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Should StarShips actively use probes to explore the unknown before entering into a area themselves?

I agree with that, and with what was mentioned that scanning ranges are basically in dozens of Ly's (30 for VOYm this would certainly be of great value),
You've already mentioned that USS Voyager's Long Range Sensor to be exactly 40 ly in Radius which is directly quoted from the ST:VOY ep "The Raven".

The question that I want answered is how far can the Lateral Sensor Arrays (Short range Sensors) actively scan up to?

We all know how far the Long-Range sensors on the Enterprise-D (17 ly) & Voyager can go up to (40 ly)

In the future, should they create a "Medium-Range" sensor and equip those sensors on every StarFleet vessel?
 
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You've already mentioned that USS Voyager's Long Range Sensor to be exactly 40 ly in Radius which is directly quoted from the ST:VOY ep "The Raven".

The question that I want answered is how far can the Lateral Sensor Arrays (Short range Sensors) actively scan up to?

We all know how far the Long-Range sensors on the Enterprise-D (17 ly) & Voyager can go up to (40 ly)

In the future, should they create a "Medium-Range" sensor and equip those sensors on every StarFleet vessel?

Short range scans seem to have a fairly limited range.
If we go by canon data or what we saw on TV, you need to be within several hundred thousand or millions km... depends really.
Short range transporters for example don't work from orbit... you need to approach the plantary surface to an altitute of 10km (a reduction from presumed 45 000 km - which to me seem too small in the 24th century - should have ranged in Ly's by that point).

It seems like a 4500x times drop for transporters.

Given that long range scans go up to 40 LY's for VOY, then medium range would probably be something along the lines of 17 Ly's (similar to what the Ent-D had for its long range about 7 years earlier - VOY is a more advanced ship, so what was high end before, it gets pushed into mid range at minimum in new technology... low range if the advance was bigger than expected).
And well under a Lightyear for short range scans... possibly solar system wide or less, depending on local conditions (which can reduce the effectiveness further).

I wouldn't be surprised if short range scans are limited to 1 AU though.

I don't think SF would need to make a 'medium sensor range' whcih would go onto all ships... each ship will probably sport latest in technology for a given class.
And even if its capabilities do not approach that of say USS Prometheus or Sovereign class at that point... its just a matter of time before technology is shrunk to the point where you will be able to give sovereign class (and beyond) capabilties to say Nova class ships.
 
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Short range scans seem to have a fairly limited range.
There's a reason why it's called "Short Range" sensors =D

If we go by canon data or what we saw on TV, you need to be within several hundred thousand or millions km... depends really.
Obviously different environmental conditions will limit said range, but assuming a normal open/empty space environment, it should be pretty long, but you're only thinking hundred's of thousands to millions of km only? Interesting.

Short range transporters for example don't work from orbit... you need to approach the plantary surface to an altitute of 10km (a reduction from presumed 45 000 km - which to me seem too small in the 24th century - should have ranged in Ly's by that point).

It seems like a 4500x times drop for transporters.
That's the "Back-Up Transporter Unit" It wasn't meant for standard operation, so I don't fault it for losing that much range since it wasn't meant to be a main-line transporter. And at that time, Voyager was damaged as well, so they weren't anywhere near full operational capabilities.

It's like comparing your basic porta-pottie to your standard luxurious toilet room at the most expensive hotel in the UAE.

Given that long range scans go up to 40 LY's for VOY, then medium range would probably be something along the lines of 17 Ly's (similar to what the Ent-D had for its long range about 7 years earlier - VOY is a more advanced ship, so what was high end before, it gets pushed into mid range at minimum in new technology... low range if the advance was bigger than expected).
And well under a Lightyear for short range scans... possibly solar system wide or less, depending on local conditions (which can reduce the effectiveness further).

I wouldn't be surprised if short range scans are limited to 1 AU though.

That sounds resonable for 24th century Short Range Sensor distances.

I don't think SF would need to make a 'medium sensor range' whcih would go onto all ships... each ship will probably sport latest in technology for a given class.
And even if its capabilities do not approach that of say USS Prometheus or Sovereign class at that point... its just a matter of time before technology is shrunk to the point where you will be able to give sovereign class (and beyond) capabilties to say Nova class ships.
Part of the flaw of old "Long Range Sensors" was that you had to rotate slowly while stationary to cover your entire Spherical Volume. That takes a long time, a unnecessary long time given how much time is needed to process info every degree you turn and to wait for signals to return back for every type of scan possible. And we all know that UFP/StarFleet has all sorts of scans they can perform.

Here's a history of Sensor Ranges that I gathered:
- In 2267, the sensors of the USS Enterprise were able to scan out to one parsec (3.26 light years) and give a near instantaneous result. (TOS: "The Enterprise Incident")
- Galaxy Class has a maximum long range sensor of 17 ly at low resolution
- Galaxy Class can distinguish a Federation Vessel at 10 ly
- In 2367. Lieutenant Commander Geordi La Forge stated that the long range sensors aboard the USS Enterprise-D were able to scan a radius of ten light years within a 24-hour period. That's a long time!
- Voyager was able to scan 40 ly for a borg vessel (I’m assuming Long Range)
- Voyager’s Astrometric Sensors had a range of 2500 ly’s (Completely different type of sensors than Long Range, closer to what we have now for modern day Astronomy & StarMapping; good for getting your bearings and figuring out where you are position wise within the Galaxy/Universe).
- In the 32nd Century, a SubSpace Relay Station can scan a 600 ly radius for StarFleet vessels (I'm assuming that's Long Range Sensors as well).

In my 26th Century Head Canon (starting from the Earth Year 2501/01-01 AD), there are Short/Medium/Long range sensors now. It's been ~122 years since the events of ST:Nemesis.

Short Range sensors are just updated Sensor Pallets on the Lateral Sensor Array, obviously more range than before due to updates in tech.
Medium Range sensors are just small AESA style Radar Panels mounted on the side of the hull somewhere to cover a ±120° wide Sensor Frustum.
Long Range sensors are embedded in the large Main Deflector Dish with more range and of course multi-functional use of said deflector =D.

The ranges I was thinking of for my timeline was:
Short Range sensors goes from your (several hundred thousand or millions km - 1 AU) to 1¼ Parsecs = 4.076955ly
Medium Range sensors = ~40.# ly, similar to what Voyager had, but mounted on various points on the hull to provide spherical coverage.
Long Range sensors gets bumped up to 100 ly.

These were the baseline Sensor Range specs for a 26th Century equivalent Defiant/Nova Class.
But I think I'll adjust the 1¼ Parsecs Short Range sensor and reserve that range for the largest/most power vessels in my fleet.
I'll stick with 1 AU as the baseline Short Range sensor range.
 
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- In the 32nd Century, a SubSpace Relay Station can scan a 600 ly radius for StarFleet vessels (I'm assuming that's Long Range Sensors as well).

Actually, it was mentioned that in the 32nd century, the subspace relay station's short range sensors had a radius of 600 Ly's.
Long range sensors went down during the Burn.

This isn't so bad. 600 Ly's is a pretty huge chunk amount of space... but it still seems a bit small next to all the advancements we saw in the 24th century.
Astrometrics and regular sensors could probably be combined with hypersubspace technology to create new type of technology which would have vastly superior properties.
In effect, it would have been a 'quantum jump' from UFP point of view.
Given that sensors and communications are seemingly reliant on each other (one cannot work without the other it seems), it seems like this kind of 'hybrid' would be more than doable and inevitable even.
Real time hypersubspace communications already work across 16 000 Lys as we saw (at least for a limited amount of time).
If we go by more 'conservative estimates', I'd say that 'actual' real time communications without bouncing signals off quantum singularities and such would probably have a range of 10 000 - 12 000 ly's for indefinite periods of time.



In my 26th Century Head Canon (starting from the Earth Year 2501/01-01 AD), there are Short/Medium/Long range sensors now. It's been ~122 years since the events of ST:Nemesis.


Short Range sensors are just updated Sensor Pallets on the Lateral Sensor Array, obviously more range than before due to updates in tech.
Medium Range sensors are just small AESA style Radar Panels mounted on the side of the hull somewhere to cover a ±120° wide Sensor Frustum.
Long Range sensors are embedded in the large Main Deflector Dish with more range and of course multi-functional use of said deflector =D.

The ranges I was thinking of for my timeline was:
Short Range sensors goes from your (several hundred thousand or millions km - 1 AU) to 1¼ Parsecs = 4.076955ly
Medium Range sensors = ~40.# ly, similar to what Voyager had, but mounted on various points on the hull to provide spherical coverage.
Long Range sensors gets bumped up to 100 ly.

These are baseline Sensor Range specs for a 26th Century equivalent Defiant/Nova Class.

Too small of a jump to be fair over such a vast period of time if you ask me.
Given that the 21st century (for us) will be equivalent to over 20 000 years of scientific and technical advancement (compared to the 20th century), the UFP would experience much higher levels of advancement because it already has far superior technology and the benefit of over 150 alien species in the late 24th century.

In that sense, the 'short range' sensors of 25th century should probably have the sensor and communication extreme range of the MIDAS array of the late 24th century (16 000 Ly's).

That's essentially what quantum jumps look like... and what would be more realistic expectation for UFP and the technology we saw.

In that sense, I don't think sensors of the 32nd century would be divided between 'regular', 'Astrometric' or 'Hypersubspace'... because very shortly after VOY's arrival, the UFP would probably try to combine all of that into one technology (5-10 years after its return) and just call it 'sensors' once it starts being installed on ships throughout the fleet.

By the time of ST: Picard, SF ship sensors would basically be an umbrella term which have all the aforementioned technologies rolled into one.

But that's just my perception.
 
But that's just my perception.
I guess my estimates are a bit more conservative than yours.

No surprise there.

600 ly for Short Range sensors, that's crazy!

But given it's a HUGE Fixed Installation, I'm not all that surprised.

That relay station looked simular in size to Regula 1 space station.
 
I guess my estimates are a bit more conservative than yours.

No surprise there.

Different outlooks on how technology and science evolve I suppose and what UFP technology demonstrated to date... I try to bring it more in line with real life projections and what's presently happening - and that's actually a conservative estimate considering the fact that we will continue to experience an acceleration of acceleration and the fact we are not even using the best in terms of synthetic materials with superior properties which can be made in sustainable abundance and are in fact constring ourselves because of the market and 'cost efficiency'.

The UFP would by that measure experience much faster evolutions and jumps in science and technology when you factor other things.

600 ly for Short Range sensors, that's crazy!

But given it's a HUGE Fixed Installation, I'm not all that surprised.

That relay station looked simular in size to Regula 1 space station.

While 600 Ly's for short range sensors may seem crazy from our point of view... it really isn't when you factor in how much time has actually passed since the late 24th century (which already demonstrated extreme sensor ranges ranging thousands of LY's) and just what size that relay station was (not to mention how HUGE the Milky Way Galaxy actually is - on a galactic scale, 600 Ly's is relatively small when you factor in the premise our galaxy stretches across 150 000 Ly's... so 600 ly's is about 250 times smaller).

While we don't know how big the MIDAS array was... it seemed proverbially TINY in comparison to the 32nd century relay station (which looked more like a starbase -this is one of the reasons why I was disappointed).

The passage of time is just too extreme to think the range would be that small.

Taking a page from real life... under current conditions where we make technology from 'cost efficiency and profit' point of view (not 'technical efficiency, problem solving and sustainability' one), let's take a look at the GPU and CPU evolutions:
Highest end performance from 2 years ago ends up going down to the 'mid range' level.
After a period of roughly 4 years, what used to be the high end is now the low end.

So, translating that to Trek, and using lets say just regular subspace sensors... if such an increase continued (and there's no reason to think it can't), we could extrapolate the following:

VOY short range sensors of say 1AU ends up being 2 AU on say the USS Prometheus which would have a maximum sensor range of 80Ly's - and that's just 4 years after VOY was put into active service.

In essence, every 4 years, you end up with a doubling effect in range/performance in the same power envelope

The next 4 years (or about a year after VOY returned home - 2379) would equal another doubling in range... so short range scans are now up to 4AU.

2383 - short range scans are up to 8AU (Long range scans up to 160 Ly's)
2387 - short range scans are up to 16 AU (l.r. scans up to 320Ly's)
2391 - short range scans are up to 32AU (long range up to 640 Ly's)
2395 - short range scans are up to 64 AU (long range up to 1024 ly's)
2399 - up to 128 AU (long range up to 2048 ly's)
2403 - 256 AU (long range up to 4096 Ly's)
2407 - 512 AU (long range up to 8192 Ly's)
2411 - 1024 AU (long range up to 16384 Ly's)
2415 - 2048 AU (long range up to 32768 Ly's)
2419 - 4096 AU (long range up to 65 536 Ly's)
2423 - 8192 AU (long range up to 131 072 Ly's)
2427 - 16 384 AU (long range up to 262 144 Ly's)
2431 - 32 768 AU (long range up to 524 288 Ly's)
2435 - 65 536 AU (or 1.036 Ly's) - (long range up to 1.048 million Ly's)
2439 - 2.072 Ly's (long range up to 2.097 million Ly's)
2443 - 4.144 Ly's (long range up to 4.194 million ly's)
2447 - 8.288 Ly's (long range up to 8.388 million ly's)
2451 - 16.576 Ly's (long range up to 16.777 million ly's)
2455 - 33.152 Ly's (long range up to 33.554 million ly's)
2459 - 66.304 Ly's (long range up to 67.108 million ly's)
2463 - 132.608 Ly's (long range up to 134.217 million ly's)
2467 - 256.216Ly's (long range up to 268.435 million ly's)
2471 - 512.432 Ly's (long range up to 536.870 million ly's)
2475 - 1024.864 Ly's (long range up to 1.073 billion ly's).

So, every 2 years for 100 years = 50% increase in performance/range in the same power envelope for short range sensors.
Meanwhile, long range scans would have jumped to half a billion ly's in range (this obviously doesn't take into account hypersubspace or Astrometrics).

So, 100 years, after Voyager's launch, the short range scans would have increased to 512.432 Ly's... that's if you follow existing 'cost efficiency and profit' curve... if it was doing what Trek indicated would have done (focused on technical efficiency, using superior synthetic materials which can be made with minimal environmental footprint and sustainability in mind), the capabilites of the said technology would be FAR higher (at least 10 - 100x better).

But as you see, 50% increase in performance per watt every 2 years is more or less a standard and I didn't want to deviate from that because its something that people more or less see today (so its easier to comprehend)... and we're finding new ways to maintain (and even surpass that).
That's just from 1 species experiecing advancements in an outdated socio-economic system.
The UFP in a system without monetary constraints and focusing on technical efficiency and superior synthetic materials wouldn't be constricted by outdated market paradigms and would have much larger jumps in technology as a result (which would be compounded by the joining of other alien species who would bring their own perspectives, science and technology to the table).
Couple that with AI or at least adaptive algorithms for R&D which accelerates things for us by AT LEAST 1000x on regular computers... you get how easily this gets out of control in terms of numbers and just how far technology would evolve in a short amount of time.


So, based on that, the 32nd century looks ridiculously dated if you ask me and what we saw (aka, 600 Ly's for short range scans) would have been more appropriate for the late 25th century.
 
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Taking a page from real life... under current conditions where we make technology from 'cost efficiency and profit' point of view (not 'technical efficiency, problem solving and sustainability' one), let's take a look at the GPU and CPU evolutions:
Highest end performance from 2 years ago ends up going down to the 'mid range' level.
After a period of roughly 4 years, what used to be the high end is now the low end.

So, translating that to Trek, and using lets say just regular subspace sensors... if such an increase continued (and there's no reason to think it can't), we could extrapolate the following:
I wouldn't use CPU/GPU Processing Power Increases to be analogous to Radio Transceiver increases based on IRL Laws of Physics with Radio waves.

If you want Radio Wave / SubSpace Radio Wave Telecom transmission improvements, you need to follow the history of the Radio Transceiver.

Don't just apply whatever you feel like to increase performance in a different field that meets rate of improvements in your head.

CPU/GPU processing power is fine for increasing Computer Performance, but one area is not directly analagous to another.

You really should follow the specific industry trends & developments for those rates of improvement.

You really should start with the History of Radar, then the History of the Radio Transceiver and wireless communications protocols.

I'm having a VERY HARD time believing that Wireless Subspace tech can improve at that rate.

The way you do your projections breaks my suspension of belief based on what I know from IRL tech and how every area is advancing.

Here's a good basic article on Radar - Factors affecting RADAR performance.

Here's a good starting website on understanding more technical/scientific/mathematical details about RADAR.

As far as CPU/GPU innovations, that industry is what I follow closely and it isn't as fast as you think it is.

GPU's generally go down by 1 tier of performance each generation of the product stack.
It's been that way for over a decade.

And Intel LITERALLY froze the entire industry for 10 years when we were stuck at Quad Core without any real innovation, that's when Ryzen came in and played catch up and just recently surpassed Intel on both the Productivity & Gaming front with the Latest Generation (Ryzen 5000).
The push for Performance Per Watt has been a VERY recent phenomena in the past 5 years, where before everybody in the PC industry focused on Process Node Shrinkage to bring performance gains, now that process node improvements has been slowing down since we're getting very close to the Atomic Limit, everybody is focusing on Performance Per Watt as one of the main ways to improve performance.

Here's a lecture by Jim Keller on how Performance has improved over the years. I've already watched it several times, but you really should watch it.

The way performance has improved hasn't been the way you think it has been going.
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The path forward also won't be as simple or straight forward as you think it is either.
 
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I'm having a VERY HARD time believing that Wireless Subspace tech can improve at that rate.

Considering that Tesla demonstrated wireless transfer of power in late 19th century, I do think its more than possible.
Its just that we live in a system which is limited by the amount of money it can invest in.
If investors see a technology as too outlandish or even too expensive, it won't be invested into.

Take maglev for example. Invented in 1960-ies and already in 1974 we had proposals that the technology can be paired with vacuum tubes which would propel the said trains to velocities of 2000 miles per hr.
We hadn't done this due to cost efficiency constraints. Even now we are barely using the technology.

Take UK for example, it would have costed £60 billion to connect Brigton to Aberdeen (and pass through all major cities) and then back along the coast... and yet, the idiot government is stupidly investing into HS2 which is based on outdated rail technology (on which they already spent over £100 billion).

This is just one example of monetary constrains and investing into stupidly outdated approaches that long term would become obsolete extremely fast (a product of outdated thinking and 0 indication of what we can actually do).

In the UFP, monetary constraints don't exist... and as such wouldn't experience same hangups.

Looking at also what scientists are doing when it comes to increasing overall range and quality of wireless communications (especially using quantum based technologies), the market itself has only just now begun to 'catch up' and invest more in the infrastructure because investors are seeing potential profit in that area.


The way you do your projections breaks my suspension of belief based on what I know from IRL tech and how every area is advancing.

Exponential advancements and returns usually do end up breaking people's perceptions... most people cannot think along those lines because they aren't taught.
Heck, even I am having a hard time thinking about it, but the difference is that I take it into account.
That's why I said my projections are conservative at best.

Also, how every area is currently advancing is intrinsically LIMITED by the amount of MONEY that flows into it (and majority of it is NOT spent on infrastructure, science, technology or improvement of quality of life for everyone - least of all there is very LITTLE in how much is spent on environmental protection and repair).

In short, how we develop at the moment has nothing to do with the amount of resources we can shuffle into a given project and just developing the BEST in that area and improve upon it.
Instead, atm, humanity looks at things from a pure monetary point of view... since this doesn't exist in UFP, the same limitations do NOT apply.

As far as CPU/GPU innovations, that industry is what I follow closely and it isn't as fast as you think it is.

GPU's generally go down by 1 tier of performance each generation of the product stack.
It's been that way for over a decade.

That's why I said that on average high end ends up in the mid end after about two years, and in another two years, it will end up in the low end.

And Intel LITERALLY froze the entire industry for 10 years when we were stuck at Quad Core without any real innovation, that's when Ryzen came in and played catch up and just recently surpassed Intel on both the Productivity & Gaming front with the Latest Generation (Ryzen 5000).
The push for Performance Per Watt has been a VERY recent phenomena in the past 5 years where everybody in the PC industry focused on it because Process Node Shrinkage has been slowing down since we're getting very close to the Atomic Limit.

You're again constraining things to the 'competition' aspect within the market system which is intrinsically limited by the amount of money that goes into a given segment (not the amount physical resources that could be easily shuffled into a project with relatively minimal effort - especially if the raw material is sourced from landfills, broken down into base elements and reconstituted into what we need - no need for outdated 'mining of fresh resources').

Intel also held a monopoly on the market for that decade and was BRIBING OEM's to not include AMD's technology in their systems, or to basically pair it with subpar hw.
This is Capitalist limitation which has NOTHING to do with how much technology could have progressed in the absence of the market and money where needed resources were simply shuffled into creation of superior computer chips.

For example, we had numerous proposals for using carbon composites as a replacement for silicon in chip construction dating back to the 1990-ies, but were never really explored properly due to 'cost efficiency' limitations as dictated by the Capitalist market.

Fact remains that IBM developed proposals in holographic storage since 1990 for example and we have YET to see it in practical use.
In fact the first touch screens were invented in the 1970-ies... and we hadn't seen them deployed on a large scale until multiple decades later... mainly again due to cost efficiency getting in the way.

The UFP (I'll repeat) has no such constraints... and would be shuffling enough RESOURCES into practically every sector... some more than others perhaps, but regardless, evolution in every sector would have radically ECLIPSED what we are doing when money is out of the picture.

Look at Warp drive. When Voyager launched, it was able to sustain Warp 9.75 for 12 hrs.
4 years later, the USS Prometheus was stolen by the Romulans and was maintaining Warp 9.9 with relative ease with no indication it needs to stop at that velocity.

So, we have seen pretty much a doubling (or more) in Warp speed in just 4 years from an FTL engine which is arguably a LOT more difficult to advance (given exponential increases in power consumption) compared to sensor technology.

Also, we have more advanced proposals for communications and sensor technology, but existing companies on the market and their monopolies do not necessarily allow such proliferation until older tech has been effectively 'milked for all its worth' in terms of money... or until new tech demonstrates it can generate large amount of profit.

And again, the existing industry doesn't really consider the prospect of harvesting old/existing technology for raw materials which could be used to create new technology in its place. Instead, they go off and create even higher environmental impacts by taking up more and more space with 0 regard to the environment - they don't really look at the bigger picture... which is why real life is no where near indicative of how fast technology and science could actually evolve due to artificial limitations we have in place.

Again, such limitations and mindsets wouldn't exist in UFP.
At least, its definitely not difficult for me to see this... but maybe part of the reason is because I read advancements in science and technology ona regular basis, then contrast that to how fast the market 'reacts' and implements them... and the market is ridiculously slow.
In essence, our science and technology are evolving today so fast that they have SURPASSED the outdated socio-economic system we have (which is struggling as is).
 
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I would think that mostly scouts and surveyors would routinely use probes to speed up their exploration. (If there is still such a thing as exploration in Star Trek! :lol:)

We’re not talking about launching a probe into space. How absurd! But if you want to quickly survey a solar system to acquire the next level of detail before moving on to the next one, probes could save a lot of time in systems where you want to get details on multiple bodies without sending multiple surveyors to the same systems.
 
Considering that Tesla demonstrated wireless transfer of power in late 19th century, I do think its more than possible.
Its just that we live in a system which is limited by the amount of money it can invest in.
If investors see a technology as too outlandish or even too expensive, it won't be invested into.
Tesla demonstrated the "most Basic Understanding" of how to do it, but he was one of literally a handful of people on Earth who could understand the science behind it. Science was still incredibly in it's nascent stage at that point in time when Tesla was around.

Investors didn't understand the costs behind it versus the costs behind delivering power via AC/DC lines.

We also know now that there is significant EMF / Radiation limits we need to consider because of Wireless power transfer and how it affects the human body, that's something they didn't understand back then and were rightly cautious about the effects on the human body.

And it's significantly more efficient to deliver electrical power over wire than by wireless transfer of power.

You have less wasted electricty spent to power/charge your device.

Take maglev for example. Invented in 1960-ies and already in 1974 we had proposals that the technology can be paired with vacuum tubes which would propel the said trains to velocities of 2000 miles per hr.
We hadn't done this due to cost efficiency constraints. Even now we are barely using the technology.

Take UK for example, it would have costed £60 billion to connect Brigton to Aberdeen (and pass through all major cities) and then back along the coast... and yet, the idiot government is stupidly investing into HS2 which is based on outdated rail technology (on which they already spent over £100 billion).

This is just one example of monetary constrains and investing into stupidly outdated approaches that long term would become obsolete extremely fast (a product of outdated thinking and 0 indication of what we can actually do).

In the UFP, monetary constraints don't exist... and as such wouldn't experience same hangups.
The HyperLoop is just a modern take on vacuum trains with maglev tech, and there are ALL sorts of reasons why you shouldn't persue it, ALOT of it is safety reasons along with the resources needed to make a truly safe Vacuum Tube and the amount of time it takes to pump in/out the vacuum along with issues dealing with implosions, maintaining said track, the efficiency of delivering people. It's alot of Pie in the Skie dreaming and it's not practical for a whole host of reasons beyond "Money".

Rail Technology is resource and cost efficient. Even if there was no money, there are Raw Matter / Energy concerns in the UFP along with maintenance and Energy Consumption compared to # of People moved for ___ distance.

Government just don't spend more resources because it's Faster/Shinier/Newer. There has to be a marked improvement on Energy/Unit Matter spent to move ___ people over ___ distance for ___ years of operation before replacement and maintenance.

No UFP Government would just spend more Energy/Unit Matter or need more Maintenance just because you want the new Fast/Shiny.

There are Safety concerns, resource allocation concerns, Energy Consumption, Reliability, Repairability, etc.

Looking at also what scientists are doing when it comes to increasing overall range and quality of wireless communications (especially using quantum based technologies), the market itself has only just now begun to 'catch up' and invest more in the infrastructure because investors are seeing potential profit in that area.
Please show me IRL working Quantum based Wireless communication that actually works in mass production.

Exponential advancements and returns usually do end up breaking people's perceptions... most people cannot think along those lines because they aren't taught.
Heck, even I am having a hard time thinking about it, but the difference is that I take it into account.
That's why I said my projections are conservative at best.

Also, how every area is currently advancing is intrinsically LIMITED by the amount of MONEY that flows into it (and majority of it is NOT spent on infrastructure, science, technology or improvement of quality of life for everyone - least of all there is very LITTLE in how much is spent on environmental protection and repair).
That's because most advancements in IRL history aren't as "Exponential" as you think they are, regardless of money and your detest/hatred for Capitalism.

Environmental Protection and repair didn't even start to come into the public conciousness until the late 1950's / 1960's. Before then, most people/"the masses" never understood the Ecology of our World, or how we are damaging the Environment. It's only been a relatively recent trend in the past few decades that we as a larger society focused on it.

In short, how we develop at the moment has nothing to do with the amount of resources we can shuffle into a given project and just developing the BEST in that area and improve upon it.
Instead, atm, humanity looks at things from a pure monetary point of view... since this doesn't exist in UFP, the same limitations do NOT apply.
You'll be surprised, it's more than just "Monetary" PoV right now. Otherwise companies like Tesla or SunPower wouldn't survive or exist, regardless of money. There are a finite set of people who understand the most high level of any given field.

You can't just shove people into ___ field and magically make it progress, real life isn't a game of Civilization.

A.I. isn't some magical element that you think it is that will automatically fix things. If you understood how A.I. IRL really works, you'll easily understand all it's weaknesses and limitations.

That's why I said that on average high end ends up in the mid end after about two years, and in another two years, it will end up in the low end.
I've been following the PC market since I was a kid, easily for over 20 years, it's not a "Doubling" every 2 years, far from it, and it's definitely not just "High end shifts to mid, and then to low end.

There are FAR more tiers of performance and far more nuance when it comes to every generations pushing of the performance envelope at the top end. It's not as simple as you think it is.

Same with CPU's. ArsTechnica did a decent job showing 20 years of CPU performance gains.
It's not the most in depth or accurate, but reading the article gives you a very rough estimate of performance improvements over each generation, and it's largely linear increases in performance with a few jumps here and there based on big break throughs.

You're again constraining things to the 'competition' aspect within the market system which is intrinsically limited by the amount of money that goes into a given segment (not the amount physical resources that could be easily shuffled into a project with relatively minimal effort - especially if the raw material is sourced from landfills, broken down into base elements and reconstituted into what we need - no need for outdated 'mining of fresh resources').
Improvements in technology is far more than shoveling in raw materials, even with recycling existing matter from landfills.

And resources are more than just "Physical Units to allocate".

When you go to R&D, many aspects that you thought would pan out, don't work once you test it. Even if you want to bring it into mass production, it might not be scalable on a mass production way.

Intel also held a monopoly on the market for that decade and was BRIBING OEM's to not include AMD's technology in their systems, or to basically pair it with subpar hw.
Yes, I know all about Intel's criminal past and how it violated Anti-Trust.

This is Capitalist limitation which has NOTHING to do with how much technology could have progressed in the absence of the market and money where needed resources were simply shuffled into creation of superior computer chips.
Even with infinite money, there are only a finite amount of people who are good enough at every stage of R&D, CPU design, engineering, etc.

Electrical Engineering and improving Computer CPU's / GPU's / Electronics isn't something where you can grow talented engineers on trees or shovel them out of a University and see them make revolutions over night.

That's not how it works. Even without a Monetary System like the UFP, there are only a few talented people good enough to push the boundaries of each field of technology, it's not something where you will magically solve everything via brute force or computer power.

Even the Borg, with it's vast computing Collective AI, still needed to assimilate entire species instead of creating all new technology on it's own. It lacks the creative insight on how to R&D / develop technologies. It can only solve problems based on it's limited tool kit and lacks the creativity to truly innovate on it's own. That's why it needed Janeways method to defeat Species 8472.

For example, we had numerous proposals for using carbon composites as a replacement for silicon in chip construction dating back to the 1990-ies, but were never really explored properly due to 'cost efficiency' limitations as dictated by the Capitalist market.
It's more than just "Cost Efficiency" bro, there are finite amounts of people who truly understand how the entire system works together, there is a more than just $$$ reasons why we still stick to silicon instead of moving to carbon or graphene as the die-electric layer. Alot of it has to do with figuring out how to make Carbon / Graphene a truly mass producable replacement for Silicon that has all the benefits and none of the down-sides. It's never as simple as just "Throw Money at it".

Money is just a small aspect of the issue.

Fact remains that IBM developed proposals in holographic storage since 1990 for example and we have YET to see it in practical use.
Because Holographic Storage has yet to become practical compared to magnetic, it's easier to innovate and improve storage capacity based on magnetic systems than using Holographic. Don't just believe the hype everytime somebody writes a science article promising ___ improvements. There are ALOT more roadblocks than you think there are when it comes to R&D that goes beyond $$$.

In fact the first touch screens were invented in the 1970-ies... and we hadn't seen them deployed on a large scale until multiple decades later... mainly again due to cost efficiency getting in the way.
The technology to do Star Trek like Touch Screen wasn't really feasible on a technological level until the mid 00's. It has nothing to do with cost efficiency and more to do with the hardware level needed to make it happen.

The UFP (I'll repeat) has no such constraints... and would be shuffling enough RESOURCES into practically every sector... some more than others perhaps, but regardless, evolution in every sector would have radically ECLIPSED what we are doing when money is out of the picture.
It's never as simple as just "Throwing Resources" at the problem, if you ever did any real engineering or complicated work on a massive project, you'll understand that many times, it goes beyond $$$, but there are real technological impediments that can't be just solved via throwing resources at things.

You're understanding of real world R&D and how things gets developed seems to be overly simplistic.

Look at Warp drive. When Voyager launched, it was able to sustain Warp 9.75 for 12 hrs.
4 years later, the USS Prometheus was stolen by the Romulans and was maintaining Warp 9.9 with relative ease with no indication it needs to stop at that velocity.

So, we have seen pretty much a doubling (or more) in Warp speed in just 4 years from an FTL engine which is arguably a LOT more difficult to advance (given exponential increases in power consumption) compared to sensor technology.
And I've done the math for the actual Wf 9.75 -> Wf 9.9 based on Tom Paris' statement on how fast Wf 9.9 is from the episode "The 37's". Wf 9.9 ~= 21,473c

And the increase in speed from Wf 9.75 -> Wf 9.9 when converted to multiples of c (Speed of Light) is only a 16⅔ % improvement in linear speed "AT Best", if you use the cubic formula, it'll be even smaller % of an increase.

It's not the dramatic gain that you're making it out to be of "Doubling performance in 4 years".

Also, we have more advanced proposals for communications and sensor technology, but existing companies on the market and their monopolies do not necessarily allow such proliferation until older tech has been effectively 'milked for all its worth' in terms of money... or until new tech demonstrates it can generate large amount of profit.
Please show me where it is, this advanced technology for communications and sensor technology that is being held back by the evils of $$$.

And again, the existing industry doesn't really consider the prospect of harvesting old/existing technology for raw materials which could be used to create new technology in its place. Instead, they go off and create even higher environmental impacts by taking up more and more space with 0 regard to the environment - they don't really look at the bigger picture... which is why real life is no where near indicative of how fast technology and science could actually evolve due to artificial limitations we have in place.
Harvesting raw materials vs recycling existing raw materials and refining it down to it's base matter is a matter of challenge, difficulty in seperation of all it's chemical components while being energy, matter, and resource efficient.

It's not that simple, we can't just rip apart everything atom by atom for recycling and get perfect recycling and reuse. And it comes down to more than just $$. There's energy, labor, time, etc.

Again, such limitations and mindsets wouldn't exist in UFP.
At least, its definitely not difficult for me to see this... but maybe part of the reason is because I read advancements in science and technology ona regular basis, then contrast that to how fast the market 'reacts' and implements them... and the market is ridiculously slow.
In essence, our science and technology are evolving today so fast that they have SURPASSED the outdated socio-economic system we have (which is struggling as is).
There are resource allocation issues in the UFP, it's all there in the Beta canon and Alpha canon as well.
Just because the UFP has better recycling doesn't mean it doesn't have matter / energy resource allocation issues along with man power, R&D budget allocations, etc.
 
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Sensors are like glasses for bad eyes, and probes are like magnifying glasses. The technology keeps getting better and better every year, but at some point, you have perfect vision when you put them on. After that, you are just trading them in for style.
 
With the latest Trek series having ships dropping out of warp blind to what is at the arrival point maybe launching a probe to survey the arrival space would make some sense?
 
With the latest Trek series having ships dropping out of warp blind to what is at the arrival point maybe launching a probe to survey the arrival space would make some sense?
Look at what happened to the Enterprise in the Rebooted "Star Trek Movie".
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Even if it wasn't "A Trap", if you jumped out of FTL and right into the middle of all that Debris, that could be a accident waiting to happen.

The USS Discovery encountered a similar situation where it warped out right into the middle of a dense Asteroid Field in Season 2 Ep 1.
 
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They are supposed to decelerate before finally returning to sublight speed. Of course, doing that would make for a boring video.

First responders know to first assess the situation and achieve situational awareness in order to avoid becoming casualties themselves. Again, makes for boring video.
 
They are supposed to decelerate before finally returning to sublight speed. Of course, doing that would make for a boring video.

First responders know to first assess the situation and achieve situational awareness in order to avoid becoming casualties themselves. Again, makes for boring video.
You just need a better Director and Writer to make a exciting video without doing dumb things like risking your entire StarShip by Warping out inside the Debris/Asteroid field.
 
You just need a better Director and Writer to make a exciting video without doing dumb things like risking your entire StarShip by Warping out inside the Debris/Asteroid field.

I think it is this current crop of writers that is presenting ships that operate like they are flying in hyperspace instead of warp. Previously warp ships could see what was around them at warp so they could steer around them to avoid collisions at warp speed. Nowadays its like a calculated flight jumping into warp and out of warp like it was a hyperspace trip. Having a probe fly ahead at the arrival zone would make more sense now.
 
I think it is this current crop of writers that is presenting ships that operate like they are flying in hyperspace instead of warp. Previously warp ships could see what was around them at warp so they could steer around them to avoid collisions at warp speed. Nowadays its like a calculated flight jumping into warp and out of warp like it was a hyperspace trip. Having a probe fly ahead at the arrival zone would make more sense now.
Every time that I've seen them warp out into the middle of a Debris/Asteroid field, it's been with TOS era StarShips.

So there might have been sensor limitations at that time that TNG era ships don't have.
 
The 2009 thing might be more a case of procedure than performance.

Vulcan is a "civilized" planet. It should have traffic control down pat. And one aspect of this would be to always reserve a deceleration lane for incoming emergency sorties, so that even with comms down, the space cavalry can warp straight into low orbit and immediately get to work.

The smart thing for Nero to do, then, would be to leave a droplet of Red Matter right in the middle of that deceleration lane...

As we generally saw in that movie, Nero's defensive capabilities were pretty much nil. Twice in a row, he couldn't disable a starship (no matter how outdated or small) thundering towards his rig to literally save his life, despite "firing everything". But he was a habitual kidnapper of people who knew things. Knowing about the safe lane above Vulcan would solve half his problem. The other half would be information warfare, too: to make sure that those incoming would have no reason to believe in a threat, or in any sort of complications with the lane.

What was being scanned there would have been classic short range stuff: trying to determine the cause of the "seismic problem", the evac and triage needs etc. Scanning for starships where there by law were supposed to be none would not occur to the cadet crews. And Pike was being distracted by that one idiot cadet at the key moment.

OTOH, what saved Pike was his failure to maintain fleet speed and formation. A probe flying ahead of a starship would achieve exactly that. If only the endurance and speed problems could be solved somehow...

Timo Saloniemi
 
The 2009 thing might be more a case of procedure than performance.

Vulcan is a "civilized" planet. It should have traffic control down pat. And one aspect of this would be to always reserve a deceleration lane for incoming emergency sorties, so that even with comms down, the space cavalry can warp straight into low orbit and immediately get to work.

The smart thing for Nero to do, then, would be to leave a droplet of Red Matter right in the middle of that deceleration lane...

As we generally saw in that movie, Nero's defensive capabilities were pretty much nil. Twice in a row, he couldn't disable a starship (no matter how outdated or small) thundering towards his rig to literally save his life, despite "firing everything". But he was a habitual kidnapper of people who knew things. Knowing about the safe lane above Vulcan would solve half his problem. The other half would be information warfare, too: to make sure that those incoming would have no reason to believe in a threat, or in any sort of complications with the lane.

What was being scanned there would have been classic short range stuff: trying to determine the cause of the "seismic problem", the evac and triage needs etc. Scanning for starships where there by law were supposed to be none would not occur to the cadet crews. And Pike was being distracted by that one idiot cadet at the key moment.

OTOH, what saved Pike was his failure to maintain fleet speed and formation. A probe flying ahead of a starship would achieve exactly that. If only the endurance and speed problems could be solved somehow...

Timo Saloniemi

Probes, along with scout ships, and where the hell was the Vulcan Science Academy?
 
No boy scouts on that sortie: nobody would have been telling anybody "be prepared".

Why Vulcans didn't do it is clear: Nero was jamming them with his drill. And apparently sending out false messages in their name, because the whole "seismic troubles" SOS was sent well before Nero started drilling and shaking the planet.

Why Starfleet didn't do it is clear: their best and brightest were at Laurentius, and those left behind bought into the fake SOS and thought that there was no need for preparedness.

But yes, it's a bit of a mystery why Vulcan ships and craft weren't doing more. As noted, Nero had little power over spacecraft, while OTOH his offensive drill was immensely vulnerable to sticks, stones and stern looks. So we're missing the trick he used to stop flying minivans from thwarting his plans, both over Shi'Kahr and over San Francisco. Perhaps a fight-fire-with-fire response wherein Nero had small weapons to keep small craft at bay, and never tried to wield those against the big ships of the heroes?

Possibly defensive probes...? A mining rig might well come equipped with a veritable swarm of drones capable of detonating small holes in rocks for prospecting purposes, in addition to carrying stuff that blasts bigger holes in bigger rocks. The former would see action against Vulcan and Earth shuttles exclusively, the latter against starships exclusively. (Nero fired the same ordnance against the ship and her shuttles in 2233, though.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
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