Garak, Dukat, Winn

[Whizkid]

Basically, Weyoun was Kenny McCormick, but he didn't die nearly as much. I think the funniest death was Weyoun 7. Never make Worf mad. You could be charged as an accessory to your own murder.

As for the complexity of characters, Winn Adami is the type of person that you're warned about in Sunday School and at the same time, you might see that same person in the church, praised for how "strong" she is.

Skrain Dukat: He was the type of villain you love to hate, because he makes you almost trust him. And let's face it, in Season 4, he seemed something like an anti-hero after he got Ziyal and decided to take care of her. And then he showed his true colors. And we hated him again. And then he lost Ziyal and we thought we'd seen him become a pitiable creature. And then his true hatred came out. And we found out that, among other things, Nerys and Ziyal were essentially stepsisters, which made Dukat's interest in Kira even creepier. He's the pervy stepfather who also happens to be worse than Hitler. Honestly, selling his soul to the Bajoran equivalent of the devil works for what he truly becomes.

Elim Garak: I love how, over seven seasons, we did get to see him as... I'm not sure if maverick is the right word, or anti-hero or chaotic something. But we learned about him. He was a spy and was conflicted about the war. He was the illegitimate son of the head of his homeworld's spy agency and was exiled. Garak is amoral and fascinating.

@Peach Wookiee
Quite apart from the fact that you are among the few people I know who seem to remember that Dukat's first name is not "Gul" (which is a Title) but Skrain, I obey your injunction most of all: "Never make Worf mad."

Only one question: "worse than Hitler?"

 

[Lynx]

Hahahah! Your mother's aunt?: "a good villain as such?" What a brilliant description! (Just so long as she's not within earshot.

The old lady who looked like Winn is dead since many years so no risk that she is within earshot. She also had a good sense of humor so she would probably have laughed at the similarity in looks.

That I regard Winn a good villain had nothing to do with the fact that she looked like my mother's aunt but it made watching Winn more funny. Otherwise I think that she deserves a place among the interesting villains of DS9.

As for similar looks, I seem to have met a lot of Star trek characters ( or at least people who look like certain Star trek characters) during the years so I might take it up in some post in the near future, most likely on the general forum since it contains characters from TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY.

As for DS9, I had an aunt (a sister to my father) who looked like the Skreean leader Haanek, I currently work at a place where Admiral Leyton ( or art least a lookalike) works. Before that I worked together with bajoran Minister Jaro Essa for two years at another place, had Wadi leader Falow as neighbor and once I dated a girl who looked like Morn's "wife" Larell.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I like Garak because he was exciting from start to end, you never know if he was a "good guy" or a "bad guy".
Dukat was a great villain, one of the best in Star Trek and the Cardassians were the ebst villains in Star Trek, mostly because they were so complex.

They had no super-powers och super-technology like the over-rated Borg. They were just cunning and calculating, you could never know if they were enemies or friends. Both Garak and Dukat are good examples of that. There were times where I wondered if garak should join the bad side and there were times when I actually wondered if Dukat would become a "good character" in the long run.

Garak, fortunately, was consistent of the embodiment of a Cardassian; everything he ever done - even when he was exiled - was always for the King and Country of Cardassia. Unfortunately Dukat had to be altered in being a one dimensional demento, you know, predictable twirling mustache villain just be a simp to the Changelings. I wish that bullsh*t virus the showrunners conjured up to kill Odo and his lame people was engineered by the Cardassians - architect by Dukat to take over that laughable cartoon called the Dominion.

 

[Lynx]

Garak, fortunately, was consistent of the embodiment of a Cardassian; everything he ever done - even when he was exiled - was always for the King and Country of Cardassia. Unfortunately Dukat had to be altered in being a one dimensional demento, you know, predictable twirling mustache villain just be a simp to the Changelings. I wish that bullsh*t virus the showrunners conjured up to kill Odo and his lame people was engineered by the Cardassians - architect by Dukat to take over that laughable cartoon called the Dominion.

I see your point about Dukat and The Dominion. Unfortunately I have to disagree with some of it.

Personally, I find The Dominion a much better enemy than the over-rated Borg who, as I see it were finished when Hugh amnd later on the Borg Queen showed up.

The Dominion weren't as good villains as the Cardassians but still enough powerful and ruthless to be good villains. I must give The Female Changeling some credit as villain here. I really hated her, her ruthlessness and no qualms at all about genocide. I was actually dissapointed that Garak or anyone else didn't blast her in the end episode. I mean, a character which creates such emotions in a viewer is a good character.

Not to mention Weyoun (or maybe more correctly The Weyouns). I actually liked him (them?) as villain (villains). There was something with him whoich made me uncertain if I should dislike him or laugh at him. Ah, my twisted humor! Sometimes I like those characters who are so obnoxious that they are actually funny. Harris Yulin, who did an excellent job in playing the Cardassian Aamin Marritza played a character named Deek Peasley in a western series called Macahan Family in the 70:s. That character was so obnoxious, slimy and cunning that he actually was funny sometimes and I have a soft spot for such characters.

I know that we have somewhat different opinions about Dukat, especially that one when he was a cult leader on Empok Nor. I can give you some points when it comes to Dukat's development in the later part of the series, he was better as a powerful Cardassian Gul and as I wrote before, when we never really knew if he was friend or foe or what he was.

I can agree about that virus. It would have made sense if Dukat would have come up with that and it would have redeemed Dukat in some ways. To be honest, I wasn't that fond of the whole Pah-Wraith concept even if I actually think that Dukat and Winn were a good team as villains now and then.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

@Peach Wookiee
Quite apart from the fact that you are among the few people I know who seem to remember that Dukat's first name is not "Gul" (which is a Title) but Skrain, I obey your injunction most of all: "Never make Worf mad."

Only one question: "worse than Hitler?"

As far as I know, Hitler wasn't anybody's pervert stepfather. Dukat also has a bigger body count, was happy to see the galaxy burn and willingly sold his soul to the devil. That's why Skrain Dukat, in my view, is worse than Hitler.

Apparently, Dukat and Gul Macet are related.

 

[Legate Duhmar]

Dukat definitely took the longest and most convoluted journey of development. From station prefect to Cardassian officer to underling to freedom fighter to negotiator and leader of his people to madman to demon priest... yeah.

In terms of steps of development, Nog isn't far behind him. Worth adding to your list, maybe?

Here here on Nog being added to the list. His arc is very detailed and satisfying. I would also add Worf to the list, the amount of episodes devoted to Worfs personal life are numerous and span 2 series.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Worf's inclusion on DS9 was "Ratings Bait" and nothing else; I didn't see any of his particular episodes made him a stronger character but instead the reverse. He should've had a limited run on the series because the cast was already jam packed, the Klingons in the mix was treading very old waters once more and I didn't see anything new which was never as compelling as the Cardassian/ Bajoran conflict. Having the Klingons in the show made the Star Trek universe appeared much smaller where DS9 originally set up the series to be at the edge the final frontier where they were farther away from the classic characters we knew from TOS and TNG. There would be spotted at times but they're moving on to what's out there. It's too bad the producers lost faith in their own premise.

Before Worf and the other redundant material DS9 was killing it with some of the most compelling storytelling in Star Trek history. What a waste.

 

[Whizkid]

I see your point about Dukat and The Dominion. Unfortunately I have to disagree with some of it.

Personally, I find The Dominion a much better enemy than the over-rated Borg who, as I see it were finished when Hugh amnd later on the Borg Queen showed up.

The Dominion weren't as good villains as the Cardassians but still enough powerful and ruthless to be good villains. I must give The Female Changeling some credit as villain here. I really hated her, her ruthlessness and no qualms at all about genocide. I was actually dissapointed that Garak or anyone else didn't blast her in the end episode. I mean, a character which creates such emotions in a viewer is a good character.

Not to mention Weyoun (or maybe more correctly The Weyouns). I actually liked him (them?) as villain (villains). There was something with him whoich made me uncertain if I should dislike him or laugh at him. Ah, my twisted humor! Sometimes I like those characters who are so obnoxious that they are actually funny. Harris Yulin, who did an excellent job in playing the Cardassian Aamin Marritza played a character named Deek Peasley in a western series called Macahan Family in the 70:s. That character was so obnoxious, slimy and cunning that he actually was funny sometimes and I have a soft spot for such characters.

I know that we have somewhat different opinions about Dukat, especially that one when he was a cult leader on Empok Nor. I can give you some points when it comes to Dukat's development in the later part of the series, he was better as a powerful Cardassian Gul and as I wrote before, when we never really knew if he was friend or foe or what he was.

I can agree about that virus. It would have made sense if Dukat would have come up with that and it would have redeemed Dukat in some ways. To be honest, I wasn't that fond of the whole Pah-Wraith concept even if I actually think that Dukat and Winn were a good team as villains now and then.

Oh come on @Lynx! (Though I agree with most of your points)

I LOVE LOVE LOVE Dukat! Marc Alaimo was just brilliant. But the Borg was an enemy never found.

Best. Enemy. Ever. Not Dukat, not Kai Winn. Not whatever William Shatner fought on that planet.

 

[dupersuper]

As far as I know, Hitler wasn't anybody's pervert stepfather.

Stepfather?

 

[kkt]

Stepfather?

Kira Nerys's mother was with Dukat after she was with Kira's father, which I guess makes Dukat Kira's stepfather.

 

[dupersuper]

Kira Nerys's mother was with Dukat after she was with Kira's father, which I guess makes Dukat Kira's stepfather.

Except they were never married...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I wouldn't say they're more fleshed out so much as they're most morally complex. Two villains masquerading as decent, one decent person masquerading as a villain.

 

[Lynx]

Oh come on @Lynx! (Though I agree with most of your points)

I LOVE LOVE LOVE Dukat! Marc Alaimo was just brilliant. But the Borg was an enemy never found.

Best. Enemy. Ever. Not Dukat, not Kai Winn. Not whatever William Shatner fought on that planet.

Sorry, I have to disagree here.
The Borg were finished after "Best Of Both Worlds" and especially after Hugh and The Borg Queen entered the arena.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Except they were never married...

Given how long they were together, it could be considered a common law arrangement.

 

[kkt]

Dupersuper's right... they couldn't be married. Dukat was still married to his Cardassian wife until after adult Ziyal was found, Kira's mom was still married to Kira's dad until he died.

So there'd be a large asterisk after "sort-of stepfather".

 

[Trekker09]

I wouldn't say they're more fleshed out so much as they're most morally complex. Two villains masquerading as decent, one decent person masquerading as a villain.

I'd agree about Garak as morally ambiguous, Winn less so. Seems to me the only way Dukat is "fleshed out" is being as slimy, malignant and treacherous as you can get. If he had one redeeming quality it's his attachment to his daughter, but that happened only after Kira persuaded him not to kill her.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I'd agree about Garak as morally ambiguous, Winn less so. Seems to me the only way Dukat is "fleshed out" is being as slimy, malignant and treacherous as you can get. If he had one redeeming quality it's his attachment to his daughter, but that happened only after Kira persuaded him not to kill her.

I mean, a lot of the time in fiction and scifi they make the villains pretty much self-identify as such. Laughing maniacally about their evil plans and doing the evilest thing at every opportunity. Dukat and Winn are more like real life evil people. They blend in, rationalize their evil, and make a convincing enough argument to get good people not to see it.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Dupersuper's right... they couldn't be married. Dukat was still married to his Cardassian wife until after adult Ziyal was found, Kira's mom was still married to Kira's dad until he died.

So there'd be a large asterisk after "sort-of stepfather".

Is Cardassia okay with bigamy or polygamy?

 

[kkt]

Is Cardassia okay with bigamy or polygamy?

Not on American television, they weren't

I don't think they actually said, but they didn't show anyone who was in a polygamous marriage.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Not on American television, they weren't

I don't think they actually said, but they didn't show anyone who was in a polygamous marriage.

They apparently were okay with "comfort women." And we know that Bolians have three spouses in a marriage. So Cardassians are somewhat okay with concubines...