Are fans actually usually right?

[fireproof78]

Getting back to the OT, fans often think that because they love something and have memorized and scrutinized chapter and verse things the creators have probably forgotten, that somehow this makes them Templar Knights, keepers of the flame, and creates the illusion and, frankly, delusion, that they know better than the professionals.

This word picture made my day.

 

[JD]

OK, this is my last post on this topic, I promise.

I would think that "the back" would be a bit more organized than that. After all, finding a carton of 1% milk shouldn't necessitate searching through everything in the pharmacy stuff or the canned soup or the produce. I don't make this request for trivial reasons, just for things I really need and which can't wait for another time.

Milk is a very bad example, because there is a very limited, very open space where milk is in the backs of store. A better example of what I'm talking about would be if someone is looking for a specific action figure, which would be in a small box, in the toys sections of the backroom, which is one in stores like the one where I worked is of the bigger areas in the back, with three or four huge shelves stacked with dozens of boxes from the floor almost to the ceiling, some as small as barely a foot wide. I'm pretty sure there had to have been times I spent at least 15 - 20 minutes searching for a specific toy in the back. Luckily once I moved over the crafts & celebrations we had enough space on top of the aisles that the majority of our merchandise was on the floor, and most of the stuff that was in the back was just duplicates of what was on the floor.

As for "constantly"... how am I supposed to know what requests or demands other customers make and be treated like shit because other customers annoyed the staff first?

It's just luck of the draw really.

Granted, I do pick up on it sometimes, especially over the phone with a customer service person. They seem defensive, and I tell them (provided they've been reasonably courteous up to that point) that I realize they must get yelled at a lot by other people, but I am not angry with them (the agent) personally, just the situation, and I hope they can help. That usually calms things down a bit and we go from there. Sometimes things get resolved, and sometimes not. The moment they trot out "the pandemic" as an excuse for bullshit that was bullshit well before the pandemic is when I start to get irate.

That sounds like the best way to approach things, and it would be nice if more costumers actually did.

Customers pick up on the associated body language. Just because you might not voice your opinions out loud, they can still come across loud and clear through actions, eye movements, tone of voice, and so on.

Well, there's only so much you can do to control the involuntary reactions when you're trying to do a 2 person, 9 hour job by yourself in 6, with a boss on your ass because you're going to slow, and you have costumers stopping you every 5 minutes to ask where a certain type of paint is, or to cut 5 different yards of fabric, or to know where something that you've never heard of, that's not even in your department is, or wants to know when you'll get more of a certain color of paper plates is, or this, or that, or the other thing. No matter how hard you try, after a while that starts to get to you.

It's fine if you really do know your stock, but my experience with that was in a craft store, and they had reorganized the place since my previous visit. All I did was ask where they'd moved a certain kind of crochet thread to (since none of it was in the aisle where it used to be) and the clerk got a blank look on her face and tried to tell me that they didn't sell that - even though I had just bought some recently. I called her on it, and said that if they didn't have any currently, that was one thing. But don't try to tell me they had never sold it, because I knew differently. There used to be a lot of craft stores in my city, but not so many that I didn't know exactly where I bought specific items, because there were many items that were only sold in one particular store. This was simply a case of customer asks for something the clerk was unfamiliar with and the clerk couldn't be bothered finding out the answer and instead chose to be dismissive and rude.

Yes, that one is on her, but I had the opposite happen more times than I can count. And when I did run into those situations, I would often take the person to the area where that kind of stuff was, just to show them that we didn't have it.
And to be clear, I only said that when I knew with absolute certainty we didn't have it, if there was even a chance we did, I would take them to the section of the department where it would be.

That's very good to know. I've seen store employees be openly rude to disabled people if we take too long to pay, too long to pack our groceries, too long to move, and holy crap, the public needs to be educated on etiquette when it comes to mobility aids. No, you may not "just move" my walker out of your way without my permission. If it's in your way, tell me and I will move it. This thing is what gives me the ability to leave my home and go to appointments and shopping and even just out for a stroll without being at risk of running out of energy between somewhere and nowhere and risking a fall. You don't just put your hands on someone's walker and push or pull it any more than you'd do with someone's wheelchair or crutches. Deliberately moving it out of my reach if I'm sitting on a chair means I'm trapped on that chair, since I don't know if I'll keep my balance when I get up.

One of my older sisters is in a wheel chair, and she's actually had random strangers just walk up and start pushing her chair without her permission.

The people in Walmart were usually good about this. The people in a particular electronics store can all go to hell for the way they acted like I was deliberately inconveniencing them by not being able to read signs, and not able to read their minds when they pointed "over there." All I wanted was an extension cord. All they needed to do was show me where they were. I'd have picked one out, bought it, and been on my way. Three minutes, tops. Instead, it was an ordeal that took a hell of a lot longer.

I remember one young stock clerk in the Walmart pharmacy being very surprised one day when I said to him, "I've come for a particular brand of _____ but can't read the labels. Could you spare a couple of minutes to help find this?" (and handed him the piece of paper someone had written the information on). He was surprised at being asked to be someone else's eyes, but was helpful and polite and found it right away.

I don't need to ask about this anymore, as fortunately I did have surgery and can now read the signs in stores (though I need reading glasses for up close label-reading). The irony is that now that I can read signs in stores, I have to stay away from stores due to covid. I haven't been to the local Walmart for nearly two years.

Most of the people I worked with her good people, and most of the time when things got ugly it was pretty much all on the customers.

There was one woman who clerked at a second-hand bookstore nearly 40 years ago who for some reason didn't like to see me come in, didn't like me browsing the science fiction, and her entire body language had a GTFO vibe to it. I don't know if she was suspicious because I was a teenager at the time, or that she thought it was weird that a 19-year-old female would be into science fiction instead of the romance section. She may have assumed that everyone my age was a shoplifter (the store did have decent security so I don't see how they could miss anyone attempting to shoplift).

I remember one day, she snarked that "we haven't gotten anything new in since the last time you were here" - in a hostile tone of voice that was clearly meant to get me to leave NOW.

I just told her that sometimes I saw something that I planned to come back for another time, or I'd just found a new author to check out. I never called her on her nasty attitude, and thankfully she left that place within the next few months.

I don't get this, you'd think she'd just be happy to make any kind of a sale to anyone.
I actually have the opposite reaction to that lady, I always get a kick out of seeing people who are going for things I wouldn't expect.
I still remember the little girl who was all excited about getting to pick out a Hot Wheels car, and her parents seemed more than happy to let her.

 

[fireproof78]

OK, this is my last post on this topic, I promise.

Quote tags?

 

[FormerLurker]

I apologize profusely for this, but I couldn't help myself.

This was the hardest truth I had to learn in business. People rarely mean what they say.

“Then you should say what you mean,” the March Hare went on. “I do,” Alice hastily replied; “at least–at least I mean what I say–that's the same thing, you know.” “Not the same thing a bit!” said the Hatter.

 

[Timewalker]

Getting back to the OT, fans often think that because they love something and have memorized and scrutinized chapter and verse things the creators have probably forgotten, that somehow this makes them Templar Knights, keepers of the flame, and creates the illusion and, frankly, delusion, that they know better than the professionals.

Generally, though, they don’t. They’re mostly like audiences with no musical ability telling a professional player how to do their job. A very few are occasionally right, but mostly they’ve no idea what they’re talking about.

And just sometimes the audience does know what they're talking about - apparently a hell of a lot more than the people who made the show, movie, or whatever.

Example: The TV show Reign is held up as a notorious example of how NOT to make a historical drama series. Nearly everything about it is factually WRONG. The only things they got right were the fact that Mary, Queen of Scots was a real person, as were the main members of the French royal family, and Queen Elizabeth I.

OK, this is my last post on this topic, I promise.

I'll be happy to reply once you fix your quote tags.

And please forgive a nitpick, but a "costumer" is someone who creates and makes costumes. A "customer" is someone who buys stuff.

 

[JD]

Fixed my last post.

 

[suarezguy]

Getting back to the OT, fans often think that because they love something and have memorized and scrutinized chapter and verse things the creators have probably forgotten, that somehow this makes them Templar Knights, keepers of the flame

Well not exclusive keepers but if they didn't buy/watch something, including during the times when few did, there would be no more product and the professionals couldn't continue making a living.

and creates the illusion and, frankly, delusion, that they know better than the professionals.

A lot of professionals do make very bad products.

 

[thribs]

Being a fan certainly helps. It’s a reason why shows like Mandalorian have a better reception than the sequel movies. The people behind them are fans and know what works and what doesn’t.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't trust fans. They are often unwilling to kill their darlings and play it extremely safe. Star Wars is a prime example.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I expect you'd have to go back to the 70s or 80s to find a Star Wars project that wasn't filled with fans top to bottom. Everything that George Lucas hasn't written, all the great episodes, all the bad movies, they've all been authored by fans. Probably. I'm making some assumptions here.

All of the worst fan fiction is by fans, all of the best forum arguments are by fans, but I know that if my car breaks down I'd want someone who knows how a car works to fix it, and if my favourite franchise is getting a spin-off I'd want someone who knows how it works to write it.

 

[JD]

Being a fan certainly helps. It’s a reason why shows like Mandalorian have a better reception than the sequel movies. The people behind them are fans and know what works and what doesn’t.

I'm pretty sure JJ Abrams and the rest of the team behind the sequels were huge fans, I really think a lot of the issues people had stem from the fact that Abrams and co. were trying a huge fans, who didn't take the kind of chances non-fans would have taken.

 

[thribs]

Abrams just isn’t a very good storyteller. Didn’t help that they rushed TFA out as well.

 

[DigificWriter]

Anyone claiming that the individuals behind the Sequel Trilogy were not Star Wars fans is lying.

 

[fireproof78]

if my favourite franchise is getting a spin-off I'd want someone who knows how it works to write it.

I want some who knows how to write to write it.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I have to admit, if the only two options were a writer who isn't a fan, and a fan who can't write, I'd probably go with the writer to do the writing. Especially now that online wikis are so convenient! It's not usually a choice they have to make though.

 

[fireproof78]

I have to admit, if the only two options were a writer who isn't a fan, and a fan who can't write, I'd probably go with the writer to do the writing. Especially now that online wikis are so convenient! It's not usually a choice they have to make though.

But, it isn't just writing based upon knowledge. Writers are coming in to create their own story within the world.

 

[Timewalker]

OK, this is my last post on this topic, I promise.

Milk is a very bad example, because there is a very limited, very open space where milk is in the backs of store. A better example of what I'm talking about would be if someone is looking for a specific action figure, which would be in a small box, in the toys sections of the backroom, which is one in stores like the one where I worked is of the bigger areas in the back, with three or four huge shelves stacked with dozens of boxes from the floor almost to the ceiling, some as small as barely a foot wide. I'm pretty sure there had to have been times I spent at least 15 - 20 minutes searching for a specific toy in the back. Luckily once I moved over the crafts & celebrations we had enough space on top of the aisles that the majority of our merchandise was on the floor, and most of the stuff that was in the back was just duplicates of what was on the floor.

We're each talking about our own personal experiences. Mine involved milk, as in I needed it, it wasn't on the shelf, so I politely asked someone to please check in the back to see if they had any that hadn't been put out yet, and they did. So I got my milk, said 'thank you', paid for my groceries, and went home a satisfied customer.

Well, there's only so much you can do to control the involuntary reactions when you're trying to do a 2 person, 9 hour job by yourself in 6, with a boss on your ass because you're going to slow, and you have costumers stopping you every 5 minutes to ask where a certain type of paint is, or to cut 5 different yards of fabric, or to know where something that you've never heard of, that's not even in your department is, or wants to know when you'll get more of a certain color of paper plates is, or this, or that, or the other thing. No matter how hard you try, after a while that starts to get to you.

No doubt, but my point is that you should never assume the customer can't read negative body language and this might be enough to tip the scales into making the interaction even more unpleasant.

One of my older sisters is in a wheel chair, and she's actually had random strangers just walk up and start pushing her chair without her permission.

That's despicable. I hope she told them off. Far too many disabled people don't speak up for themselves, as they're afraid to "cause trouble."

This is why I've become an advocate for the disabled tenants in this building, pointing out safety hazards to the management and maintenance staff. I haven't yet had to actually say the words, "you could be sued for not fixing this situation" but I think they got the drift in a couple of cases when an elderly tenant in a wheelchair could have ended up in the hospital.

I have had to contend with the manager claiming, "You're the ONLY one who ever complains about this" (whatever issue "this" might be), and I tell him, "No, I am not. I might be the only one who complains to you, but I'm definitely not the only one who complains. Some tenants are afraid to complain to management, for fear that some excuse might be given to evict them."

And this "next tenant" bullshit... honestly, keep your current tenants happy and you'll have fewer "next tenants" to worry about.

I don't get this, you'd think she'd just be happy to make any kind of a sale to anyone.
I actually have the opposite reaction to that lady, I always get a kick out of seeing people who are going for things I wouldn't expect.
I still remember the little girl who was all excited about getting to pick out a Hot Wheels car, and her parents seemed more than happy to let her.

Yeah, it was bizarre. It's like she was personally offended that I'd pop in once, sometimes twice, a week. This was in the early '80s, and I was very much a dedicated book hunter back then, trying out new science fiction authors (new to me) and trying to collect all the books in specific series.

Things got weird in another way. This store I'm talking about was the second of the second-hand bookstores to open downtown. The first one had already been around for something like 20 years. When each owner found out that I shopped for science fiction books at both places, each started asking questions about the other. Finally, after numerous questions of "what prices does she charge for novels/comics" or "what are her policies for people bringing in books" I finally said to both of them, "Look, I shop at both your stores, you each do things a little differently but not enough to make a huge difference, and don't put me in the middle." I did not say (though felt like saying it), "Don't use me to spy on your competitor."

I patronized both places for years, until the second place was sold to someone who turned it into a primarily comic shop (though he kept the science fiction section). The other place became a combination bookstore/craft store. So I figured after some 20-odd years of being a customer, I'd ask if I could consign some of my needlework crafts there (I'd already been selling in other stores and at craft fairs). At first she said no, and I said, just let me bring in some samples and then decide, since it's not reasonable to say no, sight unseen. Both of us would make a bit of money, and there's no reason I wouldn't still browse the books when I came in.

Well, she did like the samples I brought, and after I promised that she would have the exclusive on these items and I wouldn't sell them in anyone else's store, she agreed. This arrangement continued until she sold the store to someone else (her husband's job got transferred to another city so her only option was to sell and move).

It was a bit sad, her having to sell... I remember when she'd moved her old store a couple of places over to this one (a bit larger), and I'd been passing by one day before she'd re-opened. She was looking at paint and carpet samples, and asked my opinion on colors. I told her, "Green carpet, shades of green for the shelves, light-colored walls. It's relaxing, people will stay longer, browse longer, and there'll be more likelihood that they'll find something they want to buy."

She took my advice, and it seems to have worked. She never changed it in all the years from then until selling.

 

[TommyR01D]

Anyone who says "the fans think" or "the fans want" is lying to make their own opinion sound more important, or just delusional. There is no fannish consensus on anything, including who counts as a fan.

I don't think fandoms have universal consensus, even if it seems that the majority have a particular viewpoint about any given upcoming release. So some of the fans will turn out to be right and some will turn out to be wrong.

Kor

Indeed, fans are not a hivemind. There is no such thing as the fandom. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no fandom can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first...

I find it a little strange that so many in this thread are condemning "fans" or "the fandom" as if they are themselves not part of it. It's reminiscent of politicians decrying "the political class" or "the establishment".

Whenever sweeping statements are made about "fans" it's nearly always disparaging. Fans liked an episode you didn't? "Uh, stupid fans'll clap anything!" Fans didn't like an episode you did? "Come on fans, lighten up!".

Perhaps, on some level, it's an attempt to make yourself seem better (or rather, closer to "normal people" or God forbid "the real world") by putting down fandom as a faceless whole. You're not like those other fans. You're one of the good ones. You know your place. It's all an elaborate virtue signal - though to whom they're signalling is not exactly clear.

All of the worst fan fiction is by fans, all of the best forum arguments are by fans.

100% of married men die.

 

[Steve Roby]

Perhaps, on some level, it's an attempt to make yourself seem better (or rather, closer to "normal people" or God forbid "the real world") by putting down fandom as a faceless whole. You're not like those other fans. You're one of the good ones. You know your place. It's all an elaborate virtue signal - though to whom they're signalling is not exactly clear.

Not so much virtue signalling as self-aggrandizement. "You're all sheep, I am the clear-eyed, intelligent viewer with devastating insights into what's really going on, so watch my latest three-hour-long youtube video."

100% of married men die.

Not sure that works. I was a married man and I'm not now. I didn't die. My wife did. If I die today, it won't be as a married man.

 

[fireproof78]

I find it a little strange that so many in this thread are condemning "fans" or "the fandom" as if they are themselves not part of it.

I am a part of it and I suck. I am not ignorant of this fact.

ETA:

I'm pretty sure JJ Abrams and the rest of the team behind the sequels were huge fans, I really think a lot of the issues people had stem from the fact that Abrams and co. were trying a huge fans, who didn't take the kind of chances non-fans would have taken.

Indeed. It's amusing as to hear people not slam Abrams for doing Star Wars wrong after slamming him for doing Star Trek wrong and telling him to go do Star Wars. There's a reason why I don't trust fans, myself included, We have significant blind spots, and those blind spots make us rather irrational, including in our hatred of production teams. Lucas was widely reviled and now people treat him as some sort of second coming if he were to come back.

It's the same as the attitude with retail workers and customers. I see the same generalizations of "all retailers suck!" and "employees suck" and "customers suck." We're generalizing everything, including how people are going to react. Fun fact: not every reaction is based upon what you think it is. ​