The REAL reason that Kes isn't a more beloved character...

[Lynx]

Quoted this but didn't do anything with it last post.

It's common knowledge that the books aren't canon, but that doesn't mean we can't find a few good ideas in one. Considering how dismally some characters were handled by Voyager'swriting team, many of them might have been used better in a book than they were in canon.

I have read and liked all the Kes-era Voyager books. Some of them are actually better than many of the episodes, especially masterpieces like The Black Shore by Greg Cox and Marooned by Christie Golden.

Another gem which I find a bit fascinating, although not so incredibly exciting when it comes to action and such is The Garden by Melissa Scott. It has an unexpected twist in the tale at the end which was great.

 

[fireproof78]

It's common knowledge that the books aren't canon, but that doesn't mean we can't find a few good ideas in one. Considering how dismally some characters were handled by Voyager'swriting team, many of them might have been used better in a book than they were in canon.

Which is pretty common in books, and they can provide useful information in terms of possibilities. In that way books provide a measure of value to the overall body of work, even if not 100% accurate to the characters as presented on screen.

Books are usually my preferred engagement with Trek but I don't labor under any sort of attitude that they are canon to the episodes. They simply are not. Doesn't change my enjoyment of the book.

 

[Oddish]

Books are usually my preferred engagement with Trek but I don't labor under any sort of attitude that they are canon to the episodes. They simply are not. Doesn't change my enjoyment of the book.

Agreed. Same with the video games, even the well developed Star Trek Online.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

You all keep talking about Kes and Neelix getting it on, you get a visual. Them's the rules. I'm sorry I had to do this, but you brought it on yourselves.

Realistically, Kes shouldn't even have a sex drive outside of her elogium. However, as a telepath, she might mentally share her mate's pleasures. So they probably did it in ways that would look one-way-serving to a human, but she'd enjoy it as much as he would.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The pleassure rewards shouldn't be turned off, unless in the very narrow window that a conception is made.

That is a lot of unnecessary engineering.

When Eloguim finally happens, the Ocampa lady already needs to have a mate that can provide successful sex resulting in ejaculation within less than seven days.

Or you're in the same boat as that dumb bastard Vorrik, who didn't go looking for a girlfriend until after Pon Farr started, and he was too goofy to pull.

 

[fireproof78]

Realistically, Kes shouldn't even have a sex drive outside of her elogium. However, as a telepath, she might mentally share her mate's pleasures. So they probably did it in ways that would look one-way-serving to a human, but she'd enjoy it as much as he would.

Horrifying.

 

[at Quark's]

Horrifying.

Why would that be horrifying? Sounds way better to me than a woman deriving no pleasure herself but just doing the act because she loves her husband, to please him- and I believe that happens a lot.

 

[fireproof78]

Why would that be horrifying? Sounds way better to me than a woman deriving no pleasure herself but just doing the act because she loves her husband, to please him- and I believe that happens a lot.

That's equally as horrifying to me. But, I'll rant and rave and soapbox in this thread and I don't want to do that. Suffice to say I find the concept horrifying because she has no control over her own reaction. It sounds one way, self-serving, and selfish, if I'm being generous and polite.

 

[at Quark's]

That's equally as horrifying to me. But, I'll rant and rave and soapbox in this thread and I don't want to do that. Suffice to say I find the concept horrifying because she has no control over her own reaction. It sounds one way, self-serving, and selfish, if I'm being generous and polite.

OK, I can understand that. (I'lll take it to mean it's selfish from the viewpoint of the non-telepathic partner).

As to what degree a telepath does or doesn't have control over her own reaction, caused by feelings of herself of others, I cannot say anything, being no telepath myself. But I do know that I can't control all of my own reactions that well (for example a gagging reflex if I see or smell something truly disgusting, or becoming angry or excited about something). Mostly I can just restrain those reactions, but not truly control them.

 

[fireproof78]

OK, I can understand that. (I'lll take it to mean it's selfish from the viewpoint of the non-telepathic partner).

Correct, among others.

As to what degree a telepath does or doesn't have control over her own reaction, caused by feelings of herself of others, I cannot say anything, being no telepath myself. But I do know that I can't control all of my own reactions that well (for example a gagging reflex if I see or smell something truly disgusting, or becoming angry or excited about something). Mostly I can just restrain those reactions, but not truly control them.

Fair point. This whole idea brings up a very strong reaction in myself as well and I am managing it. But, to me, if the only way a female Ocampa can experience pleasure is because their partner is experiencing pleasure then it's very much something that indicates a loss of control, at least to my mind. But, I'm not a telepath either.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

...if the only way a female Ocampa can experience pleasure....

NOT what I meant to imply.

I didn't meant to imply any creepy Stephanie Meyer type of relationship stuff. Just speculating on how an interspecies relationship might work.

...though, nowthat I think of it, Kes getting tired of second-hand pleasure could be a huge factor in why she dumped Neelix.

 

[Oddish]

Why would that be horrifying? Sounds way better to me than a woman deriving no pleasure herself but just doing the act because she loves her husband, to please him- and I believe that happens a lot.

Marrying for love is actually a pretty new thing. For most of human history, marriage has been more a business transaction than a relationship.

 

[Lynx]

Realistically, Kes shouldn't even have a sex drive outside of her elogium. However, as a telepath, she might mentally share her mate's pleasures. So they probably did it in ways that would look one-way-serving to a human, but she'd enjoy it as much as he would.

She did have a crush on Zahir in the episode Darkling.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

She did have a crush on Zahir in the episode Darkling.

Good point.

Ocampans do mate for life, according to Kes. So I suppose she would be capable of some kind of attraction at most times.

But it still probably wouldn't be quite the same as it is with humans. She'd only feel the physical urge to go to third base when her Elogium is on. Though an explorer like Kes would surely be interested in trying things out with her partner just for fun; but I don't think it would be quite the same as for most humans, it wouldn't be this regular physical urge that needs satisfying for her.

 

[Oddish]

Human women enjoy sex whether they're ovulating or not. Why should Ocampa women be different in that regard?

 

[STEPhon IT]

You all keep talking about Kes and Neelix getting it on, you get a visual. Them's the rules. I'm sorry I had to do this, but you brought it on yourselves.

HAha! Probably better the other way around.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

What Birth control was Neelix using?

He shouldn't even need any, with an inter-species relationship. Even if they are all descendants of the "Chase" humanoids from TNG, Ocampans and Talaxians seem different enough that they shoudn't be too compatible for offspring. Even a Klingon and a Trill needed medical assistance to conceive, on DS9. The real question should be how Seska got pregnant by Culla so easily.

 

[TommyR01D]

I make some of that as part of our culture and body of laws. For us, there is an age of consent, and it is enforced regardless of a person's appearance or emotional maturity. If you sleep with a 15-year-old who looks and acts like she's 23, you're probably going to jail. The judge will not care how old she looked!

However, such a rule cannot be effectively applied to a species that will only live for nine years, given that the age of consent is well above that.

Even just on our planet the age of sexual consent has varied wildly across cultures. I assume that different species would have different ages.

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First of all, the term "pedo" does not apply here. We can all agree that Kes was physically mature. The issue at hand is exploiting an emotionally immature individual.

Second, Neelix did not seem creepy to me. He was simply the anti-Tuvok of the group. He interacted with people in a very effusive and energetic way, including the woman he loved.

Third, probably true about swiping left. However, I also think that regardless of how any of us might regard Neelix, Tom was a good and honorable person. He would not have considered an exploitative relationship. The love that he described sharing with Kes in "Before and After" was very genuine, and very emotional. It's too bad we never got to see it develop.

I think "paedophile" gets thrown around way too often in situations where it is categorically incorrect, and "creepy" is vague to the point of meaninglessness.

It can be depicted like TMP when Decker and Ilia/V'Ger performed in the climax.

Hehehehehe!

 

[Danja]

And as Kes has only seven years left to live, the series is going to last for seven seasons and they aren't getting home before that.

That was NOT a given.

The show was slated to be cancelled after Season 3 (it took the arrival of Seven of Nine in S4 to save the show).

 

[Guy Gardener]

That was NOT a given.

The show was slated to be cancelled after Season 3 (it took the arrival of Seven of Nine in S4 to save the show).

Nope.

The ratings went up for Scorpion part 1 and 2.

Scorpion part 2 got four months of advertising tantisizing the public. Money plus time, and all those new viewers pissed off after the gift, because as good as scorpion was, it was a special stunt.

A tiny bump and then they started going down again.

The argument can be made that they were gaining less new viewers than they were losing old viewers, which means the decline slowed, but that's academic, since less is less.

http://users.telenet.be/WebTrek/Voy/Ratings/ratings.html

Frankly they could have just made Jennifer Lien a Borg, and cut the difference.