no.

I'm not a Star Wars fan and haven't seen any of it outside the movies, but I think The Mandalorian doesn't have a divided fanbase. Old-schoolers seem to love it, from what I see.

Old-schoolers on here tend to not like DSC and PIC, but they love SNW if they can let go of it not looking completely '60s. What does this tell me? Not that SNW is better or worse than DSC or PIC, just that it appeals to old people more.