Why, exactly, was the Enterprise and her crew decommissioned?

[Timo]

I always took the gap between C and D to be out of respect for the dead.

...In other words, the name was jinxed.

The USN hasn't been keen on launching any Intrepids after it retired the Evil I. That Starfleet did launch the E-C might indicate that the E-B didn't perish particularly horribly - but the E-C did go to with her entire crew, and in somewhat uncertain circumstances where, depending on the timeline, either the Feds or the Klingons might have considered the demise dishonorable or politically inconvenient.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MAGolding]

What do you

...In other words, the name was jinxed.

The USN hasn't been keen on launching any Intrepids after it retired the Evil I. That Starfleet did launch the E-C might indicate that the E-B didn't perish particularly horribly - but the E-C did go to with her entire crew, and in somewhat uncertain circumstances where, depending on the timeline, either the Feds or the Klingons might have considered the demise dishonorable or politically inconvenient.

Timo Saloniemi

What do you mean by:

The USN hasn't been keen on launching any Intrepids after it retired the Evil I.

?

Are you certain the "Evil I" you mention was not the USS Independence, or the USS Indomitable, or the USS Infinite, or the USSS Impervious, or the USSS invincible, or the USS invulnerable, or the USS Imperious, or the USS Indefatigable, or the USS Insensitive, or something?

 

[MAGolding]

Duplicate post.

 

[Tim Thomason]

What do you


What do you mean by: ?

Are you certain the "Evil I" you mention was not the USS Indpendence, or the USS Indomitable, or the USS Infinite, or the USSS Impervious, or something?

https://www.intrepidmuseum.org/ThisMonthinIntrepidsHistory/january

 

[Sci]

The NX-01 being decommissioned after ten years was unusual anyway, given modern day space shuttles have a longer life expectancy. I suspect it was a by-product of the fact that TATV was originally written at the end of Enterprise's third season, to be used as a series finale in case the show were cancelled. There the should would be decommissioned as a result of the extensive damage it took during the Xindi mission.

I assume that the NX-01 was decommissioned because of the extreme historical significance of the ship. It was basically the catalyst for the eventual formation of the Federation.

Yeah, in the original cut opening scene it's clear he's retired. However, the movie muddles it by having Kirk still appear in uniform in the opening.

I don't think that muddies anything. Real-life retired military personnel sometimes wear their uniforms at ceremonial events.

The crew was indeed old. The ship, however, was only 7 years old at that point, if one is to believe that the ship was built during the Whale Probe incident.

It makes no sense that Starfleet would be building a new Constitution-class starship at the same time the Excelsior was being launched and the Enterprise being decommissioned during TSFS. Far more probable that it was an existing ship (traditionally identified in fanon as the USS Yorktown) given a new name and registry in honor of Kirk's crew and the original 1701. So more than likely, as others have said, the Enteprise-A was comparable in age to the 1701. In fact, if she was launched the same year as the 1701, then she would have been 48 years old during TUC.

And I'm still waiting for someone to give me a satisfactory answer as to why the Miranda class (a contemporary to the Constitution class) was still in service during DS9 when the Constitution class wasn't?

Was the Miranda class a contemporary to the Constitution class? I know that's a common assumption, but what if it wasn't? What if the Miranda class was first launched in the 2270s or 2280s -- perhaps even designed around unused Constitution hulls? If the Miranda class was launched in the 2270s or 2280s, that would make the class about 90-100 during the Dominion War rather than 130-ish like the Constitution class.

I would also just generally assume that there were more Mirandas in service during the Dominion War just because there were more Mirandas in existence before the war. For all we know, maybe the Klingon War of 2256-2257 drastically reduced the number of Constitution-class ships in service, and that's why there were only a handful of them around during TOS.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I don't think that muddies anything. Real-life retired military personnel sometimes wear their uniforms at ceremonial events.

Yes, of course. Guess I’ve been writing screenplays so long that I’m far removed from my Navy brat upbringing. So I was thinking more in what it would communicate visually to a general audience not accustomed to military traditions. More so, how you visually make Kirk read as “retired” and not still part of Starfleet.

Also putting him in civies while others are still in uniform also turns the key visually on his story arc.

As always, YMMV.

 

[Timo]

It would be pretty frustrating to try and state that ships in the 1800 range of registries or in the Reliant school of contouring weren't old fare in TOS already, and that the Miranda was something derivative of the TMP refit rather than its inspiration. Even back in TOS, we have a registry that looks very much like NCC-1864; DIS then gives us a range of ships that a decade earlier looked much like the Miranda, and depicts NCC-1701 as a unique antique in terms of design language.

Starfleet did continue to build Mirandas - even if we discard the evidence of registries, there was a new Saratoga well after an older one bit the space dust in the TOS movie era. And Starfleet decidedly built Constellations, of similar technology. So a decision to stop building Constitutions can't stem from the same logic. Assuming a greater age for the Constitutions works to an extent, and the established existence of a refitting practice allows old ships to look the same as new ones for a specific stretch of their respecive careers.

If we do accept registries, then Miranda is likely to be slightly newer, all the known NCCs being in the 1800 rather than 1700 side of things, and there being no direct "ancestor" in the lower range the way we have USS Constellation. Or even ancestors in the 1600 range, which the Constitution arguably has if we squint enough in TOS-R. (Near-sisters, yes - the Malachowski is just a tad smaller and looks very TMP style, only awaiting a warp nacelle refit. And curiously, the Constitution has no such near-sisters in evidence.)

But when Starfleet has a spectrum of designs with the given characteristics - Constitution, Miranda, Constellation, Sydney - and is a convicted perpetrator of refits, we have multiple options for trexplaining pretty much anything and everything.

1) Constitution could have a narrow niche in this family, missionwise or performancewise, and was thus built in very low numbers, only ever representing about 15 ships out of Starfleet's 7,000 at best.
2) Constitution could have a narrow niche in this family, missionwise or performancewise, and the niche died at the turn of the century.
3) Constitution could have a narrow niche in this family, missionwise or performancewise, and the niche resulted in getting all of 'em killer by the turn of the century.
4) Constitution could be the ancient aunt with the facelift to match the pretty daughters-in-law.
5) Constitution was refitted again, and became utterly unrecognizable.
6) Etc.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Yes, of course. Guess I’ve been writing screenplays so long that I’m far removed from my Navy brat upbringing. So I was thinking more in what it would communicate visually to a general audience not accustomed to military traditions. More so, how you visually make Kirk read as “retired” and not still part of Starfleet.

Also putting him in civies while others are still in uniform also turns the key visually on his story arc.

As always, YMMV.

I rather think they struck a good balance with having Scotty (Originally Spock? More probably McCoy!) explicitly refer to Kirk's retirement, yet having him wear the uniform - not because it's what he wants to do and be, but because it's what Starfleet wants him to don and portray for the stupid ceremony. It's cruel, really: Kirk's greatest joy, of being a celebrated starship captain, is perverted into a freak show here. I think he might have been more comfortable wearing civvies...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

All of Spock's lines were said by Scotty, all of McCoy's lines were said by Chekov.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Best let the admiral explain it himself

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Yeah, in the original cut opening scene it's clear he's retired. However, the movie muddles it by having Kirk still appear in uniform in the opening.

I used live/work next to a British army veterans club and old retired men in full dress uniform was quite common to see

since other Excelsior class starships are still active during TNG, there should be no reason why the B also shouldn't be active by that time as well.

Might have just seen way more action or flight time than some of those Excelsior's like the Hood that just seem to be the limousines of dodgy admirals

Waiting until the Galaxy class was in full production

Galaxy did seem to be a very special project in the eyes of Starfleet and probably the biggest step up the fleet was taking since Excelsior so maybe it just kept getting pushed back to get everything right

 

[Amasov]

The crew was indeed old. The ship, however, was only 7 years old at that point, if one is to believe that the ship was built during the Whale Probe incident. And I'm still waiting for someone to give me a satisfactory answer as to why the Miranda class (a contemporary to the Constitution class) was still in service during DS9 when the Constitution class wasn't?

I've always suspected the reason we never saw a Constitution class later on (and even why we never saw a Sovereign class on DS9) was because these were the hero ships of the films and the production staff wanted to keep them there.

As for what the in-universe explanation might be, I have no idea. Was the Constitution class officially retired or was it that we just never saw one? The closest answer to this, to my knowledge, comes from Picard in the TNG episode Relics. When Scotty asks if he's familiar with them, Picard mentions one being in the fleet museum, which seems to imply it's an old class of vessel that's no longer in service. But, they were on the pre-refit Enterprise and one could interpret that answer as being there's a TOS-era Constitution class ship in the fleet museum.

With regard to why the Miranda and Excelsior classes are still plentiful on the TNG/DS9 era, the question I have is, are they still being built? Or are these just older ships that have been refit over and over again? Does Starfleet subscribe to the whole "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra?

Like, I can understand if during the Dominion War seasons of the show, if DS9 was still using full on models for its effects shots, then, sure, they'll use existing ones such as the Miranda and Excelsior. But when they went full on CGI, why did they essentially rebuild older designs? I remember being quite surprised when I saw many of the designs first established in First Contact starting to appear.

 

[Dukhat]

I've always suspected the reason we never saw a Constitution class later on (and even why we never saw a Sovereign class on DS9) was because these were the hero ships of the films and the production staff wanted to keep them there.

That wasn't the reason. They were getting ready to film the Enterprise studio model for the Stargazer in "The Battle" right up until Greg Jein delivered a new filming model for the ship. The truth was that the Enterprise filming model was very hard to film because it was so large and unwieldy.

As for the Sovereign, it was more that the producers didn't want the audience getting confused and thinking that it was the Enterprise if the model was used as a guest starship in a DS9 episode rather than any feeling about it being a 'hero' ship. The producers often thought their audience was a bunch of morons.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

I've always suspected the reason we never saw a Constitution class later on (and even why we never saw a Sovereign class on DS9) was because these were the hero ships of the films and the production staff wanted to keep them there.

As for what the in-universe explanation might be, I have no idea. Was the Constitution class officially retired or was it that we just never saw one? The closest answer to this, to my knowledge, comes from Picard in the TNG episode Relics. When Scotty asks if he's familiar with them, Picard mentions one being in the fleet museum, which seems to imply it's an old class of vessel that's no longer in service. But, they were on the pre-refit Enterprise and one could interpret that answer as being there's a TOS-era Constitution class ship in the fleet museum.

With regard to why the Miranda and Excelsior classes are still plentiful on the TNG/DS9 era, the question I have is, are they still being built? Or are these just older ships that have been refit over and over again? Does Starfleet subscribe to the whole "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra?

Like, I can understand if during the Dominion War seasons of the show, if DS9 was still using full on models for its effects shots, then, sure, they'll use existing ones such as the Miranda and Excelsior. But when they went full on CGI, why did they essentially rebuild older designs? I remember being quite surprised when I saw many of the designs first established in First Contact starting to appear.

In fairness we never even see a second refit Constitution so I always assumed only the Enterprise to get a refit because of what it was. (Even though it doesn't really become the mega famous multi time Earth saving ship till the movies)

It has always driven me absolutely nuts that we never saw a Sovereign or Intrepid class in DS9. If it was being made nowadays there would definitely be an episode where the Enterprise swoops in and we get a Picard view screen scene or something similar

 

[Amasov]

That wasn't the reason. They were getting ready to film the Enterprise studio model for the Stargazer in "The Battle" right up until Greg Jein delivered a new filming model for the ship. The truth was that the Enterprise filming model was very hard to film because it was so large and unwieldy.

As for the Sovereign, it was more that the producers didn't want the audience getting confused and thinking that it was the Enterprise if the model was used as a guest starship in a DS9 episode rather than any feeling about it being a 'hero' ship. The producers often thought their audience was a bunch of morons.

I guess you have your answer.

 

[XCV330]

The NX-01 being decommissioned after ten years was unusual anyway, given modern day space shuttles have a longer life expectancy.

On the matter of shuttles life expectancy, their life expectancy was what it was because they didn't actually fly as much as they'd been expected to.

Of the six shuttles built, one never flew being too heavy to make the final work worthwhile, one lasted 4 years before destruction, another lasted 22 before burning up on return. There were long down-times between the two disasters for the shuttles still operational. Each one only flew at most 3 times in a single year and that was really pushing it. Each shuttle had to go through a long tear-down and refurbishment every few years which left them out of the schedule. The best workhorse of the fleet, Discovery OV-103 managed 39 flights between 1984 and 2011, about 1.3 a year.

In comparison NX-01 was thrown into operational work load before it even had a chance at a shakedown mission, was shot at, upgraded en situ and had a good chunk of it destroyed during the Xindi War.

 

[Amasov]

In fairness we never even see a second refit Constitution so I always assumed only the Enterprise to get a refit because of what it was. (Even though it doesn't really become the mega famous multi time Earth saving ship till the movies)

It has always driven me absolutely nuts that we never saw a Sovereign or Intrepid class in DS9. If it was being made nowadays there would definitely be an episode where the Enterprise swoops in and we get a Picard view screen scene or something similar

We definitely saw an Intrepid class on DS9.

 

[Amasov]

In comparison NX-01 was thrown into operational work load before it even had a chance at a shakedown mission, was shot at, upgraded en situ and had a good chunk of it destroyed during the Xindi War.

I also figured that given the Federation charter was about to signed between all four species, it would probably mean a major technological leap forward thus larger, more advanced starships could be built for longer-term exploration. By comparison, I'm sure the NX class would've outlived its usefulness. People love to point to the refit NX class with the secondary hull added, but, that's not canon as far as I know.

 

[Dukhat]

In fairness we never even see a second refit Constitution so I always assumed only the Enterprise to get a refit because of what it was. (Even though it doesn't really become the mega famous multi time Earth saving ship till the movies)

I also believe that the Enterprise was the only ship to get that refit, and any other TMP Constitution class ships (the only one we ever saw of which was the Enterprise-A) were all new builds.

I guess you have your answer.

Not sure what you mean by that, but OK.

 

[Amasov]

I also believe that the Enterprise was the only ship to get that refit, and any other TMP Constitution class ships (the only one we ever saw of which was the Enterprise-A) were all new builds.



Not sure what you mean by that, but OK.

I may have quoted the wrong person. Someone wanted to answer to what I initially responded to. I must've mistaken you for the person. Carry on. Stop looking at me.