Considering that a ship doing a slingshot for time travel most probably, from what we see, reaches Warp 10 for a short moment, why didn't Kirk and his crew as well as Picard and his friends eventually end up as Salamanders?
Spoilers What prevents that people on a ship during a slingshot maneuver become Salamanders?
- Thread starter Unimatrix Q
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Plot Armor & Common Sense =D
The TOS slingshot maneuver already starts to show reversing of time before they hit Infinite warp speed so the time travel mechanics are probably negating any of the salamander effects that happen if traveling at Infinite warp speed in normal space-time. For all we know, all the *failed* attempts at time travel using this method resulted in no repeated attempts because the crew were salamandered
Different Warp Scale in TOS is main difference. The sling shot never indicated Warp 10 or even Infinite Warp Speed, rather it was only given as "off scale". The other component to time travel is a gravity well to fly into and out of at off scale warp speed.
Other old warp scale references: During LTBYLBF, the Enterprise ran in circles at Warp 10, and let's not forget Nomad, By Any Other Name and That Which Survives higher speeds over Warp 10.
That's a great question. Exposure to chroniton particles during the slingshot manuever protects against salamanderfication.
Why would it be Warp 10?
Yeah I think the only time anything's ever gone Warp 10 is in Threshold.
Yes in that TOS used a different warp scale but the gravity well requirement might depend on how strong it is.
"Tomorrow is Yesterday" starts with the Enterprise caught in the strong gravity well of a black star and pulling away slingshot it backwards in time but perhaps the Sun's gravity well is not strong enough which required using the Sun's magnetism instead to generate the necessary speed later in the episode:
KIRK: Captain 's log Stardate 3113.2. We were en-route to Starbase 9 for resupply when a black star of high gravitational attraction began to drag us toward it. It required all warp power in reverse to pull us away from the star. But, like snapping a rubber band, the breakaway sent us plunging through space, out of control, to stop here, wherever we are.
...
SPOCK: Mister Scott and I both agree that the only possible solution is the slingshot effect, like the one that put us here. My computations indicate that if we fly toward the sun, seek out its magnetic attraction, then pull away at full power, the whiplash will propel us into another time warp.
...
SPOCK: Mister Scott and I both agree that the only possible solution is the slingshot effect, like the one that put us here. My computations indicate that if we fly toward the sun, seek out its magnetic attraction, then pull away at full power, the whiplash will propel us into another time warp.
in the TOS Movie "The Voyage Home" it appears to be the same idea but the details have been left out on whether it is the gravity well or magnetic attraction of the Sun is used to generate the speed. The Sun's gravity is mentioned as a hazard that could cause them to crash into it though.
McCOY: Sure, slingshot around the sun. If you pick up enough speed you're in time warp. If you don't, you fry.
...
SPOCK: Not with this equipment. I have had to program some of the variables from memory.
KIRK: What are some of the variables?
SPOCK: Availability of fuel components, mass of the vessel through a time continuum, and the probable location of humpback whales, in this case, the Pacific basin.
...
KIRK: Can we make breakaway speed?
SPOCK: Hardly, Admiral, I cannot even guarantee we will escape the sun's gravity. I shall attempt to compensate by altering our trajectory.
...
SPOCK: Not with this equipment. I have had to program some of the variables from memory.
KIRK: What are some of the variables?
SPOCK: Availability of fuel components, mass of the vessel through a time continuum, and the probable location of humpback whales, in this case, the Pacific basin.
...
KIRK: Can we make breakaway speed?
SPOCK: Hardly, Admiral, I cannot even guarantee we will escape the sun's gravity. I shall attempt to compensate by altering our trajectory.
"Assignment: Earth" suggests "slingshot" is synonymous as "breakaway" since both are part of previous time travel dialogue but curiously "light speed" is also part of it.
KIRK: Captain's log. Using the light speed breakaway factor, the Enterprise has moved back through time to the twentieth century.
And the non-slingshot/breakaway method from "The Naked Time" is to use brute force where engines imploding accelerate the ship to the necessary speed for time travel. Presumably going faster than possible in normal space you are going to arrive before you started.
SPOCK: Obviously, we were successful. The engines imploded.
SULU: Captain, my velocity gauge is off the scale.
SPOCK: Engine power went off the scale as well. We're now traveling faster than is possible for normal space.
KIRK: Checked elapsed time, Mister Sulu.
SULU: My chronometer's running backwards, sir.
KIRK: Time warp. We're going backward in time. Helm, begin reversing power. Slowly.
SULU: Captain, my velocity gauge is off the scale.
SPOCK: Engine power went off the scale as well. We're now traveling faster than is possible for normal space.
KIRK: Checked elapsed time, Mister Sulu.
SULU: My chronometer's running backwards, sir.
KIRK: Time warp. We're going backward in time. Helm, begin reversing power. Slowly.
It's probably from "Time Squared" (TNG Warp Scale)
PICARD: What force or phenomenon could cause the shuttle to be thrown back in time?
RIKER: None that we've encountered. In theory, accelerating beyond Warp 10.
PICARD: Using the gravitational pull of a star to slingshot back in time. Is that what happened here?
Depending on how you interpret the dialogue, this could mean that a gravity pull of a star is what will accelerate you beyond TNG's Warp 10 to slingshot back in time or that they are two separate methods. RIKER: None that we've encountered. In theory, accelerating beyond Warp 10.
PICARD: Using the gravitational pull of a star to slingshot back in time. Is that what happened here?
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I would have to regard it as two separate methods, since the TNG crew are unfamiliar with it.Depending on how you interpret the dialogue, this could mean that a gravity pull of a star is what will accelerate you beyond TNG's Warp 10 to slingshot back in time or that they are two separate methods.
As others noted, Warp 10 on the TOS scale is much lower vs TNG scale.
In 'Threshold', travelling at 'infinite velocity' allowed Paris and his shuttle to occupy every point in the whole universe simultaneously (that's a rather mind boggling number of space phenomena and anomalies that SF never encountered before - any number of them could have interacted with Paris physiology during the TW flight and pushed his genetic mutations into an overload - one that leads to a salamander incidentally - in fact, I'd dare say Paris was exposed to a 'universal soup' of anomalies and phenomena SF never encountered at the same time that affected his phsiology like that).
When you perform a slingshot maneuver, you don't actually get to Warp 10 (aka, 'infinite velocity')... you have to achieve high Warp speed it seems, yes, but not 'infinite velocity' to ge the slingshot effect... therefore, the crews performing slingshot maneuver wouldn't be occupying every point in the universe at the same time, therefore avoiding what happened to Paris (and Janeway).
Since no TOS ship could reach TNG warp 10, it seems you can travel through time with a slingshot maneuver.
It is probable that the engines imploding in "The Naked Time" accelerated the TOS Enterprise past TNG's Warp 10 aka Infinite Warp Speed.
Yes in that TOS used a different warp scale but the gravity well requirement might depend on how strong it is.
"Tomorrow is Yesterday" starts with the Enterprise caught in the strong gravity well of a black star and pulling away slingshot it backwards in time but perhaps the Sun's gravity well is not strong enough which required using the Sun's magnetism instead to generate the necessary speed later in the episode:
KIRK: Captain 's log Stardate 3113.2. We were en-route to Starbase 9 for resupply when a black star of high gravitational attraction began to drag us toward it. It required all warp power in reverse to pull us away from the star. But, like snapping a rubber band, the breakaway sent us plunging through space, out of control, to stop here, wherever we are.
...
SPOCK: Mister Scott and I both agree that the only possible solution is the slingshot effect, like the one that put us here. My computations indicate that if we fly toward the sun, seek out its magnetic attraction, then pull away at full power, the whiplash will propel us into another time warp.
in the TOS Movie "The Voyage Home" it appears to be the same idea but the details have been left out on whether it is the gravity well or magnetic attraction of the Sun is used to generate the speed. The Sun's gravity is mentioned as a hazard that could cause them to crash into it though.
McCOY: Sure, slingshot around the sun. If you pick up enough speed you're in time warp. If you don't, you fry.
...
SPOCK: Not with this equipment. I have had to program some of the variables from memory.
KIRK: What are some of the variables?
SPOCK: Availability of fuel components, mass of the vessel through a time continuum, and the probable location of humpback whales, in this case, the Pacific basin.
...
KIRK: Can we make breakaway speed?
SPOCK: Hardly, Admiral, I cannot even guarantee we will escape the sun's gravity. I shall attempt to compensate by altering our trajectory.
"Assignment: Earth" suggests "slingshot" is synonymous as "breakaway" since both are part of previous time travel dialogue but curiously "light speed" is also part of it.
KIRK: Captain's log. Using the light speed breakaway factor, the Enterprise has moved back through time to the twentieth century.
And the non-slingshot/breakaway method from "The Naked Time" is to use brute force where engines imploding accelerate the ship to the necessary speed for time travel. Presumably going faster than possible in normal space you are going to arrive before you started.
SPOCK: Obviously, we were successful. The engines imploded.
SULU: Captain, my velocity gauge is off the scale.
SPOCK: Engine power went off the scale as well. We're now traveling faster than is possible for normal space.
KIRK: Checked elapsed time, Mister Sulu.
SULU: My chronometer's running backwards, sir.
KIRK: Time warp. We're going backward in time. Helm, begin reversing power. Slowly.
It's probably from "Time Squared" (TNG Warp Scale)
PICARD: What force or phenomenon could cause the shuttle to be thrown back in time?Depending on how you interpret the dialogue, this could mean that a gravity pull of a star is what will accelerate you beyond TNG's Warp 10 to slingshot back in time or that they are two separate methods.
RIKER: None that we've encountered. In theory, accelerating beyond Warp 10.
PICARD: Using the gravitational pull of a star to slingshot back in time. Is that what happened here?
I had more the impression that Jean Luc was talking about how to reach Warp 10 for time travel, when he mentioned the slingshot method to Riker.
I tend to ignore the events of Threshold. In general some of Voyager's writing was fairly freaking terrible so I selectively de-canonize parts of it.
If you must -- perhaps it wasn't warp ten/exceeding warp 10 that caused the salamanderization but instead some previously unknown dimensional shift or unique side effect of the methods/technology they were using. Or the stellar magnetic fields in a slingshot protect against chronometric handwavum. Or Kirk and Friends devised some kind of chronometric shielding and "conveniently" withheld that piece of the puzzle to keep everyone from using slingshots to alter time... I mean Spock did cover up the loss of an entire advanced propulsion system without so much as blinking.
But seriously -- the folks writing for Voyager were by and large hacks who had very little investment in the show, so something as dumb as "salamander mutation" as a side effect of traveling warp 10 is just plain bad writing... best ignored unless it comes up in dialog again.
If you must -- perhaps it wasn't warp ten/exceeding warp 10 that caused the salamanderization but instead some previously unknown dimensional shift or unique side effect of the methods/technology they were using. Or the stellar magnetic fields in a slingshot protect against chronometric handwavum. Or Kirk and Friends devised some kind of chronometric shielding and "conveniently" withheld that piece of the puzzle to keep everyone from using slingshots to alter time... I mean Spock did cover up the loss of an entire advanced propulsion system without so much as blinking.
But seriously -- the folks writing for Voyager were by and large hacks who had very little investment in the show, so something as dumb as "salamander mutation" as a side effect of traveling warp 10 is just plain bad writing... best ignored unless it comes up in dialog again.
In my thread on reddit, at the Daystrom Institute, about this issue, someone had a great idea that might explain the salamanderfication and why it doesn't happen during the slingshot:
"They don't say anything about the slingshot manouver breaking the transwarp barrier. In fact in Threshold they say Paris was the first person to break the barrier which wouldn't be true if Kirk had already done it a few times. So the easiest answer is just that the slingshot is fast but not that fast.
However, if we go on the assumption that they did break the warp 10 barrier it may be that avoiding a time jump was what caused Paris' problems. Breaking the barrier might build up some kind of temporal energy which will naturally cause an uncontrolled time blast (Kirk's first accidental trip back in time), which can be turned into a controlled blast (Spock or the Queen's extremely precisely calculated trips), but cannot be suppressed completely and will just cause other unexpected effects if you try (Threshold and Paris' million years of evolution in a day).
Now that I think of it, temporal effects might make Threshold and it's "accellerated evolution" make a bit more sense. Because as complaints have been made about this episode for years, evolution doesn't really work that way. Evolution doesn't just pick an endgoal like "salamanders" and work towards it, it's an effect of survival being influenced by conditions in the surrounding environment. Conditions on Earth over the next million years may indeed cause humans to eventually evolve into chill, salamander-like beings. But Paris was not on Earth while this was happening. If anything he should have evolved into a being that was ideally suited to live in Voyager. But, consider that he says that when he broke the barrier he was everywhere at once. What if he was also every when at once? This could explain why his DNA was reacting to a million years of conditions that humanity would be evolving through."
https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromIn...ents_that_people_on_a_ship_during_a/?sort=new
I would have to revisit the episodes but I thought they did travel that fast twice with outside help.
For all we know, all the *failed* attempts at time travel using this method resulted in no repeated attempts because the crew were salamandered
That’s still my headcanon for what happened to Captain Styles and movie-era transwarp drive.
They exceeded Warp 10 on the TOS scale. On the TNG scale, that was high Warp 9.something but not Warp 10.
The whole slingshot thing doesn't make too much sense as escaping the sun's gravity well would just need Warp 1, since LIGHT can escape it. Kirk even calls it "the lightspeed breakaway manoeuvre"!
Yes in our space-time, but in the subspace where you travel FTL, maybe not with Trek physics.
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