How can future shows retcon the errors of Star Trek Picard?

[The Wormhole]

And you're doing nothing to protect the UFP / StarFleet from traitors.

The tool sits there, right in front of you. It can root out traitors like Commodore Oh.

Let's entertain for a moment that Starfleet did employ telepathic enforcers to screen its personnel. Do you seriously think this is an obstacle that intelligence agencies and their spies wouldn't eventually learn to overcome? We know there are already alien species in the Trek universe than can block telepaths and even ones who can't be read by telepaths as part of their natural biology, like the Ferengi. So now there's Thought Police monitoring Starfleet personnel to make sure they're not spies, only the spies you really need to worry about still won't be detected. And before you know it, the Thought Police are monitoring everyone to make sure they thinking proper thoughts, and suddenly the privacy of our innerselves is no longer private. And you're fooling yourself if you think once this policy is instituted on Starfleet officers and Federation government employees that it won't eventually be turned on the general population.

And what about aliens who can't be read by telepaths because of their biology? Are they banned from serving in Starfleet? From working for the Federation government? From joining the Federation entirely? So now the Federation is dictating what people can and can't do because of their genetics? How the hell is that fair or in line with the Federation's ethics and values?

 

[BillJ]

If their cultural requirement is to scan your mind for honesty in business dealings, would you say no? Potentially lose out on a big client?

I would decline to do the deal. Big universe out there to do things.

The only thing your plan would accomplish is to get the best and brightest to completely avoid dealing with Starfleet.

It's not a secret. Family members getting scanned could be part of the deal.

Your violating the freedoms of people who never swore allegiance to Starfleet. Pretty high price to pay, and something you assured us wouldn’t happen.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I would decline to do the deal. Big universe out there to do things.

And if the knowledge of Telepaths exist to the greater Universe and every single Business deal required you to submit to a Telepathic Scan for cheating or lies?

Would you still do business, or refuse to partake in business deals where you can't lie, cheat, hide, omit, or defraud your customers?

The only thing your plan would accomplish is to get the best and brightest to completely avoid dealing with Starfleet.

Or attract those who have nothing to hide.

Your violating the freedoms of people who never swore allegiance to Starfleet. Pretty high price to pay, and something you assured us wouldn’t happen.

It's called a "Job Requirement". You knew what were the requirements of said job.

Have you ever been through a Background Check for a Government Level Security Clearance? They go through the details of a persons background exhaustively.

If your next job required you to take a "Lie Detector" test that was highly accurate, would you do it?

Let's entertain for a moment that Starfleet did employ telepathic enforcers to screen its personnel. Do you seriously think this is an obstacle that intelligence agencies and their spies wouldn't eventually learn to overcome?

Do you not think that the UFP ? StarFleet don't already know about this and have figured out counter-measures to overcome any said defenses?

We know there are already alien species in the Trek universe than can block telepaths and even ones who can't be read by telepaths as part of their natural biology, like the Ferengi. So now there's Thought Police monitoring Starfleet personnel to make sure they're not spies, only the spies you really need to worry about still won't be detected. And before you know it, the Thought Police are monitoring everyone to make sure they thinking proper thoughts, and suddenly the privacy of our innerselves is no longer private. And you're fooling yourself if you think once this policy is instituted on Starfleet officers and Federation government employees that it won't eventually be turned on the general population.

The policy can't be foisted upon the general population, there are legal protections for that.

And what about species who require complete mental access to whomever they deal with?

The Betazoids are one of those species. Look how Lwaxanna Troi mentally read everybody around her with no care in the world. The Betazoids are already members of the UFP. Reading people's minds are natural things. There's nothing to hide.

And what about aliens who can't be read by telepaths because of their biology?

I'm sure StarFleet will figure out a way past it or deal with that situation appropriately.

Are they banned from serving in Starfleet? From working for the Federation government? From joining the Federation entirely? So now the Federation is dictating what people can and can't do because of their genetics? How the hell is that fair or in line with the Federation's ethics and values?

One of the Federation's values is Honesty & Truthfulness. You can't be more truthful and honest than revealing the inner monologues of your thoughts.

They don't have to be banned from serving StarFleet or the UFP Government. But they might not gain security clearance to important jobs and that might limit what type of opportunities are available. But many people are fine doing normal work in StarFleet / UFP.

 

[BillJ]

One of the Federation's values is Honesty & Truthfulness. You can't be more truthful and honest than revealing the inner monologues of your thoughts.

You are so full of shit. We value honesty and truthfulness, so we’re going to treat you and your families like liars until you jump through our hoops and every so often after that.

This is your proposal, in a nutshell.

 

[The Wormhole]

Do you not think that the UFP ? StarFleet don't already know about this and have figured out counter-measures to overcome any said defenses?

And do you think intelligence agencies aren't going to figure out a way to continuously improve their methods?

The policy can't be foisted upon the general population, there are legal protections for that.

But you see, once you start the process by allowing it on Starfleet officers and government employees it creates a slippery slope of precedent which can continue to be built upon. Does the Federation President's security protection detail begin employing telepaths to make sure there are no threatening people within the vicinity? Even when the President is among the public giving a speech? If that's allowed, then what about civilian law enforcement having access to telepaths when questioning suspects/persons of interest? Once that gets allowed, why not just go all the way and have permanent telepathic monitoring?

The Betazoids are one of those species. Look how Lwaxanna Troi mentally read everybody around her with no care in the world. The Betazoids are already members of the UFP. Reading people's minds are natural things. There's nothing to hide.

That's a very bad example. Betazoid custom is to only read a person's thoughts with their consent, a fact Deanna was frequently reminding Lwaxanna of every time she read someone's thoughts.

You can't be more truthful and honest than revealing the inner monologues of your thoughts.

There's also no greater invasion of privacy then having to share you inner monologues and thoughts with others.

They don't have to be banned from serving StarFleet or the UFP Government. But they might not gain security clearance to important jobs and that might limit what type of opportunities are available. But many people are fine doing normal work in StarFleet / UFP.

Not granting them security clearance or limiting the job opportunities available to them just because they are of a species that can't be read telepathically goes back to my previous point, that they are being told what they can or can't do simply because of their genetics. Which last I checked is a stance Star Trek has always spoken out against.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You are so full of shit. We value honesty and truthfulness, so we’re going to treat you and your families like liars until you jump through our hoops and every so often after that.

This is your proposal, in a nutshell.

So you're afraid of dealing with others if they can't validate anything you state with absolute certainty?

You need that mental edge of protecting your mind from others and potentially hiding if you're telling the truth?

What if the entire Universe required Telepathy of some form to do business?

Or you were surrounded by businesses that only dealt with those who had Telepaths in their employ or those who would submit to Telepathic mind scans?

What then? What will you do BillJ?

Refuse to work for them?

Refuse to work at all?

Make a sign that said "No Telepaths allowed / welcome"

Mark your zone as "No telepathy allowed here"?

Are you going to be prejudiced against all your Betazoid or Mari neighbors whose normality was to read everybodys minds with Telepathy? Remember, they can read your minds at all times and you have no natural defenses against them.

They move in next door to you. What then?

 

[The Wormhole]

What if the entire Universe required Telepathy of some form to do business?

If that happened, telepathy would no doubt be regulated to provide everyone with some measure of privacy. That's just basic decency.

 

[BillJ]

They move in next door to you. What then?

They are people living as they normally live. They are not an employer/government forcing me to share my inner mind.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

And do you think intelligence agencies aren't going to figure out a way to continuously improve their methods?

That's why Spycraft is a game of "Cat & Mouse". It's always a endless string counter-move upon counter-move.

That's to be expected.

But you see, once you start the process by allowing it on Starfleet officers and government employees it creates a slippery slope of precedent which can continue to be built upon. Does the Federation President's security protection detail begin employing telepaths to make sure there are no threatening people within the vicinity? Even when the President is among the public giving a speech? If that's allowed, then what about civilian law enforcement having access to telepaths when questioning suspects/persons of interest? Once that gets allowed, why not just go all the way and have permanent telepathic monitoring?

Let's go the opposite route, what if you're so paranoid about having your mind read that you banned Telepaths from living close to you or doing business with you?

Are you going to have a sign that says "No Telepaths Allowed"? Are you going to ban "Telepaths" from serving in your Government / StarFleet for fear of leaking secrets or stealing secrets?

Are you going to be like the Devore and hunt down Telpaths and outlaw Telepathy?

What about the Betazoids and their natural free reign to read everybody's mind without consent?

Don't forget that there are the Mari in the Delta Quadrant, an entire society that is telepathic.

That's part of natural society for them, if they can't read your mind, you're insulting them or hiding secrets from them.

That's a very bad example. Betazoid custom is to only read a person's thoughts with their consent, a fact Deanna was frequently reminding Lwaxanna of every time she read someone's thoughts.

Yet Lwaxanna constantly violated it all the time by reading another persons mind.

Don't forget, she's a high ranking diplomat.

Imagine what every other Telepath can do without you ever noticing.

There's also no greater invasion of privacy then having to share you inner monologues and thoughts with others.

So what are you going to do if you're surrounded by Telepaths?

Go buy that Telepathic Inhibitor? They're huge and bulky. If you don't mind wearing that ginormous contraption around your head, then be my guest.

Not granting them security clearance or limiting the job opportunities available to them just because they are of a species that can't be read telepathically goes back to my previous point, that they are being told what they can or can't do simply because of their genetics. Which last I checked is a stance Star Trek has always spoken out against.

So if the Government Interviewer / StarFleet Officer had the natural ability to read your mind as a applicant and made a request to read you as part of the interview process.

What do you say? Are you going to discriminate against them for doing what's a natural ability to them?

Trust that they aren't reading your mind and hope for the best? They may secretly read you anyways and you would never know.

If that happened, telepathy would no doubt be regulated to provide everyone with some measure of privacy. That's just basic decency.

And if there's no way to gurantee privacy? That mind reading can happen and nobody else would know it?

It basically takes a Telepath to detect another telepath, and if you don't have one, then any other local telepath can read your mind. What then?

They are people living as they normally live. They are not an employer/government forcing me to share my inner mind.

What if they are constantly reading your mind for funsies or as part of normal daily life since it's part of their nature and they can't turn it off?

 

[fireproof78]

A lie detector test doesn't share my actual thoughts. This is talking about needing to read my actual thoughts, my innermost being, without any potential protection against intrusion. If I hesitate I might implicate myself for something I haven't done. It's literal thought police. Pre-crime next.

 

[BillJ]

I wonder what Starfleet will file little Joey’s first yank session under?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

A lie detector test doesn't share my actual thoughts. This is talking about needing to read my actual thoughts, my innermost being, without any potential protection against intrusion. If I hesitate I might implicate myself for something I haven't done. It's literal thought police. Pre-crime next.

People who mind read can tell the difference between whimsical thoughts and what you actually have done. They can also validate with Time Travel tech to see if you did any crime that you might have thought as a stray thought and prove that you're innocent and that you had random fanciful thoughts that are harmless since "Nothing Happened" IRL.

I wonder what Starfleet will file little Joey’s first yank session under?

Nobody cares about your sexual history or proclivities. It's the 24th century, having sex & fetishes is normal.
Nobody cares or is ashamed of what kink you're into. That information is largely irellevant.

 

[fireproof78]

People who mind read can tell the difference between whimsical thoughts and what you actually have done. They can also validate with Time Travel tech to see if you did any crime that you might have thought as a stray thought and prove that you're innocent and that you had random fanciful thoughts that are harmless since "Nothing Happened" IRL.

So much for trust.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So much for trust.

Their is an old proverb: "Trust, but Verify".

"Trust" isn't just handed out Willy Nilly like free Bic Pens to advertise for something.

"Trust" is earned, and constantly renewed by delivering on what you state or do.

If you state you're going to do ___ or you claim ___ is true.
That better be truthful so you can build up credibility.

Trust is earned, not handed out cheaply like a free trinket.

 

[fireproof78]

Their is an old proverb: "Trust, but Verify".

This isn't verification. This is intrusion in to a person's life with no limit or restrictions and expecting those in charge to never abuse it. You don't trust the common person for a job but trust the higher ups with that much power? Yeah, that sounds like thought police to me.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

And yet the UFP / StarFleet let Double-Agents infiltrate their ranks.

Selok was posing as a Vulcan Ambassador

Commodore Oh was the head of StarFleet Security

A problem that could've been easily solved with psychic mind scans.

The fact that they were serving in high level positions in governments where routine contact with telepaths like Vulcans and full-blooded Betazoids occurs suggests that the Tal'Shiar / Zhat-Vash have trained their agents in mental discipline and compartmentalization to prevent giving away their secrets.

They regularly infiltrate Vulcan society, you don't think they're going to protect themselves against mind melds? They fought their Vulcan brothers back during a time when psionic weapons like the Stone of Gol were employed to kill your enemies. You don't think they would practice concealing their hostile intent so the weapon wouldn't kill them?

In another post you were talking about the use of polygraph machines in law enforcement and intelligence services. This is true, Also true is that polygraphs are not admissible as evidence in court because their accuracy (which doesn't actually "detect lies", just biometric data like heart rate, etc.) is extremely hit or miss, they generate a lot of false positives that make police investigate the wrong suspect because they were nervous during the interview at the expense of continuing the search for other suspects, and they can be defeated by a well-trained person (which they teach in the CIA) by generating a higher-than-normal baseline through clenching and fast breathing after which any lies register the same biometric data.

Telepathic scans would run into similar issues. What if someone is imagining a fictional scenario in their head while you are reading them? What if that imaginative scenario was lead down a certain path by the questions the investigator had been asking? It seems like a lot of the reading would be left up to interpretation.

Starfleet would not permit that kind of violation of personal rights.

 

[The Wormhole]

Let's go the opposite route, what if you're so paranoid about having your mind read that you banned Telepaths from living close to you or doing business with you?

Are you going to have a sign that says "No Telepaths Allowed"? Are you going to ban "Telepaths" from serving in your Government / StarFleet for fear of leaking secrets or stealing secrets?

Are you going to be like the Devore and hunt down Telpaths and outlaw Telepathy?

So basically the only options are allow telepaths free rein or outlaw telepathy?

Yet Lwaxanna constantly violated it all the time by reading another persons mind.

Well, yeah, Lwaxanna's role on TNG was basically the batty aunt who always does as she wishes. That doesn't make it right or acceptable.

So if the Government Interviewer / StarFleet Officer had the natural ability to read your mind as a applicant and made a request to read you as part of the interview process.

What do you say? Are you going to discriminate against them for doing what's a natural ability to them?

Trust that they aren't reading your mind and hope for the best? They may secretly read you anyways and you would never know.

That doesn't answer my question you quoted to make this statement. How is it right or fair that people from a species that can't be read telepathically should have their career advancement limited just because telepaths are unable to read them?

People who mind read can tell the difference between whimsical thoughts and what you actually have done. They can also validate with Time Travel tech to see if you did any crime that you might have thought as a stray thought and prove that you're innocent and that you had random fanciful thoughts that are harmless since "Nothing Happened" IRL.

Wow. So not only are people required to have their inner thoughts and feelings put on display, time travelers are used to make sure they are being 1000% truthful? You really don't believe in privacy do you?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

This isn't verification. This is intrusion in to a person's life with no limit or restrictions and expecting those in charge to never abuse it. You don't trust the common person for a job but trust the higher ups with that much power? Yeah, that sounds like thought police to me.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

The higher ups are also required to submit to the same scans as you.

The fact that they were serving in high level positions in governments where routine contact with telepaths like Vulcans and full-blooded Betazoids occurs suggests that the Tal'Shiar / Zhat-Vash have trained their agents in mental discipline and compartmentalization to prevent giving away their secrets.

And I'm sure the endless game of cat and mouse will continue where they figure out ways to break those compartments apart and to hunt down for those secrets.

They regularly infiltrate Vulcan society, you don't think they're going to protect themselves against mind melds? They fought their Vulcan brothers back during a time when psionic weapons like the Stone of Gol were employed to kill your enemies. You don't think they would practice concealing their hostile intent so the weapon wouldn't kill them?

I'm sure they did back in those days. But the Stone of Gol has been destroyed. So there's no remaining item to practice against to test with.

In another post you were talking about the use of polygraph machines in law enforcement and intelligence services. This is true, Also true is that polygraphs are not admissible as evidence in court because their accuracy (which doesn't actually "detect lies", just biometric data like heart rate, etc.) is extremely hit or miss, they generate a lot of false positives that make police investigate the wrong suspect because they were nervous during the interview at the expense of continuing the search for other suspects, and they can be defeated by a well-trained person (which they teach in the CIA) by generating a higher-than-normal baseline through clenching and fast breathing after which any lies register the same biometric data.

The reason they aren't admissible in court is because of the high level of false positives and the ability to fake through it.
The PolyGraph tests lack reliability.

Telepathic scans would run into similar issues. What if someone is imagining a fictional scenario in their head while you are reading them? What if that imaginative scenario was lead down a certain path by the questions the investigator had been asking? It seems like a lot of the reading would be left up to interpretation.

A professional mind scanner / telepath should be able to distinguish fantasy & fiction with reality.

They would also need to corroborate any telepathic findings with evidence IRL. You can't just accuse somebody of something without evidence to back it. Even if it was a telepathic reading. You still have to do the detective work to prove whatever accusation is thrown their way. UFP / StarFleet will also have Time Travel tech, so they can literally verify if you're lying by peering through the veil of time and validating any claims.

Starfleet would not permit that kind of violation of personal rights.

The same StarFleet that wanted to mass produce Data by dissecting him and cloning him?

The same StarFleet that allowed Section 31 to make a genetic Bio-weapon & helped deliver said Bio-weapon to exterminate "The Founders".

 

[BillJ]

The higher ups are also required to submit to the same scans as you.

Someone with a lot more power and importance would have a lot more tools available to hide anomalous readings than your rank-and-file citizen.

The same StarFleet that allowed Section 31 to make a genetic Bio-weapon & helped deliver said Bio-weapon to exterminate "The Founders".

I wasn’t aware that Section 31 reported to Starfleet...

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So basically the only options are allow telepaths free rein or outlaw telepathy?

What do you suggest? You can't stop a Telepath from doing their natural thing of reading minds.

You're a "Mundane". You have no powers to stop them.

You're more than free to buy those ginormous Telepathy Jammers/Suppressors and wear them 24/7 to protect your mind from being read at any given time.

As of 2368, the Federation had no technology capable of blocking telepathic transmissions. (TNG: "Violations") Still, telepathic suppressors were used by other species, and according to Quark, they were typically bulky.

Well, yeah, Lwaxanna's role on TNG was basically the batty aunt who always does as she wishes. That doesn't make it right or acceptable.

Doesn't mean that what she does, isn't common to all telepaths amongst regular folks who have no Telepathic powers either.

Deanna Troi may be prim / proper and not read the emotions of others, doesn't mean that other Telepathic folks won't use their power to their advantage without you knowing.

That doesn't answer my question you quoted to make this statement. How is it right or fair that people from a species that can't be read telepathically should have their career advancement limited just because telepaths are unable to read them?

You'll have to earn trust the old fashioned way. By doing & delivering and hope that those who employ you, believe that you're delivering on said trust.

Wow. So not only are people required to have their inner thoughts and feelings put on display, time travelers are used to make sure they are being 1000% truthful? You really don't believe in privacy do you?

It's not a matter of what I believe or want. It's called verification. It's nothing personal.

If somebody tells you ___ is happening, do you not use multiple sources to validate said claim?

It's not like you don't trust random person. But you do your home work to make sure that ___ claim is true.

That's common sense.

Someone with a lot more power and importance would have a lot more tools available to hide anomalous readings than your rank-and-file citizen.

And I'm sure those in power will be monitored as well.

Also, said tools will be monitored for.

I wasn’t aware that Section 31 reported to Starfleet...

That was only in the DISCO-era, before the Control debacle.

Now they just work in the shadows, secretly, and collude at the highest levels.

Imagine the # of officers needed to infect Odo to pass on the Genetically engineered virus onto the Founders.

That's ALOT of potential collaborators who are in on it.