Who's in charge here? (Sulu vs. Scott in the 1st season)

[jackoverfull]

McCoy doesn't get to wear the two solid braids because Life Sciences or the Chief Medical Officer administratively reports to the Chief Science Officer, i.e. Spock

I never got the impression that bones reported to Spock in any way.

They are, but I suspect making them dashed braids is a more involved process...

remove the old ones and sew the new ones. They were sewed on anyway, new uniforms or not (with this I’m not saying I know that that was a reused costume, just that these kind of modifications are hardly difficult to accomplish for a production).

 

[Vger23]

Talent Development planning? Rotate them in to get them experience.

 

[Henoch]

Gary Mitchell's corpse.

Captain's Log, stardate 1673.1. Entry made by Second Officer Spock. Captain Kirk retains command of this vessel, but his force of will rapidly fading. Condition of landing party critical. Transporter unit still under repair.

Captain: James Kirk (the first James Kirk to exit the transporter)
First Officer: James Kirk (the second James Kirkto exit the transporter)
Second Officer: Spock (now demoted with the arrival of the second James Kirk.)

No, actually, based on Spock's inference, Kirk is the Enterprise's first officer or first in command, i.e. the Captain, and Spock is the Enterprise's second officer or second in command. Spock is also termed Kirk's first officer but still second in command.

 

[Henoch]

I wonder if it is rare for true Commander ranks to be on Starships, rather, they are usually captains of lesser ships and wearing captain braids (without the true Captain rank). Similarly, Lt. Commander ranks that hold Department positions on Starships get to wear commander braids denoting their position on the ship, while other Lt. Commanders are only allowed to wear their normal Lt. Commander braids. Being in charge over ships (only one per ship) and departments (only three based on the three color uniforms) gives you a one position bump in rank braids if you don't have the real rank (and in pay if money existed) to denote your position on the ship. Another theory is that only the most senior in seniority for each of the three departments gets to wear the commander braids, but they may not be in line for command of the ship.

As for why Scotty never wore Commander braids in TOS, maybe the Commander of Operations was Lieutenant Commander Giotto, after all.

First Season roster:
Captain (Command) of Ship: Captain Kirk
First Officer (Second in Command): Lieutenant Commander Spock
Second Officer: Lieutenant Commander Scott
Third Officer: Lieutenant Sulu
Forth Officer: Lieutenant DeSalle
Senior Officer in the Command (gold) Department: Lieutenant Commander Finney, Records Officer.
Senior Officer in the Operations (red) Department: Lieutenant Commander Giotto, Chief Security Officer
Senior Officer in the Sciences (blue) Department: Lieutenant Commander Spock, Chief Science Officer (dual job)

I think this works. YMMV .

 

[BK613]

The whole thing could be a frocking mess, you know....

 

[Neopeius]

I never got the impression that bones reported to Spock in any way.
remove the old ones and sew the new ones. They were sewed on anyway, new uniforms or not (with this I’m not saying I know that that was a reused costume, just that these kind of modifications are hardly difficult to accomplish for a production).

Right, but in that case, it could be any spare goldshirt, not necessarily Finney's.

 

[Neopeius]

First Season roster:
Captain (Command) of Ship: Captain Kirk
First Officer (Second in Command): Lieutenant Commander Spock
Second Officer: Lieutenant Commander Scott
Third Officer: Lieutenant Sulu
Fourth Officer: Lieutenant DeSalle
Senior Officer in the Command (gold) Department: Lieutenant Commander Finney, Records Officer.
Senior Officer in the Operations (red) Department: Lieutenant Commander Giotto, Chief Security Officer
Senior Officer in the Sciences (blue) Department: Lieutenant Commander Spock, Chief Science Officer (dual job)

I think this works. YMMV .

First, I love the effort you're giving to this thought experiment, thank you. I've been on this board for more than two decades, and it's nice seeing there's still fresh stuff to discuss.

I feel as though your placement of DeSalle is informed by 2nd season (when he's in command of the Enterprise while Asst. Chief Engineer). As of 1st season, we've only seen him twice, and we don't even know what his position is in "Gothos" and "Paradise".


Seeing what we've seen thus far, I think I'd say:

First Season roster:
Captain (Command) of Ship: Captain Kirk
First Officer (Second in Command): Lieutenant Commander Spock
Second Officer: Lieutenant Sulu
Third Officer: Lieutenant Commander Scott
Forth Officer: Lieutenant Hansen (three episodes and he's in the center seat for two)
Senior Officer in the Line (gold) Department: Lieutenant Commander Finney, Records Officer. (later Alternative Factor Guy)
Senior Officer in the Technical (red) Department: Lieutenant Commander Giotto, Chief Security Officer
Senior Officer in the Staff (blue) Department: Lieutenant Commander Spock, Chief Science Officer (dual job)

I don't like "Ops" for red since Ops is a real Navy department, and it's not engineering or damage control, which is what redshirts do in Trek when they're not Yeomen or mooks.

 

[dupersuper]

Sometimes Scotty was off ship too so who else had the clout to command the ship besides Sulu?
JB

Uhura did at least once.

 

[jackoverfull]

Right, but in that case, it could be any spare goldshirt, not necessarily Finney's.

yep. No idea why Finney’s came into play here.

 

[Neopeius]

Uhura did at least once.

"Lorelei Signal" in TAS (they have an episode called "Mark of Gideon", an episode called "Lorelei Signal" and a major character named Janice. Star Trek's got taste.)

That means Uhura is the highest in line female officer, at least come Season 4.

yep. No idea why Finney’s came into play here.

Because Finney was a Lt. Commander and the original poster assumed, thus, that Alternative Factor extra-guy was wearing his shirt. Except Finney wore a two-stripe shirt.

And around we go! You know most people call them green onions, but they're really scallions...

 

[comsol]

I thought that they removed the braid and insignia from the uniforms every time they were dry-cleaned, so the fact that two actors had shirts with the same amount of braids doesn't mean that they were the same shirts.

 

[J.T.B.]

First Season roster:
Captain (Command) of Ship: Captain Kirk
First Officer (Second in Command): Lieutenant Commander Spock
Second Officer: Lieutenant Sulu
Third Officer: Lieutenant Commander Scott
Forth Officer: Lieutenant Hansen (three episodes and he's in the center seat for two)
Senior Officer in the Line (gold) Department: Lieutenant Commander Finney, Records Officer. (later Alternative Factor Guy)
Senior Officer in the Technical (red) Department: Lieutenant Commander Giotto, Chief Security Officer
Senior Officer in the Staff (blue) Department: Lieutenant Commander Spock, Chief Science Officer (dual job)

I don't find "line" to be a great fit for a division title even in season one, as it had been established that redshirt Scotty was an "officer of the line." If I was to take an uninformed guess at that point I might come up with "control, "support" and "science."

I don't like "Ops" for red since Ops is a real Navy department, and it's not engineering or damage control, which is what redshirts do in Trek when they're not Yeomen or mooks.

Since the bridge also functions as a CIC and Spock and the helm/nav team seem to handle all the sensor duties, it's hard for me to picture what a full operations department would be doing. Since communications is red, though, it wouldn't seem out of the question if ops was as well.

I thought that they removed the braid and insignia from the uniforms every time they were dry-cleaned, so the fact that two actors had shirts with the same amount of braids doesn't mean that they were the same shirts.

I think so. There's really a wide range of spacing, both vertically for the stripes and horizontally for the dashes.

 

[Commishsleer]

Perhaps under normal circumstances only goldshirts can take command. Redshirts and blueshirts don't have command training.
Now there's Scotty and Spock who clearly take command all the time but in WNMHGB they were wearing gold. So I think Scotty and Spock could actually be wearing gold as they are in the command structure but because they are also department heads they wear the colours of their department despite being 2nd and 3rd in command.

 

[Neopeius]

Perhaps under normal circumstances only goldshirts can take command. Redshirts and blueshirts don't have command training.
Now there's Scotty and Spock who clearly take command all the time but in WNMHGB they were wearing gold. So I think Scotty and Spock could actually be wearing gold as they are in the command structure but because they are also department heads they wear the colours of their department despite being 2nd and 3rd in command.

I just watched WNMHGB yesterday (for the third time this season!). Scotty wears salmon, same color as Kelso and Mitchell. Spock is wearing the same color tunic as Kirk. And Yeoman Jones...er...Smith.

None of this invalidates your suppositions, of course!

Interestingly, I finally noticed the arrowhead insignia for the first time. The salmon is the double circles; the blue has the comet curl.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Perhaps under normal circumstances only goldshirts can take command. Redshirts and blueshirts don't have command training.
Now there's Scotty and Spock who clearly take command all the time but in WNMHGB they were wearing gold. So I think Scotty and Spock could actually be wearing gold as they are in the command structure but because they are also department heads they wear the colours of their department despite being 2nd and 3rd in command.

I think Starfleet is nowhere near as strict as the Navy regarding what uniform you wear. Starfleet retains a little of NASA's casual attitude. Astronauts aboard the ISS don't wear strict uniforms identifying their jobs, AFAIK. They all know each other and they're just doing their jobs.

As an example, I believe Dr. Ann Mulhall made her choice because the blue washed her out, while the red accented her rosy complexion and she popped. The camera loved her.

 

[Neopeius]

Having just watched "Mirror, Mirror", there are indications that Sulu is #3 in the mirrorverse:

"Is the Captain here? Is Spock here? When the cat's away..."

"You will also to appear have killed Mr. Spock. Regrettable, but it will leave me in command of the Enterprise."

No mention of Scotty either time. Obviously, the mirrorverse is not our universe, and Sulu has the additional job of Security Chief, but it is interesting.

(I also note how many fewer women there appear to be on the I.S.S. Enterprise. Are there folks without doubles on both ships?)

 

[jackoverfull]

Well, the woman condition is clearly, and not very surprising, worse in the mirror verse in general (at least in the TOS episode), so it’s not surprising that not many serve on starships (and even the ones who do might do it let’s say unconventionally, let’s remember that it was totally normal for the captain to have a personal mistress who even had a specific title).

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Sulu in charge makes sense from a Naval operations stand-point. A ship's captain is a driver, who not only makes decisions but is a capable helmsmen. Sulu is in the command track, a line-officer—in the line of command.

TOS was much more aware of Naval operations. For instance, Spock surrenders to Bones as the senior ranking officer in "The Menagerie, Part I" but turns operational command over Lt. Hanson, who is a line officer.

However, James Doohan cost more than Takei and had an option for more episode appearances. (@Harvey or @Maurice, please correct me if I'm mistaken.) So it makes financial Justman sense they'd put Scotty in the chair instead. Also, personal opinion, but Doohan is a far better actor than Takei.

 

[Harvey]

However, James Doohan cost more than Takei and had an option for more episode appearances. (@Harvey or @Maurice, please correct me if I'm mistaken.) So it makes sense they'd put Scotty in the chair instead.

Doohan's rate was $850 for a max of 6 days per show. 5 shows guaranteed.

Takei's rate was $600 for a max of 5 days per show. 7 shows guaranteed.

Late in the first season, the producers made a sliding scale deal with Doohan where they could bring him on for additional shows beyond his guarantee at a reduced rate if he did fewer filming days.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Doohan's rate was $850 for a max of 6 days per show. 5 shows guaranteed.

Takei's rate was $600 for a max of 5 days per show. 7 shows guaranteed.

Late in the first season, the producers made a sliding scale deal with Doohan where they could bring him on for additional shows beyond his guarantee at a reduced rate if he did fewer filming days.

Thanks, half of my statement was right... the other half needed a FACT TREK! (See what I did there.)