Star Trek is not, and never was, particularly progressive

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Watersluis, Dec 23, 2021.

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  1. Watersluis

    Watersluis Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    This is something that was really cemented to me after finishing the last season of Lower Decks in one go. In particular in the scene where two humanoid life-forms with pointy ears, one having heavy eye-liner and the other not, assumingly a male, and female Vulcan, were shown side by side. — It is often said that Star Trek as a franchise is at the vanguard of progressiveness and challenging it's audience, but I find myself strongly disagreeing.

    I suppose that for The Original Series, one can argue that for the time, for a U.S.A. television series it was certainly a daring move to specifically include non-white cast members, cast members from around the planet, a Russian at the height of the cold war in particular, and female cast members. — These would certainly be things that challenged the U.S.A. audience but that was al it did. I actually particularly dislike how 300 years into the future these supposed pedigree “races” still apparently exist. Many other titles such as The Time Machine showed what I believe is a more correct view in concord with Roddenberry's “Utopian” vision, that all mankind had more or less merged into a homogeneous brown skin complexion. The U.S.A. is the only country in the Americas where “races” continue to exist; every other country has already for the most part merged into this somewhat homogeneous brown complexion.

    [​IMG]
    If the bridge crew of the Enterprise looked thus, I would have certainly liked it more.

    And after that, it only becomes worse. T.N.G. certainly did nothing remarkable for it's time in that department. Featuring non-white, non-male characters was nothing new a that time of course, and then D.S.9. was a particular embarrassment with it's treatment of race, inventing “black Bajorans”, which were never seen before, simply to give Jake Sisko a love interest since even though cross-species romance is fine, cross-race apparently is too sensitive in the 90s?

    The intro sequence of Enterprise was a further embarrassment, willfully excluding the first man in space from it's opening montage of great feats of exploration because it was a soviet achievement? Gene Roddenberry would turn in his grave after he achieved including a Russian character at the height of the cold war, but showing the first man in space in 2002 is too much to ask?

    There were some interesting things however, such as Denobuians being portrayed as a polygamous species where each individual is married to three others, and the episode that highlighted it did serve to challenge the U.S.A.-audience on their views on monogamy, as well as the three-sex species where the third sex was essentially a slave cast, but it certainly was not much.

    Of course, it can't be omitted how much Star Trek has categorically been lacking behind in including same-sex relationships when this was already very mainstream in other titles, and frankly how absurd it's treatment of gender has always been. How reptilian alien species still have males and females with the females somehow having breasts or how completely different alien species must sport sex-coded haircuts conformant with North American gender roles.

    [​IMG]
    Just so there be absolutely no mistaking who is male, and who is female.

    They could do anything they wanted with alien species; they could have made both the male and female members of an alien species both be played by say female human actors, but make the females bald, and have the males have elaborate peacock-style colorful manes, which is certainly not biologically unlikely, but for the most part that would challenge the audience too much.

    [​IMG]
    Liquid lifeforms that only assume a humanoid form for convenience to interact with humanoids must still have a gender.

    We are talking about aliens here who could have very interesting biology, but this was all thy could come up with.

    Then onto Lower Decks where it all started: we indeed finally have our same-sex sexual intercourse, and actually handled in a way that I like as it's treated as the most common thing without special attention drawn to it, but all the female cast members wear this strange eyeliner, races still exist, haircuts must be conformant to gender and race from a purely U.S.A. cultural perspective, and even though it be animation, where the sky is the limit and one is not beholden to any limits of human actors, alien species must still have exactly the same sex characteristics as humans do.

    Certainly in animation, I've een far better, and far more impressive things that push the boundary.
     
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  2. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    How about Discovery, which has:

    • Two gay male characters in a relationship: Stamets and Culber
    • A butch lesbian female character: Reno
    • A non-binary character: Adira
    • A transgendered male character: Grey
    You left out Discovery, almost on purpose it seems like. Either that, or you haven't watched much of it (if any).

    Star Trek was way behind on gay portrayals in the '80s, '90s, and '00s -- and it's right to criticize the track-record there -- but it's leading the charge with transgendered characters and non-binary characters with Discovery in the 2020s.

    Don't blame the Kurtzman Era for the sins of the Berman Era. They're two different regimes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2021
  3. Watersluis

    Watersluis Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Nothing impressive at that time and age; it has to be measured relative to the time.
    If T.O.S. did this, it would actually make people think, but they were very late to the party and it was no longer challenging people but preaching to the choir at that point.
    T.O.S. in some ways actually challenged and dared to be controversial. Including a Russian character was in no way preaching to any choir and a risky financial move for a U.S.A. title during the height of the cold war.

    I also left out Voyager, and indeed I never watched it beyond the third episode of the third season.

    It's not leading at all, there are many titles, such as The Crying Game that did this in 1992, when Deep Space Nine stil had to relegate same-sex kisses to the evil mirror universe. It's completely normal now and does not push the envelope, does not make people think, does not remind them of that something can exist they never thought of.

    Orphan Black in 2012 did it already in a way that dared to preach against the choir; this was both when it was not as common, as well as the height of the belief that it was purely genetic even though identical-twin counter examples exist. In Orphan Black, the transgender character was a clone of another character that never underwent a gender transition and Orphan Black in general was about following a large number of clones that grew up in very different environment to see what became of them, it also included many things that challenged the audience such as a chimæra, which much of the audience would not know exist, or a character that despite never having considered the same sex up till that point falls in love with a member of the same-sex and now has to navigate the labels.

    Star Trek isn't challenging anyone or teaching anyone about something he didn't know prior; it's preaching to the choir by including that which the audience already knows exists, and is unlikely to offend them, make them uncomfortable, or make them think. — T.O.S.'s interracial kiss offended, but that is long gone now.
     
  4. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    You weren't alive in 1968 -- I suspect -- and neither was I, so we can't say what the reaction was back then.

    But what I do know is that there's still resistance to trans-gendered characters today. And most people don't know what to do with non-binary.

    The people who were anti-LGBT 10 years ago have only become further entrenched. I see this IRL. They've become worse and worse. Especially after Trump enabled them. And I've only spent the past four years fighting people online who complain that Discovery is "too woke". Those people hate the show and I'm glad they do.

    And, like I said in the previous post, I won't defend Star Trek's track record during the Berman Era. I think it deserves all the criticism it gets. But I'll defend Discovery tooth-and-nail.

    EDITED TO ADD: Discovery is the main series when it comes to Star Trek dealing with LGBT today. It should be the FIRST thing you bring up. How the fuck can you leave it out when you're talking about how Star Trek is now? You go to Lower Decks of all things? Give me a break.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2021
  5. Watersluis

    Watersluis Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Because I don't think including “l.g.b.t. characters” is particularly “progressive” at all. I indeed didn't give it much thought initially but I believe I addressed it now.
    Everyone knows this exists now; it's not doing anything new and not opening any eyes: those that agree agree; those that disagree disagree; no one gained a new perspective.

    From to the point I watched it, it was handled horribly, with fleeting labels such as “gay” and “pansexual” still existing 300 years into the future. — This is the difference with Lower Decks and why I liked it more: there it was simply done, not lampshaded, no one bat an eye; it was “Show; don't tell.”, and here it was all “Tell; don't show.” because as far as I watched it we didn't even see Stamets and Culber kiss because apparently two males kissing is too unsettling.

    That's not to say I didn't think it ridiculous in that scene on Lower Decks that the female character had to wear a nipple-covering while everyone else was bare-chested because apparently in a title that isn't afraid of showing gruesome stabs and arms breaking to reveal the broken bones inside, the almighty female nipple must still be covered. — We can add that to the long list of things Star Trek lags behind in: nudity and swearwords.
     
  6. XCV330

    XCV330 Premium Member

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    I'm quite happy with Star Trek not having more nudity and swear words. What I need Discovery to improve upon right now is not in the quantity of butts and goddamnits. Tighter story editing, less logical leaps, and some fun adventure would be just fine.
     
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  7. Watersluis

    Watersluis Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    The other problem is that all nudity needs to be sexualized.
    Non-sexual nudity in realistic situations where people would be naked is very underrated. Lower Decks again had it, but censored, where they showered together but it wasn't the all too common “erotic bathing” nonsense, but actual showering as one would shower.

    And again, “Show; not tell.” it was a unisex shower but no special lampshading was done.
     
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  8. XCV330

    XCV330 Premium Member

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    ok
     
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  9. Falconer

    Falconer Commander Red Shirt

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    I’d say the main thrust of Star Trek is to explore space, planets, aliens, the future, the galaxy… through the eyes of essentially relatable characters. You’ll notice TOS went to great lengths to prove that the human leads were quite human, interested in games and sports and romance and books and pets and alcohol. It would be nice to hang out in the crew lounge with Rand and Sulu and Uhura and listen to some music. It would be great to have a drink with Kirk and McCoy. It provides the audience with something comfortable and normal to contrast with all the strange things they are going to encounter. Gives the audience a proxy, a point of reference.

    Star Trek in many ways rejected already tired sci-fi tropes, like the idea that in the future everyone will be total sexual libertines and will act like it’s no big deal. Communal pansexual showers, indeed.
     
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  10. Watersluis

    Watersluis Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I agree to some degree but it's often heralded as a very progressive title when other science fiction titles pushed the envelope far further. Even Star Wars which was never touted as such could be more interesting with it's alien biology.
    Though I suppose the Aquatic Xindi did do that.

    Roddenberry definitely tried to do something and push some things, in his own ways. He certainly tried to inspire political change and probably had a significant influence.
     
  11. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    At the end of the day, I don't think inclusion should be seen as "progressive" or "challenging". I think people who are different from the majority just want to be accepted.

    Unfortunately, society at large -- among the average person -- isn't there yet. I'll be old or dead by the time it is. Right now people think they're tolerant, but it only goes up to a certain point; whether they're conscious of it or not.
     
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  12. Falconer

    Falconer Commander Red Shirt

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    My sense is that the 1966 audience was “ready” for Uhura in the same way the 2017 audience was “ready” for Stamets, so I just don’t think there is or must be any pressure on this franchise to be especially aggressively progressive with its main characters. They are meant to “look like America” in a contemporary and slightly idealized fashion.
     
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  13. Watersluis

    Watersluis Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    That Star Trek had the first interracial kiss in U.S.A. television, but that same-sex relationships were featured long ere Stamets indicates that this was not the case. Reading on it, Uhura was the first black female main character on any U.S.A. television title, but I don't know how well this is measured and what criteria for “main” are used.

    But that is what T.O.S. specifically was not meant to; it was meant to look as the world, not the U.S.A..
    Uhura is not what they would call “African-American”; this is a character from the “African Fœderation”; Scott and Chekov were of course Scottish and Russian respectively; I had once thought that Hikaru Sulu was actually Japanese, but he's apparently from the U.S.A., so that does bring three cast members from the U.S.A.. — I would certainly not have minded if Kirk were, say, Canadian, as the actor who played him is.

    U.S.A. television is often criticized for being too U.S.A.-centric in a setting that it has no business being, and Star Trek for a considerable while indeed deviated from that, but since the C.B.S. æra certainly feels more U.S.A. centric again.

    Another problem is that often, though these characters are stated to be from “The African Fœderation” or “Japan” they do not really feel as such at all. Is it so hard to have Uhura and LaForge talk in one of the actual African accents of English for one? Picard must be the most British Frenchmen I have ever seen, given the political cultural tensions between France and Britain, no doubt a move that might have dawn some ire in France. Chekov of course felt a bit too, and a bit too ignorantly Russian.
     
  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Star Trek hasn't been progressive in a while and the Kirk/Uhura kiss was not the first interracial kiss.

    ETA: I knew @Maurice had commented on this and found the post
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2021
  15. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The X-Men movies did the "progressive" thing better than Star Trek, IMHO. But they do try, and that's important.
     
  16. Watersluis

    Watersluis Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Probably also the source material. Strips have often been quite a bit better at this than television, especially X-men, which was always about debating social issues with the mutant discrimination concept.

    The new Spider-Man films in the M.C.U. are also fairly good. — Black Panther was a Code of Honor grade disaster, however, in a weird, implausible anachronism of different African faiths put together in a technologically advanced absolute monarchy where the right to succession is determined by combat to the death, and for whatever reason houses are modeled after straw huts.

    But I suppose all it takes to evade the usual controversy around this ridiculousness is to have a black director, who was probably just a puppet whose strings were pulled by mostly white businessmen.
     
  17. MrPicard

    MrPicard Jean-Luc's Loving Husband Fleet Captain

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    I also fail to see what’s so “progressive” about Trek nowadays regarding lgbt+ representation. They’re patting themselves on the back for now having what they should have had on TNG already. If anything, Trek is catching up, not leading the way.

    I would be more lenient with this if the 90s Trek shows had been set in today’s times. But they weren’t. They were supposed to show a future where humanity has overcome discrimination and whatnot and where everyone is supposedly free to live and love however and whoever they please and whatnot - and yet all they do is show straight cis humans and maybe one or two hints about things involving aliens but that was it. Humanity seemed to only consist of heterosexual people and that’s the message that was sent and this led to some particularly “pleasant” fans claiming that “them gays have been wiped out in the future”.

    All this doesn’t mean I don’t approve of them trying now. They are, and that’s good because today’s younger audience will now grow up with the representation my generation didn’t have and missed so much back in the 90s, and I commend them for now trying to have proper representation - but honestly, this should all have been included a long time ago.

    Regarding Jean-Luc… I asked a French friend of mine about this a title while ago and she said almost no one in France even knows Jean-Luc. He’s not a hero there or anything (they don’t have a statue for him in LaBarre, for one thing). She said “when a French person hears the word Picard they think of frozen food”. (There’s a frozen food chain called Picard in France.) I also asked her if she thought it would be different if he’d been played by a French actor and she said probably. He’d definitely have gotten a bit more attention. (I live right next to France and my observations are similar to what she told me.) I’d add that I’ve also seen a lot of French fans complain about Sir Patrick’s rather bad French in PIC (and I have to agree, as much as it pains me, it’s… umm… not very believable and the only headcanon I can build around this is that he’s been speaking so much English for decades that his French has gotten rusty, my German sure isn’t what it used to be either anymore because I surround myself with English all the time, so, this isn’t unheard of, but still)… :shifty:
     
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  18. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Star Trek is behind and is way too puritanical compared to many parts of Europe who are far more open with nudity and sex.

    Star Trek could use a "Sex Positive" image and not be so damn puritanical about it.

    It's nothing to be ashamed of and you shouldn't feel bad about sexuality or the display of it on TV/movies.

    I know that the US is incredibly prudish about this stuff, but I find it ridiculous given how pervasive and common sexuality is in media.
     
  19. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    *reads title*

    *predicts that this will be about LGBT representation in Star Trek and not progressivism in general*

    *reads thread and is proven correct*

    The faults have been noted many times before. Enterprise should have had a gay character (and a Muslim character) during its run. While Reed was the original plan to have a gay character on the show before that fell apart, why someone new was not just casted to be gay character that works in the armory that can be phased into being a part of the main cast, IDK. And you can’t judge how Andorian identities were handled then either, since the Andorians had never received any development until ENT. That species actually having 4 genders has yet to be explored, and might be in SNW. Similarly its hinted that Rigelians have 4-5 different genders in ENT, but it never got explored either. The show being cancelled has something to do with that.

    The Denboulans - while opening the door to poly relationships - were not explored beyond S2, and is a good refection of the timidness of ENT’s creative direction during its run.

    The ENT intro was pro-American, and to be expected because its an American show; the intro could have been refreshed for S5 and included Russians and others, or dumped the pro-America stuff for the NX-01 leaving drydock and flyby shots, but we’ll never know. And I think you find that there are many pro-American progressives in existence.

    At the same time, there is a reason that DS9 is consider to be the gayest Trek.

    While much is made about the first lesbian kiss between Lenora and Jadzia, being a Dax means that Jadzia is really a pansexual character. And when considering the friendships to Sisko and Bashir (both as Jadzia and Ezri) and considering how conservative members of both the black and middle eastern communities can be in regards to LGBT identities, its actually very progressive for its time.

    Similarly, even though the physical forms of both Odo and the female founder are the male and female gender, they actually have no gender and are genderfluid representation. Meaning Kira is in a relationship with a genderfluid person, also very progressive for its time.

    It seems that its forgotten that the ‘90s and ‘00s were a different time, and a lot of the gender identities were still underground and not in the mainstream. And better representation of both POC and women were the priority of the day. And where Trek has thrived in regards to POC and women is in non-stereotypical roles. Again, very progressive for its time.

    Nowadays, we have DIS. And that this issues with the show are related to its writing of the characters themselves and not that it has very strong LGBT representation is a major positive.

    And as for the characters looking the way they do in LD…maybe the characters are fine with eyeliner and haircuts on gender lines. Are there any rules that state that they have to break the norms all the time?

    This just feels like concern trolling to me.

    A) Its an American show, and not a European or even a Canadian show.
    B) Its not being aired on HBO or produced by Netflix, both of which would be far more liberal with nudity and sex.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2021
  20. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's the Good & Bad part, that it's an American show.

    Unfortunately, it's on Paramount+ which is part of the CBS family.
     
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