How can future shows retcon the errors of Star Trek Picard?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I still fail to understand how restricting communications to talking to your past self carries no risks to the overall timeline. Because it isn't about "oh, you're just a random civilian, your life being changed doesn't affect the timeline on a larger scale" but rather that tiny little happenstance events can and will add up until the mere fact of telling your teenage self something they weren't supposed to know yet could end up with the Enterprise having a different captain or a presidential candidate who would've otherwise won the election deciding to withdraw simply because your teenage self would make a different decision that would affect another person that would affect a third and so on. Annorax's crew in Year of Hell had to be specially trained to calculate the effects of any kind of interference with the timeline, because altering something that appears insignificant (e.g. deleting a random comet) could end up causing several parsecs worth of space not to be seeded with sentient life. There's a reason why the "time traveler moves a chair" meme is that popular.

On the other hand, if your life is so insignificant that altering it wouldn't alter the course of history, doesn't this mean that you could accidentally delete yourself from history and nobody would care? After all, you're insignificant, history wasn't changed, why should the government of the Federation waste the time and effort to restore you into existence? High school students would randomly disappear during temporal communications classes because something they told their past selves during the exercise actually ended up getting them killed, and the teacher would just shrug and say c'est la vie?

No thank you, I'd rather that we didn't talk to our past or future selves, period. All I see is the danger, not just to your own existence (you could end up screwing up your own life in ways you couldn't even imagine), but potentially a great deal of history.

Quite frankly, commonplace technology allowing people to talk to their past selves sounds like a story hook for a Black Mirror episode or a classic dystopian pulp sci-fi novel, because the ways it could go wrong are practically limitless. More likely than not, stories featuring this plot device in any form would turn into a parable on how all our past actions have led to us being the persons we are now and if we tried to change them because we think we are wiser now, the result would probably not be what we expect. Now where have I heard that before?

Yes, I know, you only watch Time Travel shows with negative portrayals of Time Travel.

You never watch any shows with positive portrayals.

You're like every other Westerner who has a stereotypical negative view on AI and the evil AI overlords who will gain sentience, turn into SkyNet, and who will create the Robot Uprising to screw over humanity is the only possible outcome of the future.

Sorry, that's not how I roll, those aren't the only stories that I watch. I'm not such a pessimist, like you. I don't see everything in a dark light and see the worst possible outcomes for everything. I understand the dangers and know that as humans, we can overcome and make a better future with technology, hand in hand.

Not everything is going to turn into a Apocalypse because that's all your media ever portrays.

 

[The Wormhole]

It's not like the Temporal Divisions didn't learn from those earlier mistakes and made changes to policies & procedures moving foreward.

Actually we know from Disco time travel eventually becomes outlawed, meaning Temporal Division would have been disbanded.

You might want to get your own bunker, hide yourself inside, and have order out and delivery cater to your every need so you never have to leave home.

Do you even pay attention to current events? You basically just described the world everyone's been living in the past two years.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Actually we know from Disco time travel eventually becomes outlawed, meaning Temporal Division would have been disbanded.

And writers can undo that moving foreward. I plan on undoing that in my head cannon.

Do you even pay attention to current events? You basically just described the world everyone's been living in the past two years.

Yes I know about what's going on with COVID. And the Pandemic won't last forever. We'll eventually move past it and things will eventually get back to normal.

The same was true with the Spanish Flu back in the day. It takes time for things to return to normal.

 

[fireproof78]

Actually we know from Disco time travel eventually becomes outlawed, meaning Temporal Division would have been disbanded.

It's nice that good things can come from time travel stories.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

It's nice that good things can come from time travel stories.

It's only good for you who is a noted hater of time travel stories.

It's bad for those of us who love time travel stories.

And I highly doubt Star Trek will stop telling Time Travel stories moving foreward in time.

 

[fireproof78]

And I highly doubt Star Trek will stop telling Time Travel

I can always hope, no matter how slight.

Time travel is a terrible tool best left in the hands of other writers not involved in Star Trek. It's sucks any enjoyment or drama out of the moment, creating a magic reset button which is not enjoyable. It's the ultimate save scum of fiction.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I can always hope, no matter how slight.

Time travel is a terrible tool best left in the hands of other writers not involved in Star Trek. It's sucks any enjoyment or drama out of the moment, creating a magic reset button which is not enjoyable. It's the ultimate save scum of fiction.

I guess you and I will always be on opposite sides of this topic.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess you and I will always be on opposite sides of this topic.

Probably. The way you treat it is terrifying.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Probably. The way you treat it is terrifying.

The way you treat it feels like I'm dealing with an Amish person or Neo Luddite, but in regards to all tech.

 

[fireproof78]

The way you treat it feels like I'm dealing with an Amish person or Neo Luddite, but in regards to all tech.

Even if I were, that's not a bad thing.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Even if I were, that's not a bad thing.

If you and I exist in the ST: World, I'll find you a planet where you and fellow Space Amish/Neo Luddites can all co-exist on one Amish / Luddite planet.

The rest of us Techies will move on with society and enjoy life in the Tech Lane where we enjoy all the fruits of Technology.

 

[fireproof78]

If you and I exist in the ST: World, I'll find you a planet where you and fellow Space Amish/Neo Luddites can all co-exist on one Amish / Luddite planet.

The rest of us Techies will move on with society and enjoy life in the Tech Lane where we enjoy all the fruits of Technology.

Assumptions abound. Very well, I'll leave you to it.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Assumptions abound. Very well, I'll leave you to it.

Do you dislike all the advanced tech?
Where do you draw that line, only at Time Travel?
Or are there other things you dislike besides Time Travel?

 

[fireproof78]

Do you dislike all the advanced tech?
Where do you draw that line, only at Time Travel?
Or are there other things you dislike besides Time Travel?

Time travel.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Time travel.

Ok, so good to know.

I'll remember to never hand you any Time Travel tech, the rest of us will enjoy it.

You can live your linear timeline life =D while others who want to enjoy time travel will go on time traveling adventures.

 

[fireproof78]

Ok, so good to know.

I'll remember to never hand you any Time Travel tech, the rest of us will enjoy it.

You can live your linear timeline life =D while others who want to enjoy time travel will go on time traveling adventures.

Yup

 

[SJGardner]

You're like every other Westerner who has a stereotypical negative view on AI and the evil AI overlords who will gain sentience, turn into SkyNet, and who will create the Robot Uprising to screw over humanity is the only possible outcome of the future.

Now it's my turn to say apples and oranges. AIs can become sentient. AI can be reasoned with, given personhood and integrated into a society. I count the episodes of Star Trek that deal with AI personhood among my favorites, I deeply condemn the Federation for constructing and utilizing enslaved sentient AI just like how I shudder at the casual mistreatment of droids in Star Wars. And believe it or not, I have actually read positive portrayals of societies ruled by AI gods that still allowed their citizens personal freedoms.

On the other hand, linear time and causality is a force of nature that is several magnitudes more complicated and dangerous than anything else. You cannot compare it to conquering water or space, because our entire universe works on the principle that A causes B causes C, and disrupting it can have severe unintended consequences. When flying an aircraft in the air, you only have to possess the information necessary to fly that route like the local weather conditions and the other aircraft on that specific route. You don't need to know about every single aircraft currently in the air or the direction of every single air current in the entire atmosphere. But time travel requires that you tally the possible unintended consequences of every single action you take, even as insignificant taking a step on a sidewalk, specifically because you are violating causality and disrupting the linearity of events.

Saying that time travel is fundamentally dangerous is not pessimism. It's a statement of fact. We are lucky that it is physically impossible in the real world.

Not that I hate time travel stories, though I do hate it if they are overused. Fun fact, I was one of the few people here who actually liked the Control storyline in Discovery. But treating something as monumentally dangerous as time travel as something utopian is not something I would want to see in a story. Going back to the past to observe it in person is okay for me as a positive portrayal, even though it violates quantum mechanics, but I never needed ultrarealism in my fiction. Going back to the past to prevent someone from altering it, or traveling to the future are perfectly okay for me, but both are seriously overused. But intentionally changing one's past, even if only "their subjective past" as though this would somehow shield the rest of the timeline, is not something I can ever accept being shown in a totally positive light. I find it self-indulgent, short-sighted and selfish, which is exactly what Admiral Janeway was in Endgame. It had a happy ending, but the episode was right about portraying it as dangerous, risky and morally questionable. If this makes me a rigid, close-minded luddite who only enjoys dystopias because they contain the kind of existential dread I like, so be it.

 

[fireproof78]

If this makes me a rigid, close-minded luddite who only enjoys dystopias because they contain the kind of existential dread I like, so be it.

Same here.

 

[The Old Mixer]

With that attitude, I'm surprised you ever leave your house.

Driving is too dangerous, Flying is too dangerous, hell walking on the street might be too dangerous.

You might want to get your own bunker, hide yourself inside, and have order out and delivery cater to your every need so you never have to leave home.

God forbid, doing something that might even be remotely dangerous.

This is rich coming from the guy who, in godawfully long post after godawfully long post, for pages and pages, has been going on and on and on about how we should use telepathy and time travel to prevent anything bad from ever happening.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Now it's my turn to say apples and oranges. AIs can become sentient. AI can be reasoned with, given personhood and integrated into a society. I count the episodes of Star Trek that deal with AI personhood among my favorites, I deeply condemn the Federation for constructing and utilizing enslaved sentient AI just like how I shudder at the casual mistreatment of droids in Star Wars. And believe it or not, I have actually read positive portrayals of societies ruled by AI gods that still allowed their citizens personal freedoms.

On the other hand, linear time and causality is a force of nature that is several magnitudes more complicated and dangerous than anything else. You cannot compare it to conquering water or space, because our entire universe works on the principle that A causes B causes C, and disrupting it can have severe unintended consequences. When flying an aircraft in the air, you only have to possess the information necessary to fly that route like the local weather conditions and the other aircraft on that specific route. You don't need to know about every single aircraft currently in the air or the direction of every single air current in the entire atmosphere. But time travel requires that you tally the possible unintended consequences of every single action you take, even as insignificant taking a step on a sidewalk, specifically because you are violating causality and disrupting the linearity of events.

Saying that time travel is fundamentally dangerous is not pessimism. It's a statement of fact. We are lucky that it is physically impossible in the real world.

It's impossible until somebody figures out how to do it and mass produces it.

Same with Warp Drive, Transporters, Replicators, etc.

Not that I hate time travel stories, though I do hate it if they are overused. Fun fact, I was one of the few people here who actually liked the Control storyline in Discovery. But treating something as monumentally dangerous as time travel as something utopian is not something I would want to see in a story. Going back to the past to observe it in person is okay for me as a positive portrayal, even though it violates quantum mechanics, but I never needed ultrarealism in my fiction. Going back to the past to prevent someone from altering it, or traveling to the future are perfectly okay for me, but both are seriously overused. But intentionally changing one's past, even if only "their subjective past" as though this would somehow shield the rest of the timeline, is not something I can ever accept being shown in a totally positive light. I find it self-indulgent, short-sighted and selfish, which is exactly what Admiral Janeway was in Endgame. It had a happy ending, but the episode was right about portraying it as dangerous, risky and morally questionable. If this makes me a rigid, close-minded luddite who only enjoys dystopias because they contain the kind of existential dread I like, so be it.

I guess you hate "Back to the Future" trilogy or "Legends of Tomorrow"?

"Doctor Who" doesn't always treat Time Travel as a bad thing given how willy nilly they are with Time Travel.