Who's in charge here? (Sulu vs. Scott in the 1st season)

[ZapBrannigan]

In the Navy, I doubt if the "line of succession" becomes an issue very often, or ever. I think real warship captains on deployment keep their nose to the grindstone, as do their executive officers. They don't go ashore someplace new every week, let alone disembark together and name somebody acting captain. Unless I'm badly mistaken. There are several differences between a Navy ship and the Enterprise that give Kirk a lot more freedom.

 

[Neopeius]

In the Navy, I doubt if the "line of succession" becomes an issue very often, or ever. I think real warship captains on deployment keep their nose to the grindstone, as do their executive officers. They don't go ashore someplace new every week, let alone disembark together and name somebody acting captain. Unless I'm badly mistaken. There are several differences between a Navy ship and the Enterprise that give Kirk a lot more freedom.

You are absolutely not mistaken. The chain of command thing was really only an issue in wartime (e.g. WW2).

 

[ZapBrannigan]

You are absolutely not mistaken. The chain of command thing was really only an issue in wartime (e.g. WW2).

Thanks. If the Chief Engineer found himself in command during wartime, it might be because the bridge got hit by an artillery shell, and all things considered, it was a terrible time to be in charge. Off topic: I worry about the U.S. Navy today being so accustomed to their invincibility, so comfortable, that they are not prepared in any way, including emotionally, for what's around the corner. The Russians and Chinese have a big lead in hypersonic missiles.

 

[Neopeius]

Thanks. If the Chief Engineer found himself in command during wartime, it might be because the bridge got hit by an artillery shell, and all things considered, it was a terrible time to be in charge.

I have not read accounts of a Chief Engineer ending up in charge. I have read an account of a Damage Control Officer ending up in charge, and that's one person up.

 

[dupersuper]

Yeah, as others have said I've always just taken it as Scotty has the higher rank but he's usually busy with engineering stuff.

 

[Henoch]

Yes, as a department head. Currently, it's CO, XO, Ops head, Weapons head, Chief Engineer.

The OOD gets relieved by the XO in the event of combat. Since there was no XO on board during "Arena", the head goldshirt would take charge. That seems to be Sulu. (and Hansen was probably an OOD...but he might also be a department head, perhaps Weapons?)

This is based on the modernish US Navy, but I think this applied in the past. Of course, we also explicitly have "second officers" even in the 1st season, and that's more a Merchant Marine thing. But we also explicitly have department heads, since Kirk meets with them sometimes.

Edit: Looking at my 1944 Bluejackets Manual, looks like it was:

Captain
XO
Gunnery Officer
Construction & Repair 1st Lieutenant and Damage Control Officer (same person, I think)
Navigator
Engineering Officer

There are the department heads that lead lots of people. There's also

Supply Officer
Medical Officer

but I suspect they aren't in Line.

Amended a little with names for season one, but I think rank still has its privileges especially within the same department color:
Captain = Kirk
XO = Spock
Gunnery Officer = Sulu (he seems to be in control of firing the ship's weapons from the helm), (Kelso in WNMHGB, but Mitchell was higher rank and probably above him in command.)
Construction & Repair 1st Lieutenant and Damage Control Officer (same person, I think) = Scott (he lead shipboard repairs in WNMHGB) and just about all other repairs during the series.
Navigator = that Lt. Cmd. we saw only once...but not Bailey, or Stiles (maybe, after all he was in the main conference on the Romulans, maybe just a subject matter expert). (Mitchell in WNMHGB)
Engineering Officer = Scott
Not in ship command structure:
Science Office = Spock, but see above (Sulu? in WNMHGB)
Supply Officer = Crapgame
Medical Officer = McCoy (Piper in WNMHGB)

 

[Neopeius]

Supply Officer = Crapgame

You don't endorse Sgt. Rickles?

It's a great list -- do you see a place for an Ops Officer?

 

[Henoch]

You don't endorse Sgt. Rickles?

Why not.

It's a great list -- do you see a place for an Ops Officer?

Probably that Lt. Cmd. Navigator we saw once...(but for WNMHGB, it's Mitchell in addition to being the Navigator.)

 

[BK613]

The departments and divisions provide for the administrative hierarchy but watchstanding provides for the operational hierarchy. I suggest people look up how the Ship's Organization Book, the Battle Bill, and Watch, Quarter, and Station Bills figure into how a ship is manned.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

The departments and divisions provide for the administrative hierarchy but watchstanding provides for the operational hierarchy. I suggest people look up how the Ship's Organization Book, the Battle Bill, and Watch, Quarter, and Station Bills figure into how a ship is manned.

That makes sense. I'm not familiar. But I think we're rubbing up against the ways Starfleet needs to be different from the Navy. For instance, we have Kirk giving both rudder orders and gunnery orders during battle, while a Navy ship might have a navigation bridge and separately, a combat management room.

Starfleet has to be taking after not just the Navy, but the Air Force and NASA, where the commander of a mission and his much smaller crew have their own few hands on everything. And that lends itself to a more direct, efficient drama suited to the time and money constraints of Star Trek.

 

[Neopeius]

That makes sense. I'm not familiar. But I think we're rubbing up against the ways Starfleet needs to be different from the Navy. For instance, we have Kirk giving both rudder orders and gunnery orders during battle, while a Navy ship might have a navigation bridge and separately, a combat management room.

Starfleet has to be taking after not just the Navy, but the Air Force and NASA, where the commander of a mission and his much smaller crew have their own few hands on everything. And that lends itself to a more direct, efficient drama suited to the time and money constraints of Star Trek.

"We're a combined service."

 

[johnnybear]

Sometimes Scotty was off ship too so who else had the clout to command the ship besides Sulu?
JB

 

[BK613]

@ZapBrannigan Oh I get that. But fans tend to look for simple solutions in these discussions and reality is never really simple. Why can't the answer to the question posited in the thread title be both?

Regardless, my post was meant to be informative only.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Sometimes Scotty was off ship too so who else had the clout to command the ship besides Sulu?
JB

Sounds like Catspaw.

Johnny, where have you been? I was wondering just yesterday whatever happened to johnnybear.

 

[johnnybear]

Yes I've been away from earth for a long time in the Orion Nebula, Zap! Thanks for wondering where I was!
JB

 

[Henoch]

Sounds like Catspaw.

Johnny, where have you been? I was wondering just yesterday whatever happened to johnnybear.

During The Alternative Factor, both Scotty and Sulu were off ship. It looks like Un-named Lt. Cmd. Gold Shirt (in real world, the actor was probably wearing Finney's costume) on Nav was cross-training Lt. Leslie on Helm and even lets him sit in the big chair as the OOD for command training, too...could be.

Speaking of Finney, up until Court Martial, he was probably third or forth in command of the ship. One of his admin duties under his department was Personnel Records* Officer.

@johnnybear, great to hear from you, too!

<*Edit.>

 

[Neopeius]

During The Alternative Factor, both Scotty and Sulu were off ship. It looks like Un-named Lt. Cmd. Gold Shirt (in real world, the actor was probably wearing Finney's costume) on Nav was cross-training Lt. Leslie on Helm and even lets him sit in the big chair as the OOD for command training, too...could be.

Speaking of Finney, up until Court Martial, he was probably third or forth in command of the ship. One of his admin duties under his department was Personnel Officer.

@johnnybear, great to hear from you, too!

Finney, as the Records Officer (i.e. IT) may not have had anyone beneath him. It'd be equivalent to a Signals Officer. Someone with potentially high rank, but as a non-department head, not in line for command.

One wonders if someone like Giotto is in line or not (the color of shirt suggests not, but Scotty...)

Also, unnamed Lt. Com. is probably not wearing Finney's tunic. Finney's tunic, like Spock's, had two full braids. More confusion!

 

[jackoverfull]

Braids are easy to remove…

 

[Henoch]

Finney, as the Records Officer (i.e. IT) may not have had anyone beneath him. It'd be equivalent to a Signals Officer. Someone with potentially high rank, but as a non-department head, not in line for command.

One wonders if someone like Giotto is in line or not (the color of shirt suggests not, but Scotty...)

Also, unnamed Lt. Com. is probably not wearing Finney's tunic. Finney's tunic, like Spock's, had two full braids. More confusion!

Per dialog: "STONE: It's a great pity. The service can't afford to lose men like Lieutenant Commander Finney."
https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x20/Court_Martial_415.JPG
Like Spock, Finney wore two solid braids. Definitely Confusing. Gold Shirt Finney had to be in line for command since he was passed over for promotions and aspired to be Captain, then blamed Kirk.

Off-ship, Security Red Shirt Cmd. Giotto is in command of the ground forces or "marines" (behind Kirk and Spock, of course). On ship, he's probably not in line for ship command, but would be the Department Head and Chief Security Officer reporting directly to the Captain. Maybe Department Heads get to wear two solid braids even if they are Lt. Commanders. McCoy doesn't get to wear the two solid braids because Life Sciences or the Chief Medical Officer administratively reports to the Chief Science Officer, i.e. Spock.
https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x25/The_Devil_in_the_Dark_133.JPG

 

[Neopeius]

Braids are easy to remove…

They are, but I suspect making them dashed braids is a more involved process...