Star Trek is not, and never was, particularly progressive

[Watersluis]

*predicts that this will be about LGBT representation in Star Trek and not progressivism in general*

That was only a small part of my original text: I talked about race, about Russians characters in T.O.S., about that aliens still have to follow U.S.A. gender roles, and about omitting soviet achievements from Enterprise' intro sequence, all of which has nothing to do with any “l.g.b.t. repræsentation”. In fact, I never mentioned that at all, only “same-sex intercourse”, which is another case where Star Trek often fails to color outside of the box. The same-sex intercourse of Lower Decks were not part of any “l.g.b.t. repræsentation”, and no line in it implies that such a cultural concept in that title exists.

Similarly, even though the physical forms of both Odo and the female founder are the male and female gender, they actually have no gender and are genderfluid representation. Meaning Kira is in a relationship with a genderfluid person, also very progressive for its time.

The semi-official name of the character is “The Female Changeling”, because a “smurfette principle” needed to be added on top of it.

Yes, biologically they seem to be sexless organisms, though nothing was canonically stated, and it was never mentioned how they reproduce, but in the human conception they have “genders”. My problem is that even sexless organisms whose true form is a liquid are given “genders” in the psychological sense. — It does not make sense and they obviously would not even consider such a thing and many comments by changelings make it very clear that they do not even consider humanoid forms of a particular importance; they use it to communicate with humanoids to put them at east, but among their own they are usually liquid. The idea that they on a psychological level seem to have a “gender” is obviously absurd.

 

[Danja]

How about Discovery, which has:

• Two gay male characters in a relationship: Stamets and Culber
• A butch lesbian female character: Reno
• A non-binary character: Adira
• A transgendered male character: Grey

You left out Discovery, almost on purpose it seems like. Either that, or you haven't watched much of it (if any).

Star Trek was way behind on gay portrayals in the '80s, '90s, and '00s -- and it's right to criticize the track-record there -- but it's leading the charge with transgendered characters and non-binary characters with Discovery in the 2020s.

Don't blame the Kurtzman Era for the sins of the Berman Era. They're two different regimes.

It's extremely irritating ("SMG wasn't the first black female Captain! Madge Sinclair was the first black Captain! ")

There's a world of difference between being a lead and being an extra.

The same has often been said of Janeway ("Janeway wasn't the first! What about Elizabeth Shelby?")

The franchise, in general, strives to be progressive. It does have hits and misses given it's the work of human hands (and their inherent biases and blind spots).

 

[Lord Garth]

This just feels like concern trolling to me.

Yup. I suspected it at first, and then knew it once the goalposts were shifted. "Star Trek was never progressive and doesn't have representation!" "Well, actually it was progressive in the 1960s and it didn't have the type of representation it has today first!"

 

[Oddish]

Star Trek had to make money, and perhaps it didn't want to irritate its older fanbase, who were fine with black/white kissing and women in the captain's chair, but not quite so eager for same-sex romance. Or the young males of the 80's and 90's, many of whom were quite homophobic. Remember that the decades-long media campaign to legitimize the LGBT+ community had yet to happen.

Also, the franchise was being headed by a man who was not known for being willing to try new things or take risks. Look what happened with Voyager.

 

[Watersluis]

Yup. I suspected it at first, and then knew it once the goalposts were shifted. "Star Trek was never progressive and doesn't have representation!" "Well, actually it was progressive in the 1960s and it didn't have the type of representation it has today first!"

I never use the word “repræsentation” and my original o.p. already remarked that T.O.S. was somewhat, though not extraordinarily progressive for it's time. — No goalpost has ever been shifted; you simply read something in it that was never there if you thought it was about “l.g.b.t repræsentation” which it didn't mention.

Star Trek had to make money, and perhaps it didn't want to irritate its older fanbase, who were fine with black/white kissing and women in the captain's chair, but not quite so eager for same-sex romance. Or the young males of the 80's and 90's, many of whom were quite homophobic. Remember that the decades-long media campaign to legitimize the LGBT+ community had yet to happen.

Also, the franchise was being headed by a man who was not known for being willing to try new things or take risks. Look what happened with Voyager.

This is no excuse when other franchises simply did it better. — I often see arguments that it's necessary in fiction to give species and constructs human-like “genders” that have no business having it, but many titles did not do so and the critics and audiences were often positive about it.

Ghost in the Shell aired in 1995 and truly drove the point home that as a computer program, The Puppet Master has no gender; he exists for the moment in a female-looking shell, because that was available to him, but speaks in a deep, masculine voice. In Star Trek, artificial constructs often find their way to having a “gender” when this makes no sense. “The Doctor” even remarks that they are not “equipped” with genitals, but he seems to still have a “gender” and all his love interests are female because even computer programs in Star Trek couldn't go there lest Rick Berman be offended.

 

[Commander Troi]

Interesting, and mostly valid, points being made all around here.

@KamenRiderBlade is totally on point here - ST is made in the US and (originally) aimed at a US audience and aired by a US-based corporation. Additionally, I believe most (all?) writers for the show are from the US. And the US is still waaaaay behind on issues of gender and sexuality compared to much of Europe (which I blame on the political & financial influence of our specific type of nutball Evangelicals). This is (sadly) also the reason for not appropriately honoring Soviet space milestones.

I remember the comments made about a female security officer (Yar) back when TNG first aired, those made about a Black commander when DS9 first aired, and OMG the bullshit when it was announced that Voyager's captain would be a woman!

And just when I thought we were past most of this, the racist & sexist shit that happened with the Star Wars sequels made me downright ASHAMED to be a member of Fandom.

The fact that ST has even *tried* (however poorly sometimes) amazes me!

You mentioned Orphan Black (which I loved) - that was a Canadian show of SyFy. Pretty much all the Canadian shows on SyFy dealt with sex and gender and sexuality (Lost Girl anyone?) better than 99% of US TV. Plus, SyFy was (is?) a "niche" network and gets away with alot. They may be owned by a huge corporation, but Average US Viewer isn't watching them.

Ghost in the Shell is Japanese, and Anime (IME) ranges wildly from super "out there" to ultra "old fashioned".

I do completely agree with you about the Changelings and the EMH - just stupid. But, as @Oddish points out, much of fandom was still very homophobic back then. Sadly, much of the US still is, and *really* has no clue about trans and non-binary folks!

I'd like to see more boundary pushing too - alien races are a terrific way to do that! We, as fans, need to make sure TPTB know it.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I was honestly hoping for Michelle Yeoh to be the first Asian Captain on screen to get main Captain status with a regular role on a TV series as "The Captain".

But they killed her off in the 2nd ep of DISCO and made her a recurring character.

We have not had enough Asian representation, much less accurate Asian representation.

While George Takei played a Japanese Man in Hikaru Sulu.

There was no Asian representation on TNG or DS9.

It wasn't until Voyager that we got Garret Wang playing Harry Kim, but Hollywood made a Chinese man play a Korean character.

In Enterprise, you had Linda Park, a Korean-American actress portraying a Japanese women in Hoshi Sato.

It wasn't until Discovery that we have Patrick Kwok-Choon portraying generic Asian Bridge officer in the background Gen Rhys.

There's never been any authentic German representation in the main cast as far as I can remember.

Only one North African representative actor in Alexander Siddig (He's of Suddanese origin).

We still haven't had a proper French character played by a French Actor as part of the main cast.

Same with true Canadian character portrayed by a true Canadian Actor.

While James T Kirk was played by Canadian Actor William Shatner, he played a American Character.

There's so many parts of Earth that hasn't gotten any real representation on the main cast.

We only had a British man play a French-men with Patrick Stewart & Jean-Luc Picard

The other Brit to properly play a British man was Dominic Keating wtih Malcolm Reed.

We got our first Caucasian American Male Captain with Anson Mount portraying Christopher Pike.

What about Sweedish Actors, what about Finland, what about Italian?

There are so many cultures and Actors from said cultures that need representation, and proper representation from that area.

Don't make one actor from a different culture portray one that they are not from, it's not really necessary.

 

[Watersluis]

@KamenRiderBlade is totally on point here - ST is made in the US and (originally) aimed at a US audience and aired by a US-based corporation. Additionally, I believe most (all?) writers for the show are from the US. And the US is still waaaaay behind on issues of gender and sexuality compared to much of Europe (which I blame on the political & financial influence of our specific type of nutball Evangelicals). This is (sadly) also the reason for not appropriately honoring Soviet space milestones.

You mentioned Orphan Black (which I loved) - that was a Canadian show of SyFy. Pretty much all the Canadian shows on SyFy dealt with sex and gender and sexuality (Lost Girl anyone?) better than 99% of US TV. Plus, SyFy was (is?) a "niche" network and gets away with alot. They may be owned by a huge corporation, but Average US Viewer isn't watching them.

I was originally going to say that being a U.S.A. title is no excuse, because other U.S.A. titles did not fall into these problems, but you are correct that U.S.A. titles certainly more often fall into these rigid formulæ than those from other countries.

There were definitely problems with StarGate, but far more than Star Trek they acknowledged that the Goa'uld and Asgard were species without a male–female sex system, and Goa'uld were shown to be freely alternate between different sexes in their hosts, but they did follow the rule that all “queens” had to have female hosts, and they had similar problems with the Wraith in Atlantis as well as romantic couplings primarily based on the sexes of hosts. Even Star Trek of course touched upon this when the Trills were first introduced.

Ghost in the Shell is Japanese, and Anime (IME) ranges wildly from super "out there" to ultra "old fashioned".

It is Japanese, and in general Japanese media is certainly better at this I find, which is perhaps also due to the language. I remember that in Parasyte, the English subtitles use “he” and “she” alternating based on the host on the parasites, whereas in the original Japanese simply makes no references to of their genders and does not bother to address the issue beyond the fact that it is a mystery even to them that they are seemingly a species without reproductive capabilities.

But still, I do not find this an excuse to justify the reputation that Star Trek, but perhaps this is simply the common U.S.A. isolationist bubble, and when U.S.A. residents say that Star Trek is “progressive”, they mean “for a U.S.A. production”, as they know little else.

It does seem to be the case thinking of it that U.S.A. culture is more holistic about gender, and Japanese culture seems to be more reductionist, at least in it's media, and more willing to take it apart and recombine it based on it's features. There was a very popular character in Interspecies Reviewers recently: an angel who is simply said to have both a penis and a vulva, beyond that the dialog does not raise or answer what his gender might be, but the English subtitles use “he” for convenience. — Japanese more often simply describe the relevant features of their characters, and beyond that do not dive into considering what their genders would be. In The Orville, we have the absurdity of an “all male species” whose reproductive process as described is clearly hermaphroditic in nature: they can all become pregnant and lay eggs from another member of their species, yet they are “male” because they are said to be.

 

[Watersluis]

While George Takei played a Japanese Man in Hikaru Sulu.

Actually, he is from the U.S.A.; I thought he was Japanese too because of the name and because his child was also given a Japanese name, but he is from the U.S.A., canonically.

It wasn't until Voyager that we got Garret Wang playing Harry Kim, but Hollywood made a Chinese man play a Korean character.

Harry Kim is also from the U.S.A., so is Garret Wang; in this case the English names should give that away.

In Enterprise, you had Linda Park, a Korean-American actress portraying a Japanese women in Hoshi Sato.

This is correct.

Only one North African representative actor in Alexander Siddig (He's of Suddanese origin).

Alexander Siddi is as British as the character he portrays.

There's so many parts of Earth that hasn't gotten any real representation on the main cast.

This is definitely so, too many characters from the U.S.A..

The other Brit to properly play a British man was Dominic Keating wtih Malcolm Reed.

Bashir? Bashir might be more British than Reed, whom I've not seen play as much darts, tennis, James Bond, and re-enact historical British battles.

Though I definitely share your opinion that the cast of Star Trek has always been too U.S.A.-centric, and even the characters that technically weren't such as Uhura spoke with North American accents, I gain the impression you think a man cannot be British if he not be white. There is nothing North-African about Bashir except for an Arabic family name; he is English, and so are his parents.

Actually, revisiting and thinking about the Germans and Finns; you made me realize there are only two “white” characters whose native language is not English: Chekov and Picard, both invented by Gene Roddenberry who clearly went out to first create the character and his ethnicity, and then find the actor.

In all other cases, the ethnicity of the character follows that of the actor. It seems to me they simply cast an actor, who happened to be Irish, and then they realized they could make the character Irish, which is why we do not have Finns, Germans, Czechs, or any of that. In the case of a white character they simply defaulted to the U.S.A., unless the actor himself provided reasons not to do so. In the case of Chekov, Roddenberry obviously specifically wanted a Russian character to show the cold war was a thing of the past.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Actually, he is from the U.S.A.; I thought he was Japanese too because of the name and because his child was also given a Japanese name, but he is from the U.S.A., canonically.

He might be American in nationality, but his original Ethnicity is Japanese.

Harry Kim is also from the U.S.A., so is Garret Wang; in this case the English names should give that away.

Garret Wang is of American Nationality, but is of Taiwanese descent and ethnically Taiwanese/Chinese.

Alexander Siddig is as British as the character he portrays.

He was born in Sudan, but grew up in Britain. Alexander's mom, Gloria, is the older sister of Malcom McDowell.

Malcom McDowell, Alexander Siddig's Uncle, played Dr. Tolian Soran in ST: Generations.

It's interesting how family members end up playing characters in Star Trek.

Bashir? Bashir might be more British than Reed, whom I've not seen play as much darts, tennis, James Bond, and re-enact historical British battles.

There were no Holodecks aboard the NX-01, or much time for fun during that era.

Though I definitely share your opinion that the cast of Star Trek has always been too U.S.A.-centric, and even the characters that technically weren't such as Uhura spoke with North American accents, I gain the impression you think a man cannot be British if he not be white. There is nothing North-African about Bashir except for an Arabic family name; he is English, and so are his parents.

His father is of Sudanese origin, but Alexander grew up in London.

 

[Lord Garth]

Or the young males of the 80's and 90's, many of whom were quite homophobic.

Yup. And a lot of them grew up to become part of the Fandom Menace who make the people who don't like Discovery for legitimate reasons (not "they made it woke!") look bad.

 

[Watersluis]

He might be American in nationality, but his original Ethnicity is Japanese.

No, he was born in San-Fransico in the U.S.A.; he is both by ethnicity and nationality from the U.S.A..

Garret Wang is of American Nationality, but is of Taiwanese descent and ethnically Taiwanese/Chinese.

Garret Wang was also born in San-Fransisco, looking it up.

I feel you simply feel a man cannot be from the U.S.A. if he not be white. The U.S.A. is all these people knew and spent all their lives in.

He was born in Sudan, but grew up in Britain. Alexander's mom, Gloria, is the older sister of Malcom McDowell.

He was born in Sudan, yes, but he has no memories of it and came to England when was two years old, and has said in an interview that he never realized he had Arabic ancestry before the attacks on the World Trade Center.

Do you also believe that John McCain is Panamese? or that Richard Dawkins is a Kenyan?, a man who actually still has memories of living in Kenya I might add. — I, frankness be, suspect this to be a matter of skin color, not one of birth and origin.

 

[dupersuper]

They are meant to “look like America” in a contemporary and slightly idealized fashion.

They are? I thought they were supposed to look like an interspecies fleet that included a united Earth...

In Star Trek, artificial constructs often find their way to having a “gender” when this makes no sense. “The Doctor” even remarks that they are not “equipped” with genitals, but he seems to still have a “gender” and all his love interests are female because even computer programs in Star Trek couldn't go there lest Rick Berman be offended.

I agree with your general point, but you may have picked a bad example as the creator of the EMH (Zimmerman) specifically based it on himself.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No, he was born in San-Fransico in the U.S.A.; he is both by ethnicity and nationality from the U.S.A..

"USA" isn't an ethnicity. People in the USA come from various ethnic backgrounds. Takei spent time in an internment camp because of his ethnic background and in spite of his national origin.

 

[Danja]

He might be American in nationality, but his original Ethnicity is Japanese.


Garret Wang is of American Nationality, but is of Taiwanese descent and ethnically Taiwanese/Chinese


His father is of Sudanese origin, but Alexander grew up in London.

Whatever happened to ACTING?

When I see Seven and her latex implants onscreen, I know full well Jeri Ryan is an actor playing a role.

There IS such a thing as "suspension of disbelief."

I'm surprised you people aren't criticizing Leonard Nimoy for taking a part away from an actual alien.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Ethnicity may be construed as an inherited or as a societally imposed construct. Ethnic membership tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language, or dialect, symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, art, or physical appearance. Ethnic groups may share a narrow or broad spectrum of genetic ancestry, depending on group identification, with many groups having mixed genetic ancestry.[4][5][6] Ethnic groups often continue to speak related languages.

No, he was born in San-Fransico in the U.S.A.; he is both by ethnicity and nationality from the U.S.A..

He's Japanese-American Ethnically. Nationality wise, he's American.

Garret Wang was also born in San-Fransisco, looking it up.

I feel you simply feel a man cannot be from the U.S.A. if he not be white. The U.S.A. is all these people knew and spent all their lives in.

You can be from the USA and not be white.

I'm from the USA, I'm not white, I grew up here; I'm still Taiwanese-American ethnically.

It's called being of Hybrid Ethnic backgrounds.

I got to have lived the experience of both ethnic heritages of being American & Taiwanese.

No, he was born in San-Fransico in the U.S.A.; he is both by ethnicity and nationality from the U.S.A..

He was born in Riverside CA to Taiwanese-Americans. He's Taiwanese-American, just like me.
Nationality wise, he's from the USA.

He was born in Sudan, yes, but he has no memories of it and came to England when was two years old, and has said in an interview that he never realized he had Arabic ancestry before the attacks on the World Trade Center.

That just means he didn't realize his Ethnic ancestry.

Do you also believe that John McCain is Panamese? or that Richard Dawkins is a Kenyan?, a man who actually still has memories of living in Kenya I might add. — I, frankness be, suspect this to be a matter of skin color, not one of birth and origin.

It's a matter of Genetic Ancestry, not skin color.

 

[Watersluis]

I agree with your general point, but you may have picked a bad example as the creator of the EMH (Zimmerman) specifically based it on himself.

Which in and of itself is strange enough. Surely such a construct should come with skins that the patient can choose to make himself most comfortable.
Clearly holographic speech synthesis and facial expressions are not impressive; those happen on the holodeck every day for a platitude of characters. The impressive part is the medical skill, which can come with any skin the patient desires. There is no need to tie him to any species or gender and some patient might even favor a more abstract repræsentation of a humanoid form.

"USA" isn't an ethnicity. People in the USA come from various ethnic backgrounds.

As all countries in the Americas are, but in the U.S.A. such things as “Brazilian” are even washed away and lumped together with countries that don't even speak the same language under “Latin-American” as though that term have meaning.

The U.S.A. is as much an ethnicity as any other country. This mindset is born from the very mentality this topic criticizes that a shocking number of U.S.A. residents seem to have of how the U.S.A. to them is the centre of the world. The U.S.A. is not special, and not exceptional, no matter how much it likes to think it is.

Takei spent time in an internment camp because of his ethnic background and in spite of his national origin.

So were Germans who had but a single drop of Jewish blood; they were still Germans who lived all their lives in Germany and spoke only German.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Whatever happened to ACTING?

The people are tired of White Washing in Hollywood.

When I see Seven and her latex implants onscreen, I know full well Jeri Ryan is an actor playing a role.

And she played a Human being that was assimilated by the Borg.

There IS such a thing as "suspension of disbelief."

Up to a point, we don't want to see another White Guy portraying a Asian character.

There are plenty of Asian Actors out there that can do the job.

If you want a Japanese Character, then hire a Japanese Actor.

Don't just substitute him with random Asian to fill the role.

I'm surprised you people aren't criticizing Leonard Nimoy for taking a part away from an actual alien.

Leonard Nimoy defined what it is to be ½ Human & ½ Vulcan.

As all countries in the Americas are, but in the U.S.A. such things as “Brazilian” are even washed away and lumped together with countries that don't even speak the same language under “Latin-American” as though that term have meaning.

Latin-American:

Latin Americans (Spanish: Latinoamericanos; Portuguese: Latino-americanos; French: Latino-américains) are the citizens of Latin American countries (or people with cultural, ancestral or national origins in Latin America). Latin American countries and their diasporas are multi-ethnic and multi-racial. Latin Americans are a pan-ethnicity consisting of people of different ethnic and national backgrounds. As a result, some Latin Americans do not take their nationality as an ethnicity, but identify themselves with a combination of their nationality, ethnicity and their ancestral origins.[18] Aside from the Indigenous Amerindian population, all Latin Americans have some Old World ancestors who arrived since 1492. Latin America has the largest diasporas of Spaniards, Portuguese, black Africans, Italians, Lebanese and Japanese in the world.[19][20][21] The region also has large German (second largest after the United States),[22] French, Palestinian (largest outside the Arab states),[23] Chinese and Jewish diasporas.

The specific ethnic and/or racial composition varies from country to country and diaspora community to diaspora community: many have a predominance of European-Amerindian or mestizo, population; in others, Amerindians are a majority; some are mostly inhabited by people of European ancestry; others are primarily mulatto.[18][24] Various black, Asian and zambo (mixed black and Amerindian) minorities are also identified in most countries.[24] The largest single group are white Latin Americans.[18] Together with the people of part European ancestry, they combine for almost the totality of the population.[18]

Latin Americans and their descendants can be found almost everywhere in the world, particularly in densely populated urban areas. The most important migratory destinations for Latin Americans are found in the United States, Spain, Canada, Italy and Japan.

The U.S.A. is as much an ethnicity as any other country. This mindset is born from the very mentality this topic criticizes that a shocking number of U.S.A. residents seem to have of how the U.S.A. to them is the centre of the world. The U.S.A. is not special, and not exceptional, no matter how much it likes to think it is.

The USA is a Nation-State, it's a Multi-cultural, Multi-ethnic country that uses English as it's primary language.

To Americans, the USA is the center of the world.

I'm sure that mentality is true of every citizen of their specific nation.

To them, their nation is the center of the world.

Every country thinks their special, exceptional.

At the end of the day, what do you have to back that claim up.

 

[Vger23]

 

[Danja]

Up to a point, we don't want to see another White Guy portraying a Asian character.

Understandable.

There are plenty of Asian Actors out there that can do the job.

If you want a Japanese Character, then hire a Japanese Actor.

Don't just substitute him with random Asian to fill the role.

What if one isn't available? What if they can't play the part correctly? That won't accomplish anything.

I'm 1/2 Native American (Cherokee Indian). I empathize with you. I had issues with Chakotay.

Every other word out of a NA's mouth seems to be pseudo-mystical gibberish (I'm watching my people die from Covid-19).

Do you know what it's like to watch your people's language being reduced to "How," "Kemo Sabe," and "Ugh"? Or to watch your people serve as set dressing for a white person's "resurrection"? (I'm looking at YOU, "Dances With Wolves"!)

Chakotay -- he had no past, no history, no culture. His primary function seemed to be sputtering metaphysical nonsense!

We Natives have real problems (poverty, suicide, substance abuse issues, etc.). Things that White America has taken for granted for decades (clean water, maintained roads, etc.) are still trickling onto tribal lands.

In the 24th century, Native Americans have been reduced to being metaphysical vending machines sputtering fortune cookie philosophy!