Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x07 - "Monsters"

[jackoverfull]

the only thing I didn't like was the whole RoboPicard thing because it just seemed to be a way for the writers to have their cake and eat it by giving him a 'moment of glory' send off only to undo it

worked for me, I love the irony of having one of the most human characters ending up as a synth. That said, that double episode had PLENTY of issues, I didn’t like it much.

Plus, it was weird for Data to insist on dying as it's an essential part of being human,

yeah, his wanting to die at that juncture never made sense to me. Heck, give him a body like Picard’s and have him live the full human experience, aging and yes, eventually, dying.

The guy who played the FBI agent at the end of episode 7 also played a 29th century Starfleet temporal investigator in Voyager. They literally had the opportunity to fix a lot of the show's problems by having the guy be the same temporal investigator who comes to stop Picard from messing up the timeline but the writers are so stupid and incompetent that they immediately threw this opportunity in the trash.

let me guess, a few episodes ago you were saying they were stupid and incompetent at having Talin use a romulan padd, right? The story is far from over yet.

I think in the future , they should institute some certification program for Star Trek writers. As a start, all writer have to watch all Star Trek series and movies which is tested by an strict exam, secondly, the episodes they write need to be peer reviewed by at least 2 writers with proven credentials of well written star trek episodes, only after verification they should have been given authorization to actually shoot it. This should prevent the embarrassing mistakes made in the last few Picard episodes as it appears the writer complete ignore or intentionally contradict previous episodes.

I’m laughing so hard, you are a natural joker!

wait, it’s a joke, isn’t it?

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I suppose the next stage of the downward spiral in thread discussion is for the account “FreeTruthSpeaker” to sign up and combine the vapid thought bubbles by posting a long explanation of why some YouTuber should be the new showrunner.

I'm sure they'll also be posting a lot in the TOS and Berman-era Trek forums about all the things they love, so we'll get all that positive discussion to look forward to as well. I mean signing up just to exclusively hate on new Star Trek and talk about how it sucks compared to old Star Trek without actually caring about old Star Trek would be kind of insane!

 

[137th Gebirg]

I think in the future , they should institute some certification program for Star Trek writers. As a start, all writer have to watch all Star Trek series and movies which is tested by an strict exam, secondly, the episodes they write need to be peer reviewed by at least 2 writers with proven credentials of well written star trek episodes, only after verification they should have been given authorization to actually shoot it. This should prevent the embarrassing mistakes made in the last few Picard episodes as it appears the writer complete ignore or intentionally contradict previous episodes.

Keep in mind that Nick Meyer’s total sum knowledge of Star Trek when he was tapped to do TWOK was “that’s the one with the guy with the ears, right?” or something to that effect.

With all the film’s faults that have been endlessly debated across the decades, he is still largely credited with being the savior of the franchise.

 

[Sebine_91]

I don't think being a massive fan of Star Trek is necessary for writing it and indeed the same goes for other sci-fi franchises. Indeed, Andrew Cartmel's my favourite Doctor Who writer/script editor but he didn't know much about the show before he started. I don't think there have been any major glaring continuity issues in this season. The Guinan one springs to mind but if Guinan never met Picard due to the timeline playing out differently as per the official comment then it makes sense. I see that more as an issue with inconsistent time travel writing.

I suppose however it is weird that Guinan was willing to hobnob with high society types in the nineteenth century when things were much worse for the poor and disenfranchised than they are nowadays but she's apparently ultra-concerned about it now. I think more than anything it highlights the contrasting tones of TNG and Picard. Guinan being around Mark Twain and co. made sense in a family friendly sci-fi show where the past is an incredibly sanitised version of the past (Doctor Who also does this) However, because Picard's tone is decidedly more adult and not a million miles away from the modern Battlestar (albeit not as bleak) then Guinan commenting on social issues makes sense.

It's certainly been a divisive series and I'm not going to lie, it's the only time watching anything really I've gone full nerd-mode and commented about various things. Normally, I can just enjoy stuff even if I'm not blind to its flaws (e.g. I have my criticisms of the Star Wars sequels but had a huge amount of fun at the cinema watching all three). I had a really great time with the last season and I think I even said on here that if that was it then it was a more fitting ending than Nemesis. I do think Picard doesn't quite know what show it wants to be and I got the same vibe from the first two Discovery seasons. I also feel it's important to remember that Sir Patrick's evidently happy with what we got and was never going to come back for more TNG-style starship based adventures so I suppose a more 'traditional' version of Picard was never on the cards.

 

[donners22]

Keep in mind that Nick Meyer’s total sum knowledge of Star Trek when he was tapped to do TWOK was “that’s the one with the guy with the ears, right?” or something to that effect.

With all the film’s faults that have been endlessly debated across the decades, he is still largely credited with being the savior of the franchise.

He is also openly critical of aspects of TOS - his comments about how it’s too solemn, and that it equates to Americans going around imposing their values on “lesser” races - would spark an internet storm if they came from current writers.

Not to mention that works we’ve got from long-time fans include the likes of Nemesis and Precious Cargo - it’s not remotely a guarantee of quality.

Plus, of course, even if it was a trait considered valuable, the likes of Chabon and Goldsman were fans long before they were involved in Trek.

 

[Vale]

yeah, his wanting to die at that juncture never made sense to me.

Hadn't he spent years in his quantum simulation though? Since for an android 0.68 seconds is "nearly an eternity", maybe he'd just had enough by that point. Also, Data in the quantum simulation is an incomplete copy of the original, based on memories downloaded into B4 – he may feel that he's not the "real" Data.

Heck, give him a body like Picard’s and have him live the full human experience, aging and yes, eventually, dying.

That would have been an interesting link to The Bicentennial Man by Isaac Asimov. Also gets around the thorny issue of Brent Spiner being physically much older than he's supposed to be to play Data, even though Data could age.

 

[Sebine_91]

He is also openly critical of aspects of TOS - his comments about how it’s too solemn, and that it equates to Americans going around imposing their values on “lesser” races - would spark an internet storm if it came from current writers.

Not to mention that works we’ve got from long-time fans include the likes of Nemesis and Precious Cargo, which I think are far worse than anything we’ve got from modern Trek.

Indeed, I sometimes think there's actually an argument for keeping massive fans away from the big sci-fi franchises! I mean, I remember the reimagined Battlestar was REALLY controversial when it started due to how different it was but it became one of the most acclaimed modern sci-fi series.

 

[Anduinel]

I enjoyed season 1 overall. Had some issues with the tentacle monsters coming through a portal, the shag bash stuff, and Picard at the end, but I mostly enjoyed the journey.

A few weeks ago I would have said season 2 is easily better than season 1, but based on the last few episodes I may have to give it to season 1. The most recent episode of Picard was my least favorite of all the Treks since Discovery started.

Right now, I like the overall plot of S2 more and feel like the room has a better idea of where they're going overall, and they're making better use of Cabrera and Pill. But. I can't think of a single episode yet this season that I'd rewatch for pleasure, and there are two or three of those in S1, despite the trainwreck of the finale episodes. Both of them tripped over themselves in pacing, so no points there for anyone. So I guess it'll come to down to the finale for S2.

 

[gvn2fly]

And? Fan status means nothing. I was a TOS fan, uniform and phaser, concordance and all. And TNG is not for me. I tired and had to shut it off.

Fan status doesn't guarantee enjoyment. Nor should I be mollofied to watch a show.

Yup. Never even heard of that person before. Why should anyone care what they think? He's just another random person just like all of us here.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Indeed, I sometimes think there's actually an argument for keeping massive fans away from the big sci-fi franchises! I mean, I remember the reimagined Battlestar was REALLY controversial when it started due to how different it was but it became one of the most acclaimed modern sci-fi series.

I don't think Ron Moore was a massive fan of Battlestar Galactica, but I've heard that he'd seen it and was fond of it, and he was definitely one of the biggest Star Trek fans writing for TNG and DS9.

He was also working on a Dragonriders of Pern adaption but walked away when the studio made changes to the script that didn't fit the spirit of the original books.

Yup. Never even heard of that person before. Why should anyone care what they think? He's just another random person just like all of us here.

I'm a fan of Angry Joe's videos, he's one of my favourite YouTube reviewers and I enjoy seeing what he has to say about things. And I disagree with stuff he says, like, all the time! So I'm sorry that he doesn't like Picard s2 as much as I'm liking it, I agree with him that it could be better and I hope Strange New Worlds is more his thing.

 

[gvn2fly]

I also feel it's important to remember that Sir Patrick's evidently happy with what we got and was never going to come back for more TNG-style starship based adventures so I suppose a more 'traditional' version of Picard was never on the cards.

So, I think you have people that were going to hate it no matter what and people that were going to hate anything except a TNG style show. I didn't want a more TNG style starship show, and as someone overall ok with what we got in season 1 (but think it could have been a lot better), I think them wanting to go in a different direction was the right call. My issue is, and really as it relates to the last 4 episodes of season 2 to various degrees, is that the writing is lacking. Someone in this thread wrote many points of various critiques about this episode and I agreed with almost all of them. Everything that was being shown just took me out of what was happening, little made sense, the story wasn't progressing, etc... Now, I like a lot of "slow burn" shows so I'm fine with the story not progressing with a compelling script, but I didn't see that in this one.

 

[The Wormhole]

I think in the future , they should institute some certification program for Star Trek writers. As a start, all writer have to watch all Star Trek series and movies which is tested by an strict exam, secondly, the episodes they write need to be peer reviewed by at least 2 writers with proven credentials of well written star trek episodes, only after verification they should have been given authorization to actually shoot it. This should prevent the embarrassing mistakes made in the last few Picard episodes as it appears the writer complete ignore or intentionally contradict previous episodes.

So much wrong here. First of all, many of the franchise's best come from writers with no prior knowledge of the franchise, such as Nick Meyer with TWOK. Second of all, how are you going to get writers with proven credentials of well written Star Trek episodes to peer review the scripts? Most of the writers held in high esteem are either dead or Completely Done with the franchise.

But I'm thinking you don't understand how television works. At all.

 

[Sebine_91]

I don't think Ron Moore was a massive fan of Battlestar Galactica, but I've heard that he'd seen it and was fond of it, and he was definitely one of the biggest Star Trek fans writing for TNG and DS9.

He was also working on a Dragonriders of Pern adaption but walked away when the studio made changes to the script that didn't fit the spirit of the original books.

I think it just boils down to writing chops really. There's no hard and fast rule but I don't think not being a massive fan is an issue and so long as it's not chock full of weird fannish references I don't think that's an issue either really.

So, I think you have people that were going to hate it no matter what and people that were going to hate anything except a TNG style show. I didn't want a more TNG style starship show, and as someone overall ok with what we got in season 1 (but think it could have been a lot better), I think them wanting to go in a different direction was the right call. My issue is, and really as it relates to the last 4 episodes of season 2 to various degrees, is that the writing is lacking. Someone in this thread wrote many points of various critiques about this episode and I agreed with almost all of them. Everything that was being shown just took me out of what was happening, little made sense, the story wasn't progressing, etc... Now, I like a lot of "slow burn" shows so I'm fine with the story not progressing with a compelling script, but I didn't see that in this one.

This is also my feeling re the show. I loved the more 'off grid' aspect of Season One and Picard and co. going around the universe in La Sirena is a show I'd have loved to see. Maybe they could have even get involved with the odd federation thing (like Book in Discovery) and a few old faces could have shown up. I've agreed with all the RedLetterMedia guys' criticisms re the writing of this current season and feel a lot of it is painfully contrived so I'm with you there.

I think the problem is the show lacks identity. I loved the possibility of Picard leading a crew of misfits aboard La Sirena. However they've jerked from that to "let's do The Voyage Home" to "big old TNG reunion on a starship" for Season Three. I get the need for variety but some consistency is good. I think The Mandalorian straddled feeling like Star Wars but doing something new and exciting well. Equally, I'd say the same about the first season of Picard.

 

[Jack Wolfe]

Saw some other rude responses from Matalas to some questions. One said they liked the show and was asking about why no one checked on those security guards that were knocked out. Matalas said that poster can write a Fan fiction about it. Came off as pretty rude.

A bit late, but who fucking cares about whether the bad guys are OK? They are an obstacle to be gotten past. Simple as that. If you feel a need to nurse-maid them, that's on you. The story will rightly leave them and you behind to get on to more interesting things.

 

[Gov Kodos]

So much wrong here. First of all, many of the franchise's best come from writers with no prior knowledge of the franchise, such as Nick Meyer with TWOK. Second of all, how are you going to get writers with proven credentials of well written Star Trek episodes to peer review the scripts? Most of the writers held in high esteem are either dead or Completely Done with the franchise.

But I'm thinking you don't understand how television works. At all.

Harlan Ellison. Hated Star Trek. Wrote one of its best episodes. Go figure.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'm not familiar with him but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that someone called Angry Joe will never be (publicly) happy about something. I think that would be false advertising. I don't know, call me crazy.

 

[Sebine_91]

I'm not familiar with him but I'm going to out on a limb and say that someone called Angry Joe will never be (publicly) happy about something. I think that would be false advertising. I don't know, call me crazy.

I think fans being annoyed about something isn't really an issue. It's nigh on impossible to create something that all of a sci-fi fandom will love (which the people behind the Star Wars sequels learned) and so it's best to just ignore fandom I feel rather than pander to them. The fact that most Star Wars fans agree that The Mandalorian is great is nothing short of a miracle. I have seen valid criticisms of the writing of this season of Picard though and so it does stretch beyond standard fandom criticisms I feel.

I think my litmus test is always if I can see the joins as it were. If stuff sticks out so much it becomes distracting then my enjoyment lessens. Otherwise, I can have a fun time with most stuff. I mean, I can enjoy Batman vs Superman despite its flaws but would have a hard time sitting through Batman and Robin. Similarly, I thought Into Darkness had issues but it was a fun ride and I had a lot more fun watching it than I have the last two Picard episodes.

 

[gvn2fly]

A bit late, but who fucking cares about whether the bad guys are OK? They are an obstacle to be gotten past. Simple as that. If you feel a need to nurse-maid them, that's on you. The story will rightly leave them and you behind to get on to more interesting things.

The question was regarding the security personnel in the security room in the gala episode and how was it that no one ever figured out they were unconscious and how Jurati was able to go around after previously getting caught by security still in the room. If the answer is "who cares" no one checked on them and no one cared about Juarti after she went back to the party - ok that's fine, but a lot of people did bring these up as issues and I thought of them while watching as well. (My issue with these scenes was why was she handcuffed in the exact room she wanted to be in instead of being thrown out or provided to law enforcement). Viewers may not care about these things and that's fine, but to me these are things that prevent me from considering these episodes to be well written.

 

[Jack Wolfe]

A few minutes ago AngryJoeShow has just taken of his Star Trek uniform live on air off in sheer disgust.

He is a long term Star Trek fan with a huge knowledge of Star Trek and was very upset as the show has gone from looking good in the fist 2 episodes to what it has become.

What an utterly infantile display of nerd rage. I hope he was still wearing his Depends, or it might have been a further display of his shortcomings. Nobody cares. Simple as that, nobody cares. Is there footage of him yelling at clouds? That would be fun. And just as futile. Because no one cares at all.

 

[cooleddie74]

I take off my clothes every day on this board and nobody makes a big deal of it and pretends it's the end of the world.

Nor should they.

Yet.