Spoilers The Flash - Season 8 Discussion Thread

[Guy Gardener]

Mixed reactions. The time-travel stuff did not make any sense at all. If Thawne changed the timeline by getting himself struck by lightning in 2013 and killing Barry as a child, why did he also need to change it by killing Joe and sabotaging STAR Labs in 2021? And why weren't any of those earlier changes reflected in the 2021 timelne? That's utterly incoherent. Also, since when did the Flash running around the world cause global cataclysms? Didn't he and Supergirl both run around the world at superspeed at the climax of Elseworlds, without any kind of global devastation? Not to mention that Mach 20 seems pretty slow for creating a time vortex.

On the plus side, I loved how they used Damien Darhk. It made sense that he'd still be villainous (and alive) in this timeline, but he was still true to his previous characterization, with his love for Nora being the thing that redeems him.

Mixed feelings about the ensemble, too. It was good to finally see more than one guest star in the episode and have some real team interaction, but the amount of character progress seemed more consistent with one or two years than a whole decade. I'd been looking forward to seeing Ryan Choi again, but I didn't like his altered characterization, no longer a family man in this timeline. And while we finally got to see him in a very authentic Atom suit, I'm pretty sure it was just a repaint of a Flash suit, with the same distinctive construction and texture to the cowl. Plus I was hoping we'd get to see the official handoff of the Atom mantle from Ray to Ryan. Still hoping that happens next week in the real timeline, but I'm not betting on it.




Maybe Jesse L. Martin wasn't available due to some other project, or maybe they only signed him to appear in a certain number of episodes this season to save money. That might be why they wrote the storyline around his absence in the first place.

It's not a real victory unless you can gloat.

When you time travel, you go outside of time

If you're out side of time when the time line changes you enter the wrong timeline.

Every time the timeline changes, every time traveler enters every timeline, because they are always outside time about to reenter time.

Of course that doesn't explain how Barry got home to a 2021 where Thawne was not the Flash?

Unless there are infinite Barry Allens, traveling to infinite 2031s, and then traveling back to infinite 2021s, and Berlanti just cherry picked the stories he wanted to see.

Why did Barry have to go Mach 20?

 

[Romulan_spy]

Mixed reactions. The time-travel stuff did not make any sense at all. If Thawne changed the timeline by getting himself struck by lightning in 2013 and killing Barry as a child, why did he also need to change it by killing Joe and sabotaging STAR Labs in 2021?

In the episode, Thawn says that killing Joe and sabotaging Star Labs in 2021 was part of his plan to drive Barry crazy. Thawn says he was also the one that attacked Central City as the Flash to make Flash think that he was attacking people and blacking out. Thawn wanted Barry to think he was going insane and run to Jefferson to take his powers away. It was Thawn's plan to trick Barry into giving up his powers. Thawn did not just want to be the Flash, he also wanted to depower Barry so that he would be the faster one. But yeah, I agree the time travel did not make any sense at all.

 

[Christopher]

It was Thawn's plan to trick Barry into giving up his powers. Thawn did not just want to be the Flash, he also wanted to depower Barry so that he would be the faster one.

Yeah, but why bother if he changed history so he got the Flash's powers instead? And also changed it to kill Barry as an infant? Thawne was explicating three different, mutually incompatible timeline changes at the same time. It made no sense.

I suppose maybe the idea is that first he had to weaken Barry in 2021 to stop him from interfering as he subsequently went back and changed more things, and since Barry jumped over that point, he arrived after those later changes had been made. But that wasn't spelled out in the dialogue, so as presented, it's contradictory.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I suppose maybe the idea is that first he had to weaken Barry in 2021 to stop him from interfering as he subsequently went back and changed more things, and since Barry jumped over that point, he arrived after those later changes had been made. But that wasn't spelled out in the dialogue, so as presented, it's contradictory.

Yeah, that would make a bit more sense and I think that was the intent but I agree, it was not really spelled out clearly.

 

[Romulan_spy]

In the trailer for next week, Despero says something like "you could still cause Armageddon". I get the impression that Despero is not going to believe Barry and is still going to try to kill him. If true, I suspect that the finale of the crossover will be Team Flash defeating Despero and then taking on Reverse Flash in a big epic boss fight. I was kinda hoping Despero would flip and help Team Flash against Reverse Flash. Maybe we will still see that? Or maybe Despero will just leave when he realizes that Barry won't cause Armageddon? Or maybe Team Flash will defeat Reverse Flash and then have an epic final fight against Despero and his army?

 

[The Habs Fan]

Another excellent episode in a surprising excellent season 8 so far. I wonder if the reverse Flashpoint has caused some unexpected changes in the fixed timeline (like the original flashpoint did).

 

[Commander Troi]

Not that I can think of. The only plot-specific thing I recall is a mention of

Spoiler

Henderson's death,

which of course you already know about.

(Spoiler-coded for anybody who hasn't seen Black Lightning season 3. Go watch it! All of it! The whole series! Awesome show!)

Agreed! It was a great show. Tobias Whale was an *awesome* villain! And I don't think there have been any spoilers for BL S4 here in Flash either.

DC properties referencing Marvel properties is always amusing. They used to go back and forth, but now Marvel doesn't do it anymore.

Weird thing - they had Mary Marvel in the most recent Young Justice episode and this was in the IMDB trivia section:

According to Greg Weisman, the word "Marvel" became off-limits as of season three. This is why Captain Marvel was renamed Shazam and why Mary Bromfield balked halfway through stating her previous moniker, Sergeant Marvel.​

 

[Tuskin38]

Huh, Xotar was played by Kandyse McClure, I didn't recognize her.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Weird thing - they had Mary Marvel in the most recent Young Justice episode and this was in the IMDB trivia section:

According to Greg Weisman, the word "Marvel" became off-limits as of season three. This is why Captain Marvel was renamed Shazam and why Mary Bromfield balked halfway through stating her previous moniker, Sergeant Marvel.​

Ah! The age old dispute between Marvel and DC regarding the name Captain Marvel. To put a long story short. National Comics (DC before renaming itself) sued Fawcett comics in the 50s. They claimed that Billy Baston/Captain Marvel was a clone of Superman. He is, but that's cloning an archetype. A series of trials and appeals saw Fawcett winning, but court is expensive. So to settle things, Fawcett agreed to pay damages and stopped publishing comics. This left the original character in limbo. In 1967, Marvel and Stan Lee trademarked the name "Captain Marvel" and started printing their own character. Mar-Vell from the Kree Empire. He had a lot success and was very popular. In 1972, DC bought out Fawcett and gained the rights to their characters but couldn't sell books under the title Captain Marvel.

They could call the character Captain Marvel. However since Marvel Comics owned the trademark, DC would be in legal hot water if Marvel pressed the issue. It's why Billy and his family got so little exposure at DC for decades. Changing the name to Shazam sidesteps the legal issue. As Marvel has been more aggressive about protecting the trademark of Captain Marvel. As they try to make Carol the female face of their brand.

 

[Commander Troi]

Reverse Flashpoint huh? I’m surprised that hasn’t been a comic story yet.
It was pretty good but the guest stars are just so random. Certainly feels like because of Covid they had only a few options and just went with them. I did like Darhk though. He was always the best part in Legends so it’s no surprise he stole the show here.
That love story was rather weird. To focus that much time on it on a timeline that soon will be erased. I get they are in love in the prime timeline but you could have easily done it there. I would have used that time to showcase more of the differences.
Who was this Lady in Red this impostor Batwoman was talking about? I don’t watch that show.

Has this plot been used in comics? I thought most of it (some was poorly explained or overkill) was pretty damn clever.

I do watch Batwoman and nobody fitting that description has shown up... yet.

It's not a real victory unless you can gloat.

When you time travel, you go outside of time

If you're out side of time when the time line changes you enter the wrong timeline.

Every time the timeline changes, every time traveler enters every timeline, because they are always outside time about to reenter time.

Of course that doesn't explain how Barry got home to a 2021 where Thawne was not the Flash?

Unless there are infinite Barry Allens, traveling to infinite 2031s, and then traveling back to infinite 2021s, and Berlanti just cherry picked the stories he wanted to see.

Why did Barry have to go Mach 20?

“Timeline? This is no time to talk about time! We don’t have the time!… What was I saying?”

Another excellent episode in a surprising excellent season 8 so far. I wonder if the reverse Flashpoint has caused some unexpected changes in the fixed timeline (like the original flashpoint did).

I wouldn't be surprised.

Ah! The age old dispute between Marvel and DC regarding the name Captain Marvel. To put a long story short. National Comics (DC before renaming itself) sued Fawcett comics in the 50s. They claimed that Billy Baston/Captain Marvel was a clone of Superman. He is, but that's cloning an archetype. A series of trials and appeals saw Fawcett winning, but court is expensive. So to settle things, Fawcett agreed to pay damages and stopped publishing comics. This left the original character in limbo. In 1967, Marvel and Stan Lee trademarked the name "Captain Marvel" and started printing their own character. Mar-Vell from the Kree Empire. He had a lot success and was very popular. In 1972, DC bought out Fawcett and gained the rights to their characters but couldn't sell books under the title Captain Marvel.

They could call the character Captain Marvel. However since Marvel Comics owned the trademark, DC would be in legal hot water if Marvel pressed the issue. It's why Billy and his family got so little exposure at DC for decades. Changing the name to Shazam sidesteps the legal issue. As Marvel has been more aggressive about protecting the trademark of Captain Marvel. As they try to make Carol the female face of their brand.

Nicely summarized! ::applause::

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

But yeah, I agree the time travel did not make any sense at all.

So many of Berlanti's DC productions share the "not making sense" problem.

 

[theenglish]

Another really fun episode! Sure there was a lot that didnt make sense, but I loved the idea that Thawne had to make multiple changes to several timelines in order for his plan to work. He put so much effort into it that I was almost rooting for him to win.

This show is really firing in all cylanders again. I want more family man Ryan Choi in his own series!

 

[phloxam2]

Did they ever explain how Barry Allen could be the Reverse Flash in the Thawne created timeline if Thawne killed Barry Allen as a child?

 

[theenglish]

Did they ever explain how Barry Allen could be the Reverse Flash in the Thawne created timeline if Thawne killed Barry Allen as a child?

The way I understood it was that Thawne created multiple timelines. He created the Armageddon timeline which we saw in the first three episodes and then after Barry traveled to the future, he created the Reverse Flashpoint timeline leaving Barry as a Time Remnant.

 

[phloxam2]

The way I understood it was that Thawne created multiple timelines. He created the Armageddon timeline which we saw in the first three episodes and then after Barry traveled to the future, he created the Reverse Flashpoint timeline leaving Barry as a Time Remnant.

The Time Remnant theory makes sense, but why would Barry Allen be evil. The Team Flash tat worked with Eobard Thane-Flash were familiar with Barry Allen as a villain, the Reverse Flash. Unless the Reverse Flash in that timeline was a time remnant of Thawne wearing Barry Allen' face.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Thawne could have picked up a time remnant of Savatar?

The way I understood it was that Thawne created multiple timelines. He created the Armageddon timeline which we saw in the first three episodes and then after Barry traveled to the future, he created the Reverse Flashpoint timeline leaving Barry as a Time Remnant.

I say timelines, but there is only one time line at a time in the Arrowverse.

The single time line rewrites again and again and again.

"Sigh"

What about the original Thawne who replaced Wells?

Did they fight for control of the timeline?

And if Barry was the Reverse Flash, then Iris should be preggo with Eddie's babies?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Ah! The age old dispute between Marvel and DC regarding the name Captain Marvel. To put a long story short. National Comics (DC before renaming itself) sued Fawcett comics in the 50s. They claimed that Billy Baston/Captain Marvel was a clone of Superman. He is, but that's cloning an archetype. A series of trials and appeals saw Fawcett winning, but court is expensive. So to settle things, Fawcett agreed to pay damages and stopped publishing comics. This left the original character in limbo. In 1967, Marvel and Stan Lee trademarked the name "Captain Marvel" and started printing their own character. Mar-Vell from the Kree Empire. He had a lot success and was very popular. In 1972, DC bought out Fawcett and gained the rights to their characters but couldn't sell books under the title Captain Marvel.

They could call the character Captain Marvel. However since Marvel Comics owned the trademark, DC would be in legal hot water if Marvel pressed the issue. It's why Billy and his family got so little exposure at DC for decades. Changing the name to Shazam sidesteps the legal issue. As Marvel has been more aggressive about protecting the trademark of Captain Marvel. As they try to make Carol the female face of their brand.

I see Mar-Vell gets to appear twice.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I am excited for final part of the crossover tonight. Anyone want to make any predictions? I expect we will see a big action set piece. I do think that undoing reverse flashpoint will cause some leftover changes that will continue to have repercussions throughout the season. Perhaps we will see Ryan become the Atom for good in the prime timeline. Of course, we know from DC Fandome that Flash will get the golden boots. I suspect that Despero will still try to kill Barry and Despero will be defeated but then Reverse Flash will show up and there will be the main fight against him. Since this could be the final season, it is possible that they will kill off Reverse Flash but I am not sure. Reverse Flash seems like a villain, you always want to keep around. I think it is safe to predict that someone will say "Run, Barry Run" and Barry and Thawn will chase each other and Barry will run faster than ever.

 

[Tuskin38]

That was interesting. I didn't actually expect Nora to show up. The actress lives in Vancouver I believe, so it's not surprising they were able to get her for a single episode.

 

[SAndrews10]

Kept her name out of the credits to keep it a surprise.

Ok so where do we think they go next with the Mia searching for William thread? And on what show do they make it a part of? And are they still going to try to find a regular slot for her or give her her own show again? Not that I would be complaining on either front.