Garak, Dukat, Winn
- Thread starter Whizkid
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Would disagree about Dukat entirely. Although he did end as sort of a slimy cartoony bad guy in season 7, Dukat in the rest of the series is painted as quite a complex character with obvious failings as well as virtues and even the ability to be tactful, empathetic and loyal. He is a man who was in constant battle with himself but eventually his ego and lust for power overroad any positive character traits that could have potentially led him down a different path. DS9 was great partly because the semi serialized format allowed for consequences of characters' decisions be felt later on in the season or show. Its honestly hard to think of a better Trek villain than Dukat. Only Kahn and Q could ever be considered on the same level as individual antagonists in all of the lore.
True, it all depends on what you're comparing them to - if it's cartoony, superhero type villains, by contrast Dukat has a degree of shading and nuance. Vulnerability is shown in all three characters.
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I know Andorians have 4, and Denobulons have a bunch.
I don't disagree that he was a complex character until Season 2, he was. But considering his part in the Bajoran genocide, he already was beyond redemption or sympathy from the very get-go, whether his negative sides would have "overwritten" his less negative qualities or not.
And in this context it's also irrelevant whether he thought (or convinced himself to think) that his actions were justified, that alone doesn't entitle someone to redemption.
But yes, I would call him the best, most complex villain in Trek.
The occupation wasn't explicitly genocidal, and its obvious it was not genocidal because billions of Bajorians still exist. In Trek eliminating or depopulating a planet's native population could be accomplished in a myriad of ways much cheaper and cleaner than a full blown decades long occupation.
That being said the conquest of Bajor did involve forced labor, removal of most basic rights, sexual exploitation, and cultural overwrite of the planet among other things and could not be defined as morally correct in any respect.
What the Cardassians did was terrible and awful but not altogether unforgivable as even the Bajoran government had limited relations with their old oppressors even if they were understandably taciturn. DS9 is partly about coming to terms with relationships, consequences, morality, regrets and even redemption in some cases. And even if a villain like Dukat cannot earn redemption from personal growth, that doesn't mean that other individual Cardassians or the Cardassian empire as a whole cannot be redeemed given enough reflection and reform leading to cultural growth. To dismiss the occupation as some unforgivable genocidal slaughter misses a main point of Deep Space Nines exploration of morality within the trek universe and isn't really supported by the series canon.
Oh I didn't mean to imply that the Cardassians as a culture or a species are irredeemable because of the Occupation (not sure where you think I said that?), just Dukat as an individual, for being at the head of it for so long and committing so many brutal acts through his choices. There's probably a number of other Cardassian individuals who are just as guilty as Dukat.
But DS9 did a good job in showing us the Cardassians as a complex (for Trek) species with a number of moral or simply neutral, ordinary individuals among its ranks, they are not to blame for what people like Dukat did.
As for the genocide, yeah there might not have been an active genocide, but from watching DS9 I got the impression that genocide happened as a by-product of the Occupation and the fight between the Cardassians and the Bajoran resistance.
DS9 had such a rich tapestry of recurring characters that were part of the very fabric of the show. Gul Dukat, Winn, Garak, and a whole host of other characters' complexity is a testament to the quality of the show and its writing.
One of the best descriptions of Cardassians was from a piece of Trek Lit narrated by Lwaxana Troi: "Watching a Cardassian weep at the death of his child's pet wompet, you can't imagine him cutting down a foe without blinking. But he will." That's the paradoxical nature of the Cardassians as a race: deeply emotional, devoted to family, but capable of doing things that would horrify any decent human.
One wonders if the aftermath of the Dominion genocide changed their toxic culture... for better or for worse. I think either was possible.
One wonders if the aftermath of the Dominion genocide changed their toxic culture... for better or for worse. I think either was possible.
I like to be an optimist, and because of the history of my own country I prefer to think they changed for the better and eventually (in several decades time) joined the Federation. Plus, as we see in DS9 there were at least some Cardassians who were against the way their empire was run.
Though on the other side, the Cardassians existed in their current state for a *lot* longer than the 12 years of Nazi Germany, and even those twelve years left long-lasting traces, so whether their downfall in the Dominion War is enough to create a long-lasting change is anybody's guess.
Dukat was about to shoot his own daughter, when Kira intervened. Not exactly devoted to family.
I guess Natima Lang, a professor of ethics in the Cardassian underground, represents some hope for the species.
Because he had a wife and seven children on Cardassia, and their lives would be (and indeed were) devastated if Ziyal's existence was revealed. That he was willing to do such a horrific thing was par for the course for a Cardassian, as was the fact that he couldn't go through with it.
Just to show the decline of the compelling storytelling, Ziyal was predictably set to be killed right from the start. Every element forcefully implanted, like Garak having an affair with her, was meant to cause distress for Dukat; you know, soap opera shit which was so beneath the series. When Michael Pillar was fully running DS9 during the 1st 3 seasons, or better yet the first two and half seasons, a plot point couldn't just easily be eliminated like being shot (DAMAR killing her off) or flying away to the next thing; the issue had to be faced and it will grow and it had to be dealt with and find a compromise. The element would find a foundation within the confines of the DS9 world which was what made it so beautiful.
How interesting it would be to have any one of Dukat's sons or his wife, or wives, be introduce to see how complex having Ziyal around could be? How bringing her to the fold could trigger more conflict between Cardassia and Bajor and are there more half breeds like her - tangled within the confines of these races' political yarn? These were conflicts DS9 was more than bold to face but when the GOOD OL' War seasons was filling the thirsts of "Star Wars" hungry declining Trek viewers, it neglected the complexities the series grew its roots from. The whole Ziyal subplot was bullsh*t, a comic bookie, adolescent storyline to castrate an extraordinary, complex character into a one dimensional bore.
How interesting it would be to have any one of Dukat's sons or his wife, or wives, be introduce to see how complex having Ziyal around could be? How bringing her to the fold could trigger more conflict between Cardassia and Bajor and are there more half breeds like her - tangled within the confines of these races' political yarn? These were conflicts DS9 was more than bold to face but when the GOOD OL' War seasons was filling the thirsts of "Star Wars" hungry declining Trek viewers, it neglected the complexities the series grew its roots from. The whole Ziyal subplot was bullsh*t, a comic bookie, adolescent storyline to castrate an extraordinary, complex character into a one dimensional bore.
His daughter of a woman who was not his wife. That matters a great deal to Cardassia. By shooting Ziyal he would have been protecting his real family from scandal.
The Cardassians reminded me of the British Empire during the occupation of Scotland and Ireland; they were brutal in the treatment of the people and they were very arrogant. Not everything tragedy has to equate to the Nazis; its really cliché comparison to anything that was wrong.
Actually, Dearie, if you look at my post you might see that I compared Cardassia to Nazi German not due to their treatment of Bajor, but to the way their government controls their own culture and population (their courts, the public televising of things, government approved literature and such) and wondered whether this can get better after the Dominion War considering that they have existed in that state far longer than, for example Nazi Germany.
While it is true that other dictatorships also employed those tools, Nazi Germany is the one that comes to my mind the quickest, because I am German.
Once again, Context is for Kings
I stand corrected.
Lynx,
you know, while the Dominion were excellent, Dukat (Marc Alaimo) even more so, I cannot find a more chilling statement than: "'I'm Locutus of Borg. Resistance is futile. Your life, as it has been, is over..."
You're absolutely right, even if I still find villains like Dukat, The Female Changeling, Khan and even Armus more scaring and terrifying than The Borg.
I also have to admit that The Best Of Both Worlds is an excellent episode and the high point of The Borg. Up to that, they were a terrifying enemy.
But after being defeated in that episode, after being humanized and becoming "velour villains" by the introduction of characters like Hugh and The Borg Queen, they lost their magic. At least for me.
As I see it, the problem with introducing a "super enemy" which is very scaring and almost invincible is that sooner or later, the writers come to a situation where the "good guys" have to defeat that enemy in order for the "good side" to win.
To do that, the "good guys" have to come up with something superb which make them defeat the scaring almost invincible enemy. And the scarier and more powerful the enemy is, the stronger the "antidote" has to be.
And when this happens, the scary, powerful and almost invincible enemy loses its magic. It can still be a fearful, scaring enemy but it will never be as scaring and fearful as it was before the "good guys" managed to defeat it.
Therefore I actually prefer villains and enemies who are not "super enemies" but people or creatures with flaws but cunning, deceptive and mean, just like the Cardassians and the Dominion was.
As for enemies, the most ruthless enemies I've seen in an SF-series were a species called "Frogs" in the German series "Raumpatrouille" (Space Patrol) from the 60's, a series which was aired for the first time in Germany three months before TOS started in the US and became very popular in Europe though it only lasted for seven episodes.
The "Frogs" weren't really frogs, but green-shimmering sort of energy beings or gaseous creatures. laser weapons didn't hurt them but oxygen killed them. That was discovered in the first episode when the crew of the Orion VII under command of Cliff McLane arrived to a space station, finding the crew there dead, they had actually died where they stood or sat and become like statues. They also discovered that the air supply was destroyed. When they encountered a "frog" they fired their lase guns but the rays went right through the creature. However they figured aout that oxygen was lethal to those beings and later on blasted an oxygen tube which killed the "frogs" on the station.
And those beings were downright evil.
In the series, they tried to destroy Earth by sending a burning planet to collide with Earth. They also used a long-distance beam to make ship commanders defect and inht elast episode they captured Earth's Chief Of Security and brainwashed him to try to seize power on Earth and let the "frogs" invade and take over. According to the book in which the story of this TV-episode is told, when the Earth forces had managed to stop the invasion and driven the "Frogs" out of the solar system, the Earth authorities send a message to the flying "Frogs": "We want to negotiate. We want contact."
The "Frogs" replied. "We don't want contact. We hate you!"
Now that's what I call a mean, vicious and fearful enemy!
Unfortunately the "Frogs" never returned, not in any series or in the books which continued to be released years after the series ended.
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