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Spoilers TNG: Ship of the Line by Diane Carey Review Thread

Rate Ship of the Line

  • Outstanding

    Votes: 4 8.5%
  • Above Average

    Votes: 7 14.9%
  • Average

    Votes: 8 17.0%
  • Below Average

    Votes: 10 21.3%
  • Poor

    Votes: 18 38.3%

  • Total voters
    47
I've been tempted to read the book for years. Your review highlights the glaring flaws. I remember @Christopher pointing out that the Bozeman has a female crewmember in the episode but Carey asserts Bateson has a male-only bridge crew. And that the Typhon Expanse is an unexplored region in "Cause and Effect" but colonized and well-established in Ship of the Line.

I wonder, is it too cringey to enjoy as an Enterprise-E adventure, or worth dabbing into? (side note, I prefer TNG over TOS).
 
It's been a loooooong time since I read this one, but I loved Morgan Bateson's crew and the U.S.S. Bozeman flashbacks (even though as Christopher will point out as soon as he sees this thread, they're totally inconsistent with the 30 seconds of them we see in "Cause and Effect"), loved the idea of a border patrol ship that was armed to the teeth, armoured to hell and back, had a grappler instead of a tractor beam and even had flashing police lights. Carey is always great at flashing out memorable chunks of the Trekverse, ships and crews that aren't just cookie cutter generic Starfleet exploration ships. See also Red Sector and Dreadnought.

What I didn't like was Picard watching TOS episodes on the holodeck. They slowed things down to a crawl and did not fit the Picard character well. Although I do like the idea of it (this came long before "These Are the Voyages" stunk up the house with Riker watching ENT) I cannot imagine Picard watching Kirk on the holodeck and deciding to become more "Kirk like", although I suspect the idea was to explain his turning into a vest wearing action hero in First Contact.

As well as the Bozeman continuity issue, Carey also somehow mixed up the order of "Best of Both Worlds" and "Chains of Command" but for the purposes of the book I'm happy to pretend they happened the other way around, until the last page at least.
 
I remember @Christopher pointing out that the Bozeman has a female crewmember in the episode but Carey asserts Bateson has a male-only bridge crew.

In fact, there are two women on the Bozeman bridge at the end of "Cause and Effect"; in DTI: Watching the Clock I named them Parvana Whitcomb and Claudia Alisov.

Carey also portrays the Typhon Expanse as a settled part of the Federation along the Klingon border, when "Cause and Effect" states explicitly (multiple times, due to the time loop) that it's an uncharted sector eight decades later.
 
It's been a long time since I read the book about Morgan Bateson the story was okay .I remember I liked it when I read it a long time ago.
 
Since we generally prefer to have only one review thread per book, I have merged the two threads. I don't think the polls get merged in this instance, so anyone who voted in the new poll but didn't vote in the original poll will need to vote again. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Thank you to @tgiokdi for finding the original thread.
 
Since we generally prefer to have only one review thread per book, I have merged the two threads. I don't think the polls get merged in this instance, so anyone who voted in the new poll but didn't vote in the original poll will need to vote again. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Thank you to @tgiokdi for finding the original thread.

Yes, my thanks to the both of you. I promise, I did perform a search for all posts with “Diane Carey” in them and looked through the over a dozen pages of the results and never did see this existing review thread.

I was thinking that an index post (one of those stickied at the top of the board) with links to all of the book review threads would be a good idea. Has anyone ever tried something like that (or is such an index already here on the message board somewhere)?

—David Young
Brandon, Florida
 
What I didn't like was Picard watching TOS episodes on the holodeck. They slowed things down to a crawl and did not fit the Picard character well. Although I do like the idea of it (this came long before "These Are the Voyages" stunk up the house with Riker watching ENT) I cannot imagine Picard watching Kirk on the holodeck and deciding to become more "Kirk like", although I suspect the idea was to explain his turning into a vest wearing action hero in First Contact.

As well as the Bozeman continuity issue, Carey also somehow mixed up the order of "Best of Both Worlds" and "Chains of Command" but for the purposes of the book I'm happy to pretend they happened the other way around, until the last page at least.

Another thing that bothered me was the abrupt shift from Picard leaving the holodeck, now confident (and telling the merchant ship captain to arm his men, etc.) to Picard standing in front of Gul Madred. There was *nothing* about how Picard got into that room.

And also the complete disappearance of Dr. Crusher after that one scene with most of the Enterprise-D bridge crew where Picard tells them what all is about to happen, and also Worf (who wasn’t at that meeting but Picard says that he has contacted Captain Sisko at Deep Space Nine to borrow Worf for this mission) who gets absolutely zero speaking lines in this book (except for maybe his one line in the scene from Star Trek: First Contact over the comms, “Acknowledged”, or something like that).

Worf joins Picard and Gul Madred in Madred’s office/interrogation room. Then Picard, Crusher, and Worf all take the Cardassian transport down to where the Starfleet and other prisoners of war are defending themselves. But all we get are other people’s descriptions of them.

Which is really odd to me that Carey would write them as going with Picard as part of his plans (he even explains at one point why he’s taking Worf with him instead of Data) but then not use those two characters *at all* for the remainder of the book other than as set dressing basically.

I also have to admit that I did not like how Carey portrayed Picard in that meeting with his former bridge crew. Troi: “We’ve always been a family as well as an assignment . . .” The captain riveted Troi to her seat with a long stare. Picard: “We’re not a family, Counselor. Starfleet isn’t a social club. Our command staff is a close-knit unit of service who have been lucky enough to remain in each other’s sphere for many years. […]

Yes, he was right (the rest of what he says about them having to fulfill their duty and accept the assignments given to them). However, I couldn’t help but think about the discrepancy with how he answers Troi here with the last scene of them all together at the poker table at the end of “All Good Things…”


—David Young
Brandon, Florida
 
I promise, I did perform a search for all posts with “Diane Carey” in them and looked through the over a dozen pages of the results and never did see this existing review thread.

No worries. The search function can sometimes be wonky. :)

I was thinking that an index post (one of those stickied at the top of the board) with links to all of the book review threads would be a good idea. Has anyone ever tried something like that (or is such an index already here on the message board somewhere)?

Interesting idea! I don't think we have anything like that here currently, but you can basically get an index to the review threads by going to the TrekLit Review Threads ranking page set up by Sho. You can find that here:

http://www.eikehein.com/stuff/trekbbs/review_threads/

Each entry links back to the official review thread here. You can either do a find in your browser to find the one you're looking for, or you can sort the thread titles by clicking the header in the "review thread" column.

I had thought that the ranking list was broken, as for a while it wasn't pulling in new review threads. But I see now that the newest review threads are showing up there, so it looks to be working again! :D
 
Interesting idea! I don't think we have anything like that here currently, but you can basically get an index to the review threads by going to the TrekLit Review Threads ranking page set up by Sho. You can find that here:

http://www.eikehein.com/stuff/trekbbs/review_threads/

Each entry links back to the official review thread here. You can either do a find in your browser to find the one you're looking for, or you can sort the thread titles by clicking the header in the "review thread" column.

I had thought that the ranking list was broken, as for a while it wasn't pulling in new review threads. But I see now that the newest review threads are showing up there, so it looks to be working again! :D

Thanks! I was familiar with that but wasn’t sure where to find it. Is it in one of the sticky thread posts at the top of the board? If not, is that something that could be added?

Interesting enough, at the moment, Ship of the Line is the third worst in the cumulative ratings of the entire list (2.4, with 43 votes). Only TOS The Prometheus Design by Marshak and Culbreath (1.72, 25 votes) and DS9: Warped by Jeter (1.90, 20 votes) have worse ratings. The only other Diane Carey book on the list is her novelization for the Voyager episode “Flashback” (which has a respectable 4.2 rating based on 5 votes).

It seems a bit funny to me that there haven’t been review posts for here generally more popular books yet (Dreadnought!, Battlestations!, Final Frontier, Best Destiny, The Great Starship Race, First Frontier). Or any of the New Earth novels, or her Invasion! TOS novel.

—David Young
Brandon, Florida
 
I remember actually liking Warped fairly well at the time, because I'd been a KW Jeter fan for years and thought Warped was an interesting attempt at telling a Philip K. Dick-style novel in the Star Trek universe. I don't remember many people agreeing with me, though.
 
It seems a bit funny to me that there haven’t been review posts for here generally more popular books yet (Dreadnought!, Battlestations!, Final Frontier, Best Destiny, The Great Starship Race, First Frontier). Or any of the New Earth novels, or her Invasion! TOS novel.

For most of the life of the board, we've been kept pretty busy with new releases. I think it's been fairly recent that retro-review threads in the style of a new-release topic have become common.

It might be fun to have a bit of a TrekLit book-club or something for older novels. Maybe someone can start new review threads for whichever of the monthly 99¢ eBooks don't have them yet.
 
Another thing that bothered me was the abrupt shift from Picard leaving the holodeck, now confident (and telling the merchant ship captain to arm his men, etc.) to Picard standing in front of Gul Madred. There was *nothing* about how Picard got into that room.

I have long had the feeling that whole sections of Ship of the Line are (close to) an unedited first draft, for the litany of reasons you list below this. Things aren't developed, things don't add up, things don't make sense. Carey was writing three Star Trek novels a year at the time -- one was generally quite good, one was decently readable, and one was bad and rushed. In 1997, Ship of the Line was the rushed one.

I'd say that Ancient Blood was the "generally quite good" one of 1997, though it's also generally despised by fandom. But, line by line, it's clear this was the book that Carey labored over and was really passionate about. This book made me realize that what I really wanted to read from Carey was an "Age of Fighting Sail" novel. (I wondered, at the time, if the James L. Nelson fighting sail novels, published by Pocket at the time, were pseudonymous Carey novels, but, no, Nelson was not Carey.) Eventually, I got something close enough to that, her 2014 novel Banners. I'd happily read more, but I recall Dave Galanter telling me a few years ago that she's retired from writing.

I remember actually liking Warped fairly well at the time, because I'd been a KW Jeter fan for years and thought Warped was an interesting attempt at telling a Philip K. Dick-style novel in the Star Trek universe. I don't remember many people agreeing with me, though.

It definitely is. I've often compared it mentally to The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch. The only way Warped could have been more PKD was if Rom saved the day; PKD protagonists are often uninspiring businessmen in way over their heads.
 
I remember actually liking Warped fairly well at the time, because I'd been a KW Jeter fan for years and thought Warped was an interesting attempt at telling a Philip K. Dick-style novel in the Star Trek universe. I don't remember many people agreeing with me, though.

That's exactly what didn't work for me about it. It was PKD-ish in the way it treated reality as mutable, with holodeck illusions becoming ambiguously real without any scientific explanation, and with Kai Opaka somehow psychically communicating from the Gamma Quadrant without any justification for how that's possible. It just didn't fit Trek's rationalist universe where even the most fanciful events are always presumed to have a scientific explanation that makes sense by in-universe physics, either advanced alien powers/technology or the effect of some kind of exotic natural forces or particles or spacetime phenomena. I might have liked it better if it had been an original rather than a tie-in novel, but it just didn't work for me as a Star Trek story.

(Then again, I recently re-read Jeter's Alien Nation novel Cross of Blood, which I'd remembered as having the same "doesn't quite fit the universe" problem, and I discovered that its problems were far, far worse, that it was a largely incoherent and badly written story that served the show's characters quite poorly. So I don't know what I'd think of Warped if I re-read it now.)
 
After reading Warped, I got the impression that Jeter hadn't even watched a single episode of DS9 and was just given a character list, then proceeded to write his own story using those people completely out of character from how they were presented in the show. I realize Warped was written only a year or so after DS9 debuted, but there was more than enough info from the show to determine how the characters should act. I also felt that way about Pellegrino & Zebrowski's Dyson Sphere novel, but to a much lesser degree (but that novel had its own issues.)
 
If I recall correctly, Warped was Jeter's second DS9 novel, following Bloodletter. That one, as I recall, showed that Jeter had put a bit more thought into at least one aspect of the show's premise than the show's actual writers had. He recognized the need for the Federation/Starfleet to have some kind of regular presence on the Gamma side of the wormhole instead of waiting to be surprised by whatever popped out of the wormhole into the Alpha Quadrant.
 
If I recall correctly, Warped was Jeter's second DS9 novel, following Bloodletter. That one, as I recall, showed that Jeter had put a bit more thought into at least one aspect of the show's premise than the show's actual writers had. He recognized the need for the Federation/Starfleet to have some kind of regular presence on the Gamma side of the wormhole instead of waiting to be surprised by whatever popped out of the wormhole into the Alpha Quadrant.

But he totally misunderstood how the wormhole aliens' manifestations worked. He had them operating like the Q or Organians, say, appearing on the runabout disguised as familiar people. He didn't get that the visions Sisko, Dax, etc. saw in the wormhole were within their minds, not in physical reality, and that they came from their own memories as analogies for contextualizing the alien experience. So Sisko relived a memory of Locutus on the Saratoga viewscreen when he sensed their aggressive aspect, a memory of fishing at the pond with Jake when he sensed their inquisitive aspect, etc. The aliens didn't choose the images; they just followed Sisko's mind where it led them and tried to understand the memories he showed them.

Anyway, the show did eventually deal with the "presence on the Gamma side" with the relay station they put up in "Destiny," though it took them until the third season.
 
Thanks! I was familiar with that but wasn’t sure where to find it. Is it in one of the sticky thread posts at the top of the board? If not, is that something that could be added?

Thank you for the suggestion! I'll take a look at the threads that are there and figure out the best place for it. I don't really want to add a brand-new pinned thread, since we have so many of them up there already.

Interesting enough, at the moment, Ship of the Line is the third worst in the cumulative ratings of the entire list (2.4, with 43 votes). Only TOS The Prometheus Design by Marshak and Culbreath (1.72, 25 votes) and DS9: Warped by Jeter (1.90, 20 votes) have worse ratings.

Then all is as it should be. ;)

Looking at the other end of the list... I can't really argue with the top ones, either. Although it looks like I should move Rogue Elements to the top of my reading pile--it's apparently the third-highest rated book out of all of our reviews!

It seems a bit funny to me that there haven’t been review posts for here generally more popular books yet (Dreadnought!, Battlestations!, Final Frontier, Best Destiny, The Great Starship Race, First Frontier). Or any of the New Earth novels, or her Invasion! TOS novel.

Not terribly surprising, as the board didn't exist when these came out, so most people had probably already read them when the board launched, and as @David cgc mentioned, most of the reviews have been around new releases.

Also, under older versions of the board software, old threads sometimes had to be pruned for space. So even if someone had set up a review thread for, say, Best Destiny in 2001 or something, it would be lost to the sands of time by now.
 
Now I've not read the book, but could this not be explained that the women we saw in CandE were not what we would generally consider "Bridge crew" (ie senior officers) but just crew who were on the Bridge at that point?

In fact, there are two women on the Bozeman bridge at the end of "Cause and Effect"; in DTI: Watching the Clock I named them Parvana Whitcomb and Claudia Alisov.

Carey also portrays the Typhon Expanse as a settled part of the Federation along the Klingon border, when "Cause and Effect" states explicitly (multiple times, due to the time loop) that it's an uncharted sector eight decades later.
 
Now I've not read the book, but could this not be explained that the women we saw in CandE were not what we would generally consider "Bridge crew" (ie senior officers) but just crew who were on the Bridge at that point?
Now that you mention this, in Lower Decks Mariner and Boimler are explicitely established to have bridge duty and are seen there in multiple episodes, but when Shaxs get resurrected they both explain that away with "bridge crew always comes back", as if they aren't bridge crew. Mariner explicitely says "we're lower decks, we don't get to know everything bridge crew does"
 
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