Spoilers Is Picard season 2 a failure?

[Mogh]

Jean-Luc Picard is, from the moment we meet him, a messed-up dude. I've thought so for years. PIC S2 is the first time the canon is explaining why he's always been so messed up.

I find this a really interesting alternate perspective on him, but not one that rings true for me (though it's a fascinating interpretation).

Are you aware of anything in the writer's bible, script or even Stewart's performance where the actors or writers asserted that they were writing him as a messed-up individual? The insertion of "not liking children" or his reluctance with Beverly Crusher always seems to signal other things - I wonder if there's any writer or actor commentary on either to back up or refute this idea?

Hate to tell you this, but everyone has trauma of some sort or other. A realistic depiction of a brighter, more optimistic future is one in which people acknowledge this and take action to work on their issues and receive support for doing so -- not the ridiculous lie that there's a such thing as living without trauma.

Everyone encounters trauma. Not everyone is resultingly traumatised. Being traumatised isn't a good thing and is clearly better avoided if possible, but most of us aren't equipped to do that consistently. The idea that in 300 years time, people would have an infinitely better grasp of the human psyche and handle pain that much better is highly plausible, when you consider how much more enlightened we are over even say the last 50 years.

It would be a disappointment to suggest that humans of the future really weren't any better at dealing with things than we are now (see: an admiral who represses his memory for almost a century).

 

[Camren]

This is Star Trek.

Debatable. What this is, is lazy writers unable to tackle today's social injustices in a futuristic Star Trek setting. The future is too happy, the Federation is utopian, humans have evolved, there's no more racism, no crime, war, social inequality, lack of understanding of mental health etc. So how do we write about these things because we are sooo eager to highlight them? I know, let's just go back into the past, spend the entire damn season there highlighting these very issues and remind us how awful humans of the 21st century are. We surely can't be creative enough to come up with interesting and thought-provoking stories in the fictional, future world of Star Trek, can we? Let's leave that to the previous Star Trek series.

 

[Mogh]

Debatable. What this is, is lazy writers unable to tackle today's social injustices in a futuristic Star Trek setting. The future is too happy, the Federation is utopian, humans have evolved, there's no more racism, no crime, war, social inequality, lack of understanding of mental health etc. So how do we write about these things because we are sooo eager to highlight them? I know, let's just go back into the past, spend the entire damn season there highlighting these very issues and remind us how awful humans of the 21st century are. We surely can't be creative enough to come up with interesting and thought-provoking stories in the fictional, future world of Star Trek, can we? Let's leave that to the previous Star Trek series.

Bingo.

 

[Timofnine]

Maybe they can stick episode 1 of this season with episode 10 edited together in to a special edition movie release DVD? Like when they released the two part TNG episodes as TNG movies on VHS? The middle 8 episodes can be optional viewing? We will have to see what the season finale brings though, and I guess that there are too many loose ends from the middle 8 episodes for this to work in principle. It would have been clever writing which could have satisfied some viewers.

 

[Mogh]

Maybe they can stick episode 1 of this season with episode 10 edited together in to a special edition movie release DVD? Like when they released the two part TNG episodes as TNG movies on VHS? The middle 8 episodes can be optional viewing? We will have to see what the season finale brings though, and I guess that there are too many loose ends from the middle 8 episodes for this to work in principle. It would have been clever writing which could have satisfied some viewers.

Amen. I LOVED the first episode of this season. It was a thrilling hour of TV that looked as though they'd learned from the mistakes of the first season and were going to show us what we wanted to see: a deep mystery to be solved by diplomacy and thinking in the true TNG style, appearances by the Borg and Q, a return to Starfleet in the mix, our characters actually behaving as 24th century humans.

The second episode was a fun romp, if nothing else (though we've seen this sort of thing a few times before).

Everything since then has fallen back to asinine plots: if only you'd just TALK, not only would FBI agents give up their careers but the Borg Queen would stop assimilating; everyone has a mental health issue as a primary plotline; Rios shows utter disregard for causality; a good chunk of the season (as I expressed concern to a friend before it aired) is given over to them coming back in time to tell us what utter shits we are; etc etc.

I was over the moon when they said Picard was coming back. But if they'd said 'hey, shall we resurrect Star Trek? Plotlines to include: the Borg Queen belting out Pat Benatar hits at a ball; the crew travelling back in time to save an astronaut who's too sad to do her job; Picard being retconned into a deeply traumatised man with mummy issues; and every other line uttered by the main cast being sarcasm?' - well, I'd probably have suggested they give it a miss.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Waste? Hardly. While I care little for the PT, as several writers and fans I talk to have noted Star Wars was in a bit of a rut in the books and comics, which basically was repetition of the OT more often than not, rebellions, and Imperial warlords. The PT expanded a lot of the lore and knowledge in a powerful way.

While I don't agree with many of the installments, I will always appreciate the world building that came from it.

Worthwhile? Eh...ok, I guess. The Mandalorian is great? No I can't quite agree to that. If Filoni was given the ability to just create his own world he would have done far better.

The mandalorian is light years better than the terrible prequels. The PT didn't expand anything the mandalorian has in pretty much its entire existence. The PT was largely a copy cat work of the original movies.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Amen. I LOVED the first episode of this season. It was a thrilling hour of TV that looked as though they'd learned from the mistakes of the first season and were going to show us what we wanted to see: a deep mystery to be solved by diplomacy and thinking in the true TNG style, appearances by the Borg and Q, a return to Starfleet in the mix, our characters actually behaving as 24th century humans.

The second episode was a fun romp, if nothing else (though we've seen this sort of thing a few times before).

Everything since then has fallen back to asinine plots: if only you'd just TALK, not only would FBI agents give up their careers but the Borg Queen would stop assimilating; everyone has a mental health issue as a primary plotline; Rios shows utter disregard for causality; a good chunk of the season (as I expressed concern to a friend before it aired) is given over to them coming back in time to tell us what utter shits we are; etc etc.

I was over the moon when they said Picard was coming back. But if they'd said 'hey, shall we resurrect Star Trek? Plotlines to include: the Borg Queen belting out Pat Benatar hits at a ball; the crew travelling back in time to save an astronaut who's too sad to do her job; Picard being retconned into a deeply traumatised man with mummy issues; and every other line uttered by the main cast being sarcasm?' - well, I'd probably have suggested they give it a miss.

The first episode gave me hope then things fell apart. Yeah the Picard and his mom and dad flashbacks were so bad. The actual plot was terrible. It was the 24th century and his dads big solution to helping his mom was to lock her in a room. It was laughable. On top of that it was so boring I remember thinking hurry up lets get back to the actual story so they can maybe salvage something with this terrible meandering story. Yeah I shouldn't have held my breath. Picard season two is just as bad as the first and now I fear a season three will ruin all my favorite tng characters as that season was filmed back to back with season 2. Ugh.

 

[eschaton]

IMHO the only thing that is irritating about giving Picard a tragic past is it means every one of the main characters this season has a tragic past. I mean, we have all the stuff Seven is dealing with, and the layers of trauma for Raffi. Rios as well, though this season seems to have forgotten he was troubled, and he's now this kinda happy-go-lucky dude who doesn't even let being tazed in ICE detention get him down.

 

[gvn2fly]

DISCO and PICARD's success undermines their belief they are the voice of the geek masses.

And it's obvious that it just drives them crazy.

 

[Jadeb]

IMHO the only thing that is irritating about giving Picard a tragic past is it means every one of the main characters this season has a tragic past. I mean, we have all the stuff Seven is dealing with, and the layers of trauma for Raffi. Rios as well, though this season seems to have forgotten he was troubled, and he's now this kinda happy-go-lucky dude who doesn't even let being tazed in ICE detention get him down.

My only objection to giving Picard a tragic past is that it’s been so incredibly boring.

 

[Kaelef]

On top of that it was so boring I remember thinking hurry up lets get back to the actual story so they can maybe salvage something with this terrible meandering story.

I'm not someone who gets impatient with stories. I like thoughtful, slow-paced stories at least as well as I like action pieces. But the last episode of Picard made me stare in wonder at the ridiculous way they constantly stopped to tell the story of Picard's past in the slowest, most pedestrian way right in the middle of scenes that were supposed to be filled with excitement and tension.

I can only assume that they were under a lot of pressure to fill out more time and pad the episodes as much as possible. As has been said many times by many people, it's clear this season only has a few episodes worth of content, at best. The result is 10-episodes of largely filler material where characters accomplish nothing for episodes at a time and 10-minute backstory is stretched out to the point of becoming boring and predictable.

And even with that we ended up with some of the shortest "hours" of Star Trek ever.

IMHO the only thing that is irritating about giving Picard a tragic past is it means every one of the main characters this season has a tragic past.

I don't really have a problem with everyone in our stories having a tragic past. It's just the execution of the story that matters, and Picard has consistently done poorly there. Good writers can make weak ideas work and poor writers can take excellent ideas and ruin them.

 

[fireproof78]

Debatable. What this is, is lazy writers unable to tackle today's social injustices in a futuristic Star Trek setting. The future is too happy, the Federation is utopian, humans have evolved, there's no more racism, no crime, war, social inequality, lack of understanding of mental health etc. So how do we write about these things because we are sooo eager to highlight them? I know, let's just go back into the past, spend the entire damn season there highlighting these very issues and remind us how awful humans of the 21st century are. We surely can't be creative enough to come up with interesting and thought-provoking stories in the fictional, future world of Star Trek, can we? Let's leave that to the previous Star Trek series.

Ah, yes. In order to to say something we must be creatively bankrupt.

 

[fireproof78]

Everyone encounters trauma. Not everyone is resultingly traumatised. Being traumatised isn't a good thing and is clearly better avoided if possible, but most of us aren't equipped to do that consistently. The idea that in 300 years time, people would have an infinitely better grasp of the human psyche and handle pain that much better is highly plausible, when you consider how much more enlightened we are over even say the last 50 years.

It would be a disappointment to suggest that humans of the future really weren't any better at dealing with things than we are now (see: an admiral who represses his memory for almost a century).

People keep saying this and I just don't buy it. The supposedly evolved humanity was snobbish, elitist and consistently looked down on anything they don't understand. By trying to say they were better it came across as arrogant without actually being better. A child is told not to mourn, while Riker is totally fine to pout about his former romantic partner engaged to another person.

People repress memories for a variety of reasons. For instance, Picard might well have been told not to mourn his mom, resulting in a lack of processing through that memory fully. I don't see this as a failing of the evolved society but an aspect of humanity to still explore.

Finally, if you just tell me that humanity as evolved and therefore no one is traumatized in the future then such a story comes across as fantasy because you never tell me how they are evolved in the first place!

 

[TRON JA307020]

I'm not someone who gets impatient with stories. I like thoughtful, slow-paced stories at least as well as I like action pieces. But the last episode of Picard made me stare in wonder at the ridiculous way they constantly stopped to tell the story of Picard's past in the slowest, most pedestrian way right in the middle of scenes that were supposed to be filled with excitement and tension.

I can only assume that they were under a lot of pressure to fill out more time and pad the episodes as much as possible. As has been said many times by many people, it's clear this season only has a few episodes worth of content, at best. The result is 10-episodes of largely filler material where characters accomplish nothing for episodes at a time and 10-minute backstory is stretched out to the point of becoming boring and predictable.

And even with that we ended up with some of the shortest "hours" of Star Trek ever.

I don't really have a problem with everyone in our stories having a tragic past. It's just the execution of the story that matters, and Picard has consistently done poorly there. Good writers can make weak ideas work and poor writers can take excellent ideas and ruin them.

Yeah I was on my computer watching the last ep and keep losing focus especially at the Picard flashbacks. I would go on my phone and text people or look up the news of the day. I havent even done that on older trek eveb where I know the eps by heart. Picard is incredibly boring.

 

[fireproof78]

The mandalorian is light years better than the terrible prequels. The PT didn't expand anything the mandalorian has in pretty much its entire existence. The PT was largely a copy cat work of the original movies.

No, it wasn't.
And the Mandalorian is terrible. It just repeats the same beats as the OT, only with far less interesting characters.

 

[TRON JA307020]

No, it wasn't.
And the Mandalorian is terrible. It just repeats the same beats as the OT, only with far less interesting characters.

How is it like the original trilogy? Except for being in the same world and visting tatooine the story is completely different. The mandalorian is so much more popular than Picard or Discovery as it's become a nationwide sensation. Can't say the same for STP or STD.

 

[eschaton]

People keep saying this and I just don't buy it. The supposedly evolved humanity was snobbish, elitist and consistently looked down on anything they don't understand. By trying to say they were better it came across as arrogant without actually being better. A child is told not to mourn, while Riker is totally fine to pout about his former romantic partner engaged to another person.

I dunno man. I went through some heavy-ass shit in my life, from my father coming down to a debilitating disease in my childhood, to my own son being diagnosed with Stage 4 cancer when he was 2 (he's 8 now and fine, BTW). But while this shit was awful to go through I don't...really think that much about any of it any longer. That's not to say I don't have my own mental quirks (I constantly fight against my ADHD to be productive) but even my son's cancer treatment, which wasn't that long ago...feels like it happened to someone else now. I just dealt with the pain, and moved on.

That isn't to say that every character should be like this - of course I don't want that. But some characters undoubtedly should, because variety in terms of characterization is part of what makes stories interesting. I am guessing this is part of the reason why in this season of Picard they decided to have Rios (minus his ICE adventure) have a more lighthearted subplot - to counterbalance all the heavy drama happening elsewhere.

 

[fireproof78]

How is it like the original trilogy? Except for being in the same world and visting tattooing the story is completely different. The mandalorian is so much more popular than Picard or Discovery as it's become a nationwide sensation. Can't say the same for STP or STD.

Don't care about popularity.

The Mandalorian is just OT style rebel vs. the establishment. With the dullness of characters like the PT.

 

[Llywela]

IMHO the only thing that is irritating about giving Picard a tragic past is it means every one of the main characters this season has a tragic past.

Picard already had a tragic past. This season simply heaps a childhood tragedy on top of what we already knew.

That said, I agree that it's a thin premise on which to build an entire season. I mean, we're going into the finale still hazy on how Picard's childhood tragedy has anything at all to do with the central plot of Q snatching a bunch of people out of the moment of their deaths and into an altered timeline, which they then went back in time to try to set straight.

The longer the season goes on, the more certain I am that the most interesting stories this show had to tell all happened off-screen between seasons. It's disappointing because 2.01 was simply brimming with potential - and was also, not at all coincidentally, the only episode this season that was actually about the characters we'd come to know through season one. It was the only episode of the season that picked up each one of their stories and moved them forward, caught us up with what happened next and where they are now, and it did that in interesting and engaging ways that left us wanting more. Picard had found his retirement niche as Chancellor of the Academy - so perfect, a whole new generation of cadets to inspire. Elnor as the first Romulan cadet in Starfleet, and not even your standard Romulan either, but one raised by the Qowat Milat - there's a whole wealth of story potential right there. Raffi and Rios back in Starfleet - I immediately had so many questions around how that came about, whether the decision to go back was difficult or easy to make for either of them, whether or not they have any regrets, what kind of challenges they'd have faced after so many years out in the cold, were there whispers and rumours behind their backs about the circumstances of their respective discharges and reinstatement, etc. From what little we saw of him commanding the Stargazer, Rios has a laid-back style of captaincy that's all his own, he seemed to have a strong rapport with his new crew, but surely after 10 years out in the cold living alone with only the holos for company, that must have been a huge adjustment to make. Soji and Agnes were off on their diplomatic tour, Agnes having been through the legal process for the murder of Maddox in the interim - not to mention her breakup with Rios. Seven as captain of La Sirena, living alone with the merged Rios holos - from what we saw, she's clearly formed a strong friendship with Rios, having met and formed a rapport in season one, so is living with a holo based on him more or less weird because of that friendship with the original? Then there's the Seven-Raffi relationship, which had progressed off-screen but they are struggling to make work, given their very different career paths.I mean, it was all really interesting stuff - there's a whole season's worth of character arcs right there, ripe for the exploration..

But then the show dropped every single one of those character stories, except for the halting Seven/Raffi relationship, in favour of having the characters trail around after a plot that had nothing to do with any of them all season. Soji got left behind, apparently because the storyline the writers had fixed on might have been harder to pull off with her around, so rather than write around that problem they just dropped the character. Elnor was killed off early in episode three and has had a couple of hallucination cameos and one brief stint as a holo since. Rios has spent the whole season isolated from the rest of the cast in highly generic sub-plots entirely unrelated to anything we already knew about him. And his breakup with Agnes seems to have been designed purely to facilitate her story arc of being vulnerable to the Borg Queen's manipulations and ending up being assimilated - which is a hell of a depressing ending for the character, even if she does transform the Borg. The Agnes we knew from season one is effectively dead at this point. Rios is looking more and more likely to remain behind in 2024 to face the horrors of World War III, never mind the promisingly rejuvenated career he left behind in the future and seemed so happy to have reclaimed.

It just all feels so horribly wasteful. They all had so much potential.

 

[JRob94]

My two cents. The season started out strong and, like Discovery Season 4, has seemed to drag through the middle. I’m really concerned about them sticking the landing with just one episode left and so many threads still dangling.

On the plus side, last season I really had a hard time connecting with Jurati and Rios as characters in Season 1. During Season 2 I’ve really enjoyed their characters.