How can future shows retcon the errors of Star Trek Picard?

[fireproof78]

You should've learned to care about other people, saving lives, helping people, making society better, improving our lives, making things safer for us in the UFP.

I do that in real life. I didn't need Star Trek to teach me that.

I wouldn't have to time travel to spy on citizens if we can easily figure out who the Mole / Double Agent is via Telepathy.

Spying is spying. Invasion of privacy, with no restrictions because the government has determined you might be thinking wrong.

And, if you want to save lives then time travel is now involved. You just going to go back and take the double agents out of time? And why stop with the Mars attack? Why not Wolf 359 or the development of the Borg?

 

[The Wormhole]

Why not Wolf 359 or the development of the Borg?

Hell, according to the novels, the Borg were created as a result of time travel. Just imagine, no time travel, no Borg. Suddenly outlawing time travel makes a lot more sense.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I do that in real life. I didn't need Star Trek to teach me that.

Maybe you're not the one that needs that message, there are others who can use said message.

Spying is spying. Invasion of privacy, with no restrictions because the government has determined you might be thinking wrong.

I told you what the restrictions were, you didn't think they were good enough, so I had to amend those restrictions.

I'm trying to help UFP / StarFleet, you didn't like how I went about it.

And, if you want to save lives then time travel is now involved. You just going to go back and take the double agents out of time? And why stop with the Mars attack? Why not Wolf 359 or the development of the Borg?

We can stop the Double Agents before they do any damage, early in their career.

With Wolf 359, we know how important some of those characters are to the future, so Benjamin Sisko will have to live on, raising his son on DS9.

Some of those who would've died on the numerous StarShips can be transported to the future to start a new / second life.

I can pull a Chrono Trigger and do a body swap, right before the moment of death and save them.

As for the Development of the Borg, we don't know the full history of the Borg.

The Borg don't even remember their own full history, so messing in parts of history where you don't know is dangerous until we know for certain how things occured, what happened where, and how. So we'll have to wait until we have a better understanding before we muddle with "The Borg".

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe you're not the one that needs that message, there are others who can use it as well.

Probably.

told you what the restrictions were, you didn't think they were good enough, so I had to amend

Because no specific restrictions to information or protections for citizens against self-incrimination, or thought crime, or types of information the government is allowed to access. The probe is open ended to find traitorous thoughts. That's too broad.

I'm trying to help UFP / StarFleet, you didn't like how I went about it.

I disagree that telepathy and time travel are cure alls.

With Wolf 359, we know how important some of those characters are to the future, so Benjamin Sisko will have to live on, raising his son on DS9.

Some of those who would've died on the numerous StarShips can be transported to the future to start a new / second life.

That's despicable. So, some tragedies must still happen and some people still must die? That's why I disagree. The problem with time travel is that it demands lives be determined arbitrarily as to who deserves life or death in history. That's what bothers me-who are we as mere mortals to determine in history who deserves to live and die? The attack at Wolf 359 is important because of Sisko's life? So, his wife's life is less important?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Because no specific restrictions to information or protections for citizens against self-incrimination, or thought crime, or types of information the government is allowed to access. The probe is open ended to find traitorous thoughts. That's too broad.

I was limiting the targets to those who work for the UFP Government / StarFleet officers.

I SPECIFICALLY made civilians off-limits.

I limited the Telepathic search to relevant topics at hand to the case in question, but you find that too broad.

You didn't think that was good enough.

So I had to add more restrictors.

I disagree that telepathy and time travel are not cure alls.

They aren't cure alls, but they are a tool that can be used to help.

To not consider them as an option, especially when 90,000+ lives have been lost is unconcionable to me.

The UFP / StarFleet failed if they couldn't undo the damage eventually.

That's despicable. So, some tragedies must still happen and some people still must die? That's why I disagree. The problem with time travel is that it demands lives be determined arbitrarily as to who deserves life or death in history. That's what bothers me-who are we as mere mortals to determine in history who deserves to live and die? The attack at Wolf 359bis important because of Sisko's life? So, his wife's death is less important?

You said you wanted to protect the timeline, The Sisko's actions are a CRITICAL portion of the timeline.

Including his relationship with the Wormhole Aliens and how they swung the battle in the UFP's favor.

Yes, Benjamin Sisko would still think his wife is dead, but the reality is that her body would be swapped with a replicated fake moments before she died, and only the replicated fake would be left behind to get blown up on the USS Saratoga.

Then Jennifer herself would be wisked to the future, long after the era of the 24th century, several centuries into the future.

She'll get a full explanation as to what happened and she will get a second chance at life.

That's far better then letting her truly die.

Same with many of those who were on board StarShips during Wolf 359 who would've died anyways.

We can use the Chrono Trigger type Temporal "Save Swap" to save them all, move them into the future to get a new lease on life.

 

[fireproof78]

I was limiting the targets to those who work for the UFP Government / StarFleet officers.

That isn't limiting the information sought. So Starfleet officers now have less rights.

So I had to add more restrictors.

Yup. And it needs more. Privacy is a right of a citizens, including officers.

To not consider them as an option, especially when 90,000+ lives have been lost is unconcionable to me.

And yet there is no talk of stopping the Dominion War, the Bajoran occupation, or many other conflicts.

You said you wanted to protect the timeline, The Sisko's actions are a CRITICAL portion of the timeline.

Not if it is as you say and the number of lives must be saved.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That isn't limiting the information sought. So Starfleet officers now have less rights.

What rights does one lose when they join the military?

You actually don't lose the right to free speech, peaceful protest or assembly, fourth amendment protections.

A volunteer enlisted person knowingly waives those rights to serve their country.

When a person enters into an enlistment contract they swear to uphold the constitution and to follow orders and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Voluntarily consenting to not engage in protest, publically criticize the Commander in Chief and submit to barracks room searches, shop searches and become property of the United States government is a choice. There is no longer conscription in the US military.

Therefore,

You choose.

That's the price you pay when you willingly sign up for the military. StarFleet is no different.
You apply, sign up, and you agree to make certain trade-offs for a life in StarFleet.

The government can't conscript private citizens above a certain age now, but you can sure sign up and make temporary sacrifices for long term gains.

That's how it works.

How do you think Rios was able to afford such a nice StarShip like the "La Serena" after his service with StarFleet ended?

The resource costs of making the "La Serena" can't be cheap, it's quite large.

And the resources needed to make a vessel of that size isn't insignifcant compared to a normal tiny ass shuttle.

Yup. And it needs more. Privacy is a right of a citizens, including officers.

Depends on how you look at it, they hold critical information that affects the security of the UFP / StarFleet.

By signing up for the service, they aren't a normal "Private Citizens" anymore.

You wield amazing power that affects the lives of countless UFP citizens.

Commodore Oh / Nedar was a key example where her actions caused 90,000+ lives to be lost, countless lost of facilities & StarShips, dramatic change in UFP policy towards AI / Synthetic life.

Certain restrictions will apply while under oath and service to StarFleet / UFP.

The same can be said if you work for the UFP Government.

You choose to become a "Public Servant". There are certain benefits / restrictions you voluntarily sign up for when you work as a agent of the Government. That includes long term benefits. All that power you gain while in Public Service, doesn't come without strings attached and restrictions on what you can/can't do.

Thosee are just some of the checks & balances in play.

And yet there is no talk of stopping the Dominion War, the Bajoran occupation, or many other conflicts.

I talked about stopping the Bajoran Occupation early, you guys didn't like it.

You literally quoted the "Prime Directive" on me for the Bajoran Occupation.

You guys told me that the Dominion War was necessary, same with the Cardassian Border Wars.

Not if it is as you say and the number of lives must be saved.

Yes, I'm trying to save as much lives as possible, without interrrupting the timeline.

It's very carefully calculated and measured. It's not done without thought to long term consequences.

 

[fireproof78]

You literally quoted the "Prime Directive" on me for the Bajoran Occupation.

No I did not.

At this point it seems I'll be accused of all ills in the thread. I didn't comment on that.

That's the price you pay when you willingly sign up for the military. StarFleet is no different.
You apply, sign up, and you agree to make certain trade-offs for a life in StarFleet.

So, Starfleet gets unfettered access to officers' minds? No privacy in the Fleet? That appears too far to me, and a violation of individual rights, officer or not.

 

[The Wormhole]

Yes, Benjamin Sisko would still think his wife is dead, but the reality is that her body would be swapped with a replicated fake moments before she died, and only the replicated fake would be left behind to get blown up on the USS Saratoga.

Then Jennifer herself would be wisked to the future, long after the era of the 24th century, several centuries into the future.

She'll get a full explanation as to what happened and she will get a second chance at life.

That's far better then letting her truly die.

I honestly don't see the benefits there at all. So Jennifer Sisko survives, but she won't be able see her husband or son, or any other family or friends ever again and must instead spend the rest of her life exiled to a distant time period well after everyone she knew or cared about has themselves died of old age. Honestly, if it were me, I'd think dying on the Saratoga was a kinder fate.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

No I did not.

At this point it seems I'll be accused of all ills in the thread. I didn't comment on that.

Then who was it?

Somebody must've stated it in this thread.

If it wasn't you, I apologize. I falsely attributed that statement to you when it was the other user.

So, Starfleet gets unfettered access to officers' minds? No privacy in the Fleet? That appears too far to me, and a violation of individual rights, officer or not.

You know what you signed up for when you joined StarFleet or became a Public Servant, it's not a secret.

Plenty of people serve within StarFleet knowing all the crazy stuff that could potentially happen to them.

And this Telepathic Scanning issue only comes up if secrets are leaking out or a Terroristic Activity comes up.

It's not like a every single day occurance.

Christopher Pike knew he could potentially die or become a cripple within StarFleet, he didn't think it would happen to him.

But it did when he later became a admiral.

The only difference is that in the Kelvin Timeline, he's only wheel chair bound, he still has full access to his upper body and can live a normal life.

In the TOS era, he was bound to the machine and needed the machine to translate for him so he can communicate with the rest of the world.

If it was me, I'd offer him a better fate then being a cripple bound to a wheel chair or a special machine.

I honestly don't see the benefits there at all. So Jennifer Sisko survives, but she won't be able see her husband or son, or any other family or friends ever again and must instead spend the rest of her life exiled to a distant time period well after everyone she knew or cared about has themselves died of old age. Honestly, if it were me, I'd think dying on the Saratoga was a kinder fate.

The #1 thing you can have is your life, your health, and your safety.

Everything else comes after that.

Given Jennifer Sisko's situation, she will go on to know that her Husband, Child, friends & family had a nice long happy life.

She gets to start a new life.

 

[Sci]

That's why I extrapolated future details based on what's already established.

You didn't "extrapolate." You just made shit up in order to indulge in your fantasies of unlimited personal grandiosity and unaccountable state power.

How often do Police Screw Up IRL?

To be clear, police don't actually "screw up" too much in the sense of acting in ways that they were not intended as an institution to function. It's just that society has become more aware than it used to be that police as an institution are intended to function in ways that are fundamentally white supremacist and tyrannical. (But I digress.)

Saving lives is an important job. I'm intent on saving them.

You may not want to save those lost lives, but I am hell bent to bring them back.

And you're willing to kill billions more people to do so, since their existence defies your fantasy of an omnipotent state establishing perfect security.

You called me a "Fascist" on multiple occaisions through out this conversation.

I do not believe that you are a fascist, but the values you have expressed in this thread indicate an emotional attachment to ideas that in real life would fuel proto-authoritarian ideology. I strongly encourage you to re-evaluate your a priori assumptions about the appropriate role of the state and the appropriate trade-offs between security and liberty.

How do you think YOUR LOVED ONE will feel after they hear that come out of your mouth.
I would be DEVASTATED that you care that much more about "The Bloody Timeline" then said loved one.

I lost my mother in August. She was literally one week away from her 60th birthday, and she died quite unexpectedly.

I try not to speak for my mother on most issues, because we were very different people in some ways and I don't want to pretend I always know where she would stand. But I am very confident of two things:

1. She would roll her eyes at this entire debate.
2. She would never want to secure her own safety at the expense of innocent people's lives.

The #1 thing you can have is your life, your health, and your safety.

Everything else comes after that.

Some things are more important than life.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You didn't "extrapolate." You just made shit up in order to indulge in your fantasies of unlimited personal grandiosity and unaccountable state power.

That's usually how head canon works and how your personal Trek Universe will flow to fill in the gaps that official canon has left out.

I'm sure your Head Canon is drastically different from mines.

To be clear, police don't actually "screw up" too much in the sense of acting in ways that they were not intended as an institution to function. It's just that society has become more aware than it used to be that police as an institution are intended to function in ways that are fundamentally white supremacist and tyrannical. (But I digress.)

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree since that's an entire topic that can go on for weeks or months.

And you're willing to kill billions more people to do so, since their existence defies your fantasy of an omnipotent state establishing perfect security.

How is it killing them? Nobody is guranteed / predestined to be born at a given time in life.

Do you think willingly choosing abortion is killing the unborn child? Regardless of the circumstances that child was conceived. Or is it not killing said child like so many others have claimed?

Then changing history so that somebody may never get born is not murder, it's the road not chosen and they didn't get the luck of the draw to come into existence. You're not guranteed a slot in life / existence. Nobody is.

We're here, existing due to sheer random luck of the draw.
You had no choice, no control over your birth, and whom you were born to, under what conditions your childhood would have.
Those factors are never under your control.

But how you want to live life, that's under your control. Most people want to live, and live a long time. They don't want to die due to some random incident out of their control.

My state isn't "Omnipotent", it's just doing it's "damn best" to save the lives that are here, that we know of, that currently exist.
To not let the bad guys take away their lives for "no good reason" and sit there and "do nothing" to philosophize and moralize using the Prime Directive & Temporal Prime Directive as justifications to not go and get them back.

Those people that died, they could've gone on to have plenty of children, literally billions more people down the line.

Why do the current dead people's future descendents gets denied to exist, while the ones who are left over get to form new descendents that could've been different if the current dead folk didn't die?

Who are you to say that one is right or wrong?

The Nation State (UFP) has one core goal, protect it's people, territory, resources.

If the people died while the Nation State is on watch, the Nation State ROYALLY FAILED.

The Nation State has a Moral obligation to fix that to the best of it's ability.

To not do so, would be morally reprehensible and wouldn't make them worthy protagonists of our story.

Chuck from SF Debris was right IMO.

If you were Phlox / Jonathon Archer in ST:ENT (Dear Doctor), would you have let the race that was dying of a species wide pandemic die, due to fear of a future hypothetical worst case scenario?

Or would you give them the cure to save them?

I know what I'd do. I'd save them.

I do not believe that you are a fascist, but the values you have expressed in this thread indicate an emotional attachment to ideas that in real life would fuel proto-authoritarian ideology. I strongly encourage you to re-evaluate your a priori assumptions about the appropriate role of the state and the appropriate trade-offs between security and liberty.

I think you're incredibly cold hearted and uncaring. You choose Political Dogma in the "Prime Directive" and Ideology over fear of tampering with the timeline over the lives of your fellow people.

That shows how Ivory Towered you really are, that the lives, even of fictional citizens, are expendable to satisfy your "Prime Directive" at all costs.

I've seen plenty of real countries who sacrifice the lives of their citizens in the name of their Dogma / Laws.

They aren't the heroes of our real life story, they're the authoritarian regimes out there.

China under the CCP, modern day North Korea, Cuba under Castro's regime and it's successor regime, Iran currently, etc.

They sacrifice the lives of their citizens to fulfill their laws / dogma.

That doesn't make them heroic, good, or just. In fact, in my eyes, they are the villains of our real life story and they should be fully condemned, isolated, and sanctioned into oblivion.

The "Prime Directive" shouldn't be a dogmatic law to follow as a absolute law.

That's the one part of TNG era that I don't agree with.

Kirk and his crew's era got it right. It's a guideline, not some biblical law to follow to the end.

I lost my mother in August. She was literally one week away from her 60th birthday, and she died quite unexpectedly.

You have my condolences. I'm sorry for your loss. I wish she could've lived to be 100+, but that didn't happen.

I try not to speak for my mother on most issues, because we were very different people in some ways and I don't want to pretend I always know where she would stand. But I am very confident of two things:

1. She would roll her eyes at this entire debate.

1. She would never want to secure her own safety at the expense of innocent people's lives.

1) I can see why, we're Star Trek Nerds having a moral argument on what's right.
You choose adherence to the Prime Directive like it's Ideological Dogma to be followed with religious fervor.
I choose to do what's necessary to save lives, to bring back people.
Janeway was right IMO. We get to see Chakotay, Seven, Tuvok's potential futures now that they're alive.

2) And if her safety didn't come at the expense of innocent people's lives?

If I can offer you a time travel machine and a way to save her that has no physical harm to anybody else, guranteed.
Then what? Will you take me up on my offer and time travel with me?

I want to save your mother at all costs, if that means time traveling and messing with the fabric of time, I'm more than happy to do it. She needs to live to a ripe old age of 100+.

I want her to be old enough to see you have grand children, or great grand children.

That's the world / vision I want for you.

If you don't want that, then I don't know what to say.

Some things are more important than life.

Depends on what it is, and very rarely IMO.

If you don't have your life, then you have nothing.

Your life / existence should come first, everybody should think like that.

Live your life, to it's natural conclusion, have a happy and long existence.

Not have your life cut short by some outside factor that you had no control over.

 

[Sci]

We know canonically that the Klingons have rigged trials

You may be thinking of Cardassians.

I was thinking of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, where it is abundantly clear that Kirk and McCoy are subjected to a show trial. Archer's trial in ENT "Judgment" is equally rigged.

 

[Sci]

That's usually how head canon works

Head canon is about extrapolation. It may be also about making things up whole clothe. But head canon is not automatically about making things up to indulge in fantasies of unlimited personal grandiosity and unaccountable state violence -- that's on you, because those are the things you fantasize about.

How is it killing them? Nobody is guranteed / predestined to be born at a given time in life.

Preventing someone from being born whom you know would exist if the timeline were allowed to unfold naturally is the same thing as killing them.

Do you think willingly choosing abortion is killing the unborn child?

No, because that's not interfering with the natural unfolding of the timeline.

Then changing history so that somebody may never get born is not murder, it's the road not chosen and they didn't get the luck of the draw to come into existence. You're not guranteed a slot in life / existence. Nobody is.

You're not guaranteed survival, either.

My state isn't "Omnipotent",

No, but that's what you want: an omnipotent government, legally empowered to do whatever it wants in the name of national security.

it's just doing it's "damn best" to save the lives that are here, that we know of, that currently exist.

Your fantasy state would kill people who currently exist in the name of preventing deaths that have already happened. It would, in point of fact, inevitably kill more people than it would save, because your temporal meddling would nullify more people than it would save.

Why do the current dead people's future descendents gets denied to exist,

Why do imaginary hypothetical people outweigh people who actually do exist as a result of historical events?

Who are you to say that one is right or wrong?

I'm Sci. Fucking around with time is wrong, because you have no capacity to control, mitigate, or even anticipate the consequences of your actions. Humans meddling with changing the past is like a monkey playing with an atomic bomb.

The Nation State (UFP) has one core goal, protect it's people, territory, resources.

Today, yes. That tribalism is something that needs to be outgrown, because it will inevitably create more problems than it will solve.

If you were Phlox / Jonathon Archer in ST:ENT (Dear Doctor), would you have let the race that was dying of a species wide pandemic die, due to fear of a future worst case scenario?

No, because, once again, I don't believe in killing people who currently exist in order to secure an imaginary hypothetical the way you do.

I think you're incredibly cold hearted and uncaring.

You're the one who wants to kill a few million people to save a few thousand who have been dead for decades.

That shows how Ivory Towered you really are,

I spent nine years renting a room in a group house that was infested with rats, mice, and roaches in order to afford to send money to my mother every month after she had a stroke. Don't lecture me about living in an Ivory Tower.

that the lives, even of fictional citizens, are expendable

You're the one who wants to kill a few million people to save a few thousand.

I've seen plenty of real countries who sacrifice the lives of their citizens in the name of their Dogma / Laws.

They aren't the heroes of our real life story, they're the authoritarian regimes out there.

China under the CCP, modern day North Korea, Cuba under Castro's regime and it's successor regime, Iran currently, etc.

Don't forget the United States today. "Get back to work! Your CEO needs you to stop quarantining so you can make him more money!"

2) And if her safety didn't come at the expense of innocent people's lives?

If I can offer you a time travel machine and a way to save her that has no physical harm to anybody else, guranteed.

No such thing. Changing the timeline will always have consequences you cannot predict or control. The Monkey's Paw will always curl.

Then what? Will you take me up on my offer and time travel with me?

I read Christopher Marlowe; I know what happens to people who take Faustian bargains. No thanks, Mephistopheles.

I want to save your mother at all costs,

I appreciate that I am the one who introduced the topic of my mother to this discussion, but I did so to illustrate a single, limited point, and I would appreciate it if we withdrew the topic now.

Some things are more important than life.

Depends on what it is, and very rarely IMO.

No. Some things are more important than life.

 

[dupersuper]

I'd like to think of myself as closer to Admiral Ross.

A Section 31 puppet?

And you've proven this how?
Has their been a scientific study on the effective-ness of the policy change?

Um...you've got me. I have no "proof" of the effects of policy change in regards to telepaths and anti-telepath tech. I'll...get right on that?

I know, I've watched all of B5 including "Crusade" and "Legend of the Rangers".

Yup, me to.

Why would I join a dead movement?

I don't know: they just seem like your kinda' crowd.

Do you dislike Janeways actions at the end of the series?

No, I'm all for killing an entire generation of people to save 3.

Betazoid is a fully integrated Member Nation of the UFP.
I'm sure plenty of Betazoids live off-world and integrated amongst "mundanes" with open arms.
Deanna is a product of marriage between a Full Betazoid & a Human.

Deanna married a human and had children who were ¼ Betazoid & ¾ Human.

That's fully integrated.

StarFleet/Voyager helping out Telepaths escaping the Devore's persecution of all Telepaths was the right thing to do.
Voyager could've been (That's not my problem) and had a easier time passing through Devore space.

But they chose to do the moral route, and the harder route and helped out the Telepaths by storing them in their transporter buffers at great risk to themselves when passing through Devore territory.

So...not "overly".

I guess Cardassians & Klingons like having similar judicial systems.

Not really, outside of them both sucking.

And your point being? Everybody wants something in Trek. I'm sure you have things you want to see happen as well.

Yes, like never ever ever instituting horrifying thought police...

That's just StarFleets sloppy security practices that lets Shuttles get so easily stolen.

That was kinda' my point.

Yes, I know, you only watch Time Travel shows with negative portrayals of Time Travel.

You never watch any shows with positive portrayals.

You're like every other Westerner who has a stereotypical negative view on AI and the evil AI overlords who will gain sentience, turn into SkyNet, and who will create the Robot Uprising to screw over humanity is the only possible outcome of the future.

Sorry, that's not how I roll, those aren't the only stories that I watch. I'm not such a pessimist, like you. I don't see everything in a dark light and see the worst possible outcomes for everything. I understand the dangers and know that as humans, we can overcome and make a better future with technology, hand in hand.

Not everything is going to turn into a Apocalypse because that's all your media ever portrays.

Funny: I enjoy several more positive time travel stories (Doctor Who, Back to the Future, Quantum Leap, The Voyagers, Legends of Tomorrow...though those generally still treat it as very dangerous) and like plenty of fictional AI characters (Data, C3P0, R2-D2, Red Tornado, Vision, Jacosta, Machine Man, Kelex, Johnny 5, both Hollys...). Am I not western?

And writers can undo that moving forward. I plan on undoing that in my head cannon.

As any telepaths interviewing you for a position will know.

If you and I exist in the ST: World, I'll find you a planet where you and fellow Space Amish/Neo Luddites can all co-exist on one Amish / Luddite planet.

The rest of us Techies will move on with society and enjoy life in the Tech Lane where we enjoy all the fruits of Technology.

Let's hope the time traveling techies don't accidentally wipe out the simple luddite colony.

Which is fine. Keep time travel out of Trek.

Unlikely given how many episodes of Trek are about Time Travel.

And Picard S2 seems to feature EVEN MORE time travel.

ST: Prodigy seems to have some time travel in it's core plot.

DISCO already had time travel.

I hate to admit it, but they've finally got a point. You may not like time travel stories, but they're pretty much baked into Star Trek at this point. From TOS through TAS, Voyage Home, First Contact, 2009, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, Discovery, Picard, Short Treks, Prodigy...that ship has well and truly sailed.

I think they screwed up their calculations if they think your death in 2013 would affect a future, hundreds of years in the future, where 500 million lives would be saved on Dozaria VI.

Your Life, shouldn't affect that many people, hundreds of years in the future.

You may want to refresh yourself on the butterfly effect.

No one deserves to mess with time.

I VILL mess with time! I vill mess with time...

I wouldn't have to time travel to spy on citizens if we can easily figure out who the Mole / Double Agent is via Telepathy.

*heavy sigh*

You can enjoy your pessimists view on Time Travel.

I'm going with the optimists view.

A realist's view seems far less likely to get every one killed.

With Wolf 359, we know how important some of those characters are to the future, so Benjamin Sisko will have to live on, raising his son on DS9.

Ah, so saving the lives of his wife and shipmates isn't that important to you.

Christopher Pike knew he could potentially die or become a cripple within StarFleet, he didn't think it would happen to him.

But it did when he later became a admiral.

Did prime Pike become an admiral? I thought he was fleet captain or something.

The "Prime Directive" shouldn't be a dogmatic law to follow as a absolute law.

That's the one part of TNG era that I don't agree with.

Finally: we agree on something.

Your life / existence should come first, everybody should think like that.

You seriously don't see the issue with every one thinking their life comes first? People like the heroic crews in Star Trek wouldn't be risking their lives to save people, for a start...

I was thinking of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, where it is abundantly clear that Kirk and McCoy are subjected to a show trial. Archer's trial in ENT "Judgment" is equally rigged.

Yeah, but those are political show trials for Federation petaQ. We have no indication that Klingon trials are decided beforehand as a matter of policy like Cardassian trials.

 

[Sci]

I was thinking of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, where it is abundantly clear that Kirk and McCoy are subjected to a show trial. Archer's trial in ENT "Judgment" is equally rigged.

Yeah, but those are political show trials for Federation petaQ. We have no indication that Klingon trials are decided beforehand as a matter of policy like Cardassian trials.

Well, it's been a long time since I've seen "Judgment," but I don't seem to remember Archer's case as being politically important enough to warrant a special show trial. His advocate, Kolos, spends a lot of time in that episode telling Archer that the entire Klingon justice system has been corrupted by the dominance of the warrior class and that it routinely hands out unjust sentences.

As I think of it, it also occurs to me that the posthumous trial of Worf's father Mogh, seen in TNG's "Sins of the Father," is another example of a rigged trial whose outcome is predetermined.

So, yeah, I would argue that the Klingon Empire's trials are rigged. They may not be as overt and open about it as the Cardassians, but their trials seem to be pretty rigged to me.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Head canon is about extrapolation. It may be also about making things up whole clothe. But head canon is not automatically about making things up to indulge in fantasies of unlimited personal grandiosity and unaccountable state violence -- that's on you, because those are the things you fantasize about.

That's your allegations about me. I've never consider this any "Personal Grandiosity". I'm here to create a Head Canon where the government actually does the right thing, instead of what we see now. Which is them sitting on their butts and letting people die and doing nothing about it once they figured out how to solve the problem.

"Unaccountable State Violence"? Nowhere did I plan on "Instilling Violence" on anybody. That's just you mis-labeling my actions.

Preventing someone from being born whom you know would exist if the timeline were allowed to unfold naturally is the same thing as killing them.

So time is "Pre-destined" according to you? Everybody has a destiny to be born, and it should never be questioned because you're absolutely right, and I'm wrong. Is that how it is?

No, because that's not interfering with the natural unfolding of the timeline.

So it's not "Killing" because the Timeline is sacred and only your vision for this timeline that you don't know the future to is sacred. So nobody is allowed to tamper with it.

You're not guaranteed survival, either.

So answer me this. Do you believe the Police/Military have a moral or legal obligation to protect your life?
Yes/No?
Or are we citizens truly on our own and hope for the best?

No, but that's what you want: an omnipotent government, legally empowered to do whatever it wants in the name of national security.

The UFP isn't a "Q". They are far from ominpotent. You exaggerate WAY to much.
Yes, they need to be legally empowered to save lives. But they're far from "Omni-Potent".

Your fantasy state would kill people who currently exist in the name of preventing deaths that have already happened. It would, in point of fact, inevitably kill more people than it would save, because your temporal meddling would nullify more people than it would save.

So you know everybody who will exist in the future, for a fact. You have their names etched in stone, when everybody will be born, everybody who will be born? Do you consider yourself some sort of Divine being who knows when every person has to live and die in order to follow your cosmic grand plan?

Why do imaginary hypothetical people outweigh people who actually do exist as a result of historical events?

Why do you deny people their rights to live a full life? Why do you hate on their potential full life?

I'm Sci. Fucking around with time is wrong, because you have no capacity to control, mitigate, or even anticipate the consequences of your actions. Humans meddling with changing the past is like a monkey playing with an atomic bomb.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. Cause in the Star Trek World, Time Travel is very prevalent already. And it gets more prevalent as the centuries move on.

Today, yes. That tribalism is something that needs to be outgrown, because it will inevitably create more problems than it will solve.

Says whom? You have a crystal ball or magic book that tells you the outcomes of the future?
Every part of society is Tribalistic to various degrees.

Hell the UFP and Klingons are just giant Nation State Tribes.

Everything breaks down to various levels of Hierarchical tribes at every level.

We've all managed to survive as is, I'm sure the future won't be any different.

There will always be some form of Tribe in the guise of the Nation State.

No, because, once again, I don't believe in killing people who currently exist in order to secure an imaginary hypothetical the way you do.

I don't believe in letting people die, just to protect your dogmatic adherence to the Temporal Prime Directive.

You're the one who wants to kill a few million people to save a few thousand who have been dead for decades.

Janeway was right IMO, and her actions still stand currently.
Nobody has undone her actions in canon so far.

I spent nine years renting a room in a group house that was infested with rats, mice, and roaches in order to afford to send money to my mother every month after she had a stroke. Don't lecture me about living in an Ivory Tower.

Then why are you adhering to the Prime Directive & Temporal Prime Directive like they're the words of god?

You're the one who wants to kill a few million people to save a few thousand.

And a few million more people will get to come back into existence once my few thousand gets saved.

They won't get denied to exist just because you didn't want to save those folks.

Don't forget the United States today. "Get back to work! Your CEO needs you to stop quarantining so you can make him more money!"

Spoken like a true Democratic Socialist.

I hope you enjoy the government taxing you into oblivion for the greater good.

What percentage should the government allow you to subside on?

10%, 13% of your wages after everything is factored in?

Please, tell me how much of your earnings should be left over for the common worker to subside on?

No such thing. Changing the timeline will always have consequences you cannot predict or control. The Monkey's Paw will always curl.

So, you believe in the Mystical Monkey's Paw now? I thought you were a man of science?

I read Christopher Marlowe; I know what happens to people who take Faustian bargains. No thanks, Mephistopheles.

I thought you didn't believe in this religious non-sense. That you were a person of science.

I appreciate that I am the one who introduced the topic of my mother to this discussion, but I did so to illustrate a single, limited point, and I would appreciate it if we withdrew the topic now.

Up to you.

No. Some things are more important than life.

Those are your values, you don't get to dictate that to me.

My values are obviously different then yours.

Remember IDIC (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations)?

Or do you not believe in co-existence with those who are different from you?

A Section 31 puppet?

He's no puppet, but he is a collaborator when necessary.

Um...you've got me. I have no "proof" of the effects of policy change in regards to telepaths and anti-telepath tech. I'll...get right on that?

Good.

Yup, me to.

I'm glad there are more B5 fans =D.

I don't know: they just seem like your kinda' crowd.

Nah

No, I'm all for killing an entire generation of people to save 3.

Good to know, don't forget that an all new generation will take the place after those 3.

So...not "overly".

I think the UFP are pro full integration folks and bend over backwards to make friends. Even at extreme cost and risk to themselves.

Not really, outside of them both sucking.

The end results are kinda the same.

Yes, like never ever ever instituting horrifying thought police...

I won't let that happen. Not in my head canon.
The way people use those powers are very much controlled and targeted.

That was kinda' my point.

That StarFleet sucks at security, yeah I noticed.

Funny: I enjoy several more positive time travel stories (Doctor Who, Back to the Future, Quantum Leap, The Voyagers, Legends of Tomorrow...though those generally still treat it as very dangerous) and like plenty of fictional AI characters (Data, C3P0, R2-D2, Red Tornado, Vision, Jacosta, Machine Man, Kelex, Johnny 5, both Hollys...). Am I not western?

Depends on which ones you enjoy more in the totality

Do you prefer Dark Visions of Time Travel and AI with allegorical warning messages?
or
Do you prefer Positive Views of Time Travel and AI where they benefit society?

What's your preference?

As any telepaths interviewing you for a position will know.

I'm generally pro Telepathic Freedom =D

Let's hope the time traveling techies don't accidentally wipe out the simple luddite colony.

It shouldn't, most luddite colonies usualy want nothing to do with us hi tech modern folk.

So usually you're off in your little corner of the galaxy, with little to no interaction from the greater Galactic Community.

I hate to admit it, but they've finally got a point. You may not like time travel stories, but they're pretty much baked into Star Trek at this point. From TOS through TAS, Voyage Home, First Contact, 2009, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, Discovery, Picard, Short Treks, Prodigy...that ship has well and truly sailed.

You can't undo reality, Time Travel has been a part of Trek since the beginning.

You might want to create a new Trek Parody / Sattire show if you want ST like series that has no Time Travel.

You may want to refresh yourself on the butterfly effect.

I know what it is, i don't necessarilly agree with it or believe the ButterFly effect is a valid theory outside of it's original use case. You can't apply the ButterFly Effect to everything and expect it to work.

I VILL mess with time! I vill mess with time...

A realist's view seems far less likely to get every one killed.

We'll see, won't we.

Ah, so saving the lives of his wife and shipmates isn't that important to you.

I'll save them, in my own Chrono Trigger "Save Swap" type way.
Aren't you part of the same folks who tell me to "Protect the Time Line".

Well Benjamin Sisko is a critical figure of the time line.
Messing with his time line is not for debate given how important his actions were to winning the Dominion War.

So I'll have to save them in my own method, it won't be perfect, but they'll be alive, and in the future, long after their era.

Did prime Pike become an admiral? I thought he was fleet captain or something.

He eventually makes it to a Flag Officer rank. Somebody who's super important.

Finally: we agree on something.

Good!

You seriously don't see the issue with every one thinking their life comes first? People like the heroic crews in Star Trek wouldn't be risking their lives to save people, for a start...

Actually, they would, because that's who they are. Saving others knowing that other members of the UFP / StarFleet will watch out for them in the future and come save their ass if they screw up. They're just paying it forward by saving who they can at the moment.

 

[Sci]

"Unaccountable State Violence"? Nowhere did I plan on "Instilling Violence" on anybody. That's just you mis-labeling my actions.

No, that's me accurately characterizing your fantasy of a government that uses telepathy to establish literal thought police.

So time is "Pre-destined" according to you?

The future is not pre-destined. But the past most definitely is set and should be left "in stone."

So it's not "Killing" because the Timeline is sacred

You cannot kill someone who does not exist. You can kill someone who exists presently.

So answer me this. Do you believe the Police/Military have a moral or legal obligation to protect your life?

The state has a moral obligation to protect the lives of its people. This moral obligation is superseded by its moral obligation not to re-write the past, and by its moral obligation to refrain from becoming tyrannical.

Holding a gun to the world and holding a gun to the past is not "safety."

Why do you deny people their rights to live a full life?

I do not. I deny others the right to change the past.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. Cause in the Star Trek World, Time Travel is very prevalent already. And it gets more prevalent as the centuries move on.

Until the 32nd Century, when it becomes far, far less prevalent.

Says whom?

The history of human conflict combined with modern humanity's capacity for existential annihilation of the entire species.

There will always be some form of Tribe in the guise of the Nation State.

Nation-states have literally only existed since the Peace of Westphalia.

I don't believe in letting people die,

It's not letting people die when they have been dead for many years already.

Then why are you adhering to the Prime Directive & Temporal Prime Directive like they're the words of god?

Because I live in the real world and know that there is a such thing as unintended consequences that cannot be controlled, mitigated, or even anticipated.

Spoken like a true Democratic Socialist.

Proudly so.

I hope you enjoy the government taxing you into oblivion for the greater good.

What percentage should the government allow you to subside on?

10%, 13% of your wages after everything is factored in?

Please, tell me how much of your earnings should be left over for the common worker to subside on?

You're confusing liberalism with democratic socialism.

So, you believe in the Mystical Monkey's Paw now? I thought you were a man of science?

I thought you didn't believe in this religious non-sense. That you were a person of science.

Metaphors, dear boy.

Those are your values, you don't get to dictate that to me.

Nobody gets to dictate your values. But the democratic state does get to dictate whether or not you enforce your values on others.

Fortunately for the fictional characters of Star Trek, the Federation and its antecedents understand that rewriting the past is simply too dangerous to be allowed.

Or do you not believe in co-existence with those who are different from you?

Nobody has said anything about not peacefully co-existing with you.

 

[SJGardner]

And a few million more people will get to come back into existence once my few thousand gets saved.

They won't get denied to exist just because you didn't want to save those folks.

They won't get back into existence because they didn't even exist until you've started meddling with the timeline in the first place!

You keep dodging the question of why erasing people who currently exist is morally permissible in order to bring a different set of people into existence. Do they consent to changes in history that might end up erasing them?

Forgive me if I don't think of this as a positive portrayal of time travel when every "road not taken" you're gushing about might end up erasing me or my loved ones out of history or at the least having lives that are completely unrecognizable. That's specifically why this is a horrifying idea. It eats away at the core of your identity. And before you start again about how I couldn't possibly be affected, I'm not talking about the specific incursions your hypothetical future Federation temporal DIY hobbyists would make but rather the concept of a malleable timeline in general.

And by the way,

In the end, Marty & his family ended their adventures by being better off than where they started.

Just because something insanely risky ended up paying off at the end, it doesn't mean it was a good idea in the first place. It just means you got lucky.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Talk about being Cold Hearted and Calculating.
How is their no compassion for YOUR LOVED ONE, when I'm trying to save them FOR YOU.
YOU ARE THE PRIMARY BENEFACTOR.

I think you're incredibly cold hearted and uncaring.

And here's where fantasy unhealthily gets mixed up with reality. Stick to this being about your fantasy of what you'd do with the Trek setting. Don't make it personal. You're not offering to do diddly squat for any real people who post here, or their loved ones.

But imagine the good that you could do if you applied this drive and energy into actual, real-life humanitarian causes.