What did you think of Kirk kicking Kruge to his death?

[jackoverfull]

Kirk even tried to save him after he had ordered David’s death, he had what he had to do and his conscience is probably totally clean here.

The better question is: did Kirk lose any sleep over the premeditated murder of 12 or so Klingons slightly earlier, Klingons that were just following the orders of their cruel captain?

Again, I think that his actions in luring them on the enterprise and then blowing it up were totally justified, but I also think that his conscience might second-guess him afterwards.

 

[Timo]

...Heck, Kirk begins his televised career by ordering the killing of the Salt Vampire, with alternatives aplenty. "Enlightened" certainly doesn't extend to folks who look sufficiently different from humans. Or perhaps that's the enlightened bit, not needlessly antropomorphizing vampires and gods and computers and Klingon scum?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vger23]

This is one of those instances where we're only human.

Kirk is already angry about him having his son executed, yet even still, he tries to rescue him. I think when Kruge tried to pull him down in the pit that was the last straw. Now it was Kirk or Kruge (or both) and Kirk chose self preservation. Starfleet wouldn't expect Kirk to die needlessly in that situation. Now...maybe kicking him in the head as he's saying he's had enough of him...perhaps that's not very Starfleety, but it's very human.

I always found a similar situation in Nemesis when Riker goes after the Viceroy and kicks him to his death. The Viceroy had raped his wife essentially. Perhaps Riker wasn't acting in a very Starfleety fashion, but he was acting like a husband who adored his wife. Ask any man who adores his wife or significant other what they would do in that situation and they'd want to do the same thing.

So I understand both situations and why Kirk and Riker did what they did. Partly it was self preservation, it was them or the enemy. But the added touch of revenge goes to show we are, after all, only human. Even in the 23rd or 24th centuries.

Human tendencies > Starfleet white-knighting

Kirk even tried to save him after he had ordered David’s death, he had what he had to do and his conscience is probably totally clean here.

The better question is: did Kirk lose any sleep over the premeditated murder of 12 or so Klingons slightly earlier, Klingons that were just following the orders of their cruel captain?

Again, I think that his actions in luring them on the enterprise and then blowing it up were totally justified, but I also think that his conscience might second-guess him afterwards.

I think this one is pretty simple too. The BoP had entered Federation space in violation of treaty, attacked and destroyed the Grissom (pretty much all hands lost) in absolute cold blood, and executed David, a non-military Federation citizen. Not to mention, their stated intentions were to steal highly sensitive Federation technological secrets with the goal of using them as a WMD.

Really no difference between this and the Enterprise destroying them in ship-to-ship combat. War is war. And Kirk had a responsiblity to ensure the Enterprise didn't fall into enemy hands.

Frankly, Kirk couldn't risk failure here. The risks were far too high.

 

[XCV330]

Kirk even tried to save him after he had ordered David’s death, he had what he had to do and his conscience is probably totally clean here.

The better question is: did Kirk lose any sleep over the premeditated murder of 12 or so Klingons slightly earlier, Klingons that were just following the orders of their cruel captain?

Again, I think that his actions in luring them on the enterprise and then blowing it up were totally justified, but I also think that his conscience might second-guess him afterwards.

It wasn't murder. They made an unprovoked attack on two starfleet ships, killed all of the crew of Grissom save for Saavik, and were trying to kill them too. He had every right to defend his crew, and the only weapon he had left was turning his ship into a bomb.

I think he was a lot sadder over losing his son and his ship than killing attackers. Doubt he would have lost a single minute of thought to the dead Klingons. He never showed any signs of sadism or anything like that. I don't think he enjoyed it, but doing whatever it took to get out of a jam was kind of his thing.

 

[Vger23]

I remember back in 2009 there was a flaming-hot thread on another forum about how awful and non-Star Trek it was that Kirk blasted Nero into oblivion at the end of the first Kelvinverse film.

I think that's basically the same circumstance. The guy destroyed an entire planet and may have caused the extinction of the Vulcan race. He possessed a terrifying WMD, showed no signs of weakness (40+ Klingon ships destroyed like a hot knife through butter, and a Starfleet rescue armada of 7 or 8 ships similarly annihilated in seconds), and had a stated intent of destroying every single Federation planet.

Kirk, despite the fact that this man was responsible for all this (not to mention creating a completely alternate timeline), and his father's death, still offered to save him and his crew. Nero told him to stick it up his jefferies tube...so Kirk destroyed him to ensure his trip into the black hole didn't simply result in another time travel event.

Any other response from Kirk (in the Nero or Kruge case) would acutually have been completely irresponsible and negligent in terms of his duties.

 

[jackoverfull]

I think this one is pretty simple too. The BoP had entered Federation space in violation of treaty, attacked and destroyed the Grissom (pretty much all hands lost) in absolute cold blood, and executed David, a non-military Federation citizen. Not to mention, their stated intentions were to steal highly sensitive Federation technological secrets with the goal of using them as a WMD.

Really no difference between this and the Enterprise destroying them in ship-to-ship combat. War is war. And Kirk had a responsiblity to ensure the Enterprise didn't fall into enemy hands.

Frankly, Kirk couldn't risk failure here. The risks were far too high.

As I wrote already, I feel he was totally justified. But the Klingon ambassador has a point when he sais that Kirk lured the crew into a deadly trap and consciences doesn’t work logically, so one’s might ache more about killing relatively innocent minion than the big bad cruel boss.

so Kirk destroyed him to ensure his trip into the black hole didn't simply result in another time travel event

ah, that was the reason? I suppose it does make sense and kinda saves that scene…I wish they said it in the movie, though, as I always felt that firing on the already dying, helpless Nero instead of getting the hell out of there was stupid and wrong and in the countless discussion I’ve seen on the topic this is the first time I see someone raising this very good point.

 

[Vger23]

As I wrote already, I feel he was totally justified. But the Klingon ambassador has a point when he sais that Kirk lured the crew into a deadly trap and consciences doesn’t work logically, so one’s might ache more about killing relatively innocent minion than the big bad cruel boss.

ah, that was the reason? I suppose it does make sense and kinda saves that scene…I wish they said it in the movie, though, as I always felt that firing on the already dying, helpless Nero instead of getting the hell out of there was stupid and wrong and in the countless discussion I’ve seen on the topic this is the first time I see someone raising this very good point.

It was certainly a risk...so I think it was a matter of "beam over here and we'll save you but also ensure you can't cause any more chaos across space and time" or destroy the Narada to be absolutely certain the ship didn't survive the process.

I think they had little choice in the matter (although, technically, the red matter was all gone....so the Narada didn't pose quite the same threat).

 

[Bad Robot]

None of what happened before matters. The guy had his foot.

You'd be lucky if you could kick him in the face without still being pulled over. You've got no leverage, only smooth flat rock and sand beneath your butt. He's already got your foot. So once you free your other foot to kick him...

He also doesn't have to let go after you've kicked him. If he's singleminded enough to do just ONE thing while you kick him to death, it's to not let go of your foot, no matter how many of his teeth you've dislodged.

It also seemed strange to me how Kirk seems to expect he's going to free himself in three kicks, not two or four or seven.

Hell even if Kruge accepted Kirk's hand, Kirk still has no leverage. He would lose his footing over the smooth rock and sand just trying to lean back far enough to counter Kruge's bulk (I have this problem in most movies whenever a person helps rescue somebody from the edge of a cliff and has no leverage).

I guarantee you I couldn't do it. Even if I miraculously survived that situation, I wouldn't want to defend myself after the fact. I wouldn't feel like I should have to. Middle fingers in the air, refuse to justify what's justified.

All objections aside, I love watching Kirk kick him in the FACE.

 

[Kor]

Funny, haven't seen that scene in years. It reminds me a bit of a low budget, 80s take of the Obi Wan/Anakin fight scene on the volcanic fire world. Kirk had the high ground.....

Funny how other franchises did pieces of this stories well before Lucasfilm. I've always thought about Green Lantern: Emerald Twilight in terms of it being a complete parallel, but the end of TSFS isn't that far off either. (Yeah, I know i'm reaching, but its the places my mind goes...)

I think the concept of Obi-Wan and Anakin's duel with Anakin falling into a pit of fiery lava first appeared in the ROTJ novelization in 1983.

Kirk even tried to save him after he had ordered David’s death, he had what he had to do and his conscience is probably totally clean here.

To get nitpicky, Kruge had told his henchman, "Kill one of them. I don't care which."
I don't know if Kirk knew enough Klingon to understand that, though. And the henchman was about to kill Saavik before David jumped into action. But again, Kirk didn't know that.

The better question is: did Kirk lose any sleep over the premeditated murder of 12 or so Klingons slightly earlier, Klingons that were just following the orders of their cruel captain?

Again, I think that his actions in luring them on the enterprise and then blowing it up were totally justified, but I also think that his conscience might second-guess him afterwards.

Some have pointed out that Kirk's deceptive actions here constituted perfidy, which is prohibited as a war crime. I wonder what other choice Kirk could have made in this situation.

Kor

 

[Damian]

Human tendencies > Starfleet white-knighting

Ha-ha, true. I actually like that our heros, while they try to do the right thing, aren't necessarily saints all the time. They still have the same humanity, they just try harder to be their better selves.

Frankly, Kirk couldn't risk failure here. The risks were far too high.

In a way it's probably lucky that Kirk stole the Enterprise and arrived when he did. If the Enterprise never arrived, Kruge may have tortured David until he got the information he wanted, which could have been a profound threat to the Federation.

And I just can't see the Klingons as being the injured party in any way. In a way I'm actually surprised the Klingon Ambassador made such a stink. I'm not sure what he was hoping to accomplish other than being a major PITA. First, the Klingons violated Federation territory and destroyed a Starfleet ship. And, at the end of the day, the Klingons all died in battle (well, except for Maltz), an honorable death in their eyes. That is what every Klingon hopes for. I was glad Sarek showed up in TVH to remind everyone of that. Yeah, Kirk broke regulations and would be punished for that, but the Klingons are hardly the injured party.

Kirk, despite the fact that this man was responsible for all this (not to mention creating a completely alternate timeline), and his father's death, still offered to save him and his crew. Nero told him to stick it up his jefferies tube...so Kirk destroyed him to ensure his trip into the black hole didn't simply result in another time travel event.

Yeah, not seeing the problem here either. Kirk made the offer and Nero refused. Now, he knew full well that Nero would tell him where he could shove that offer. But if the unthinkable happened and Nero actually surrendered, then Kirk would have rescued their crew and placed them under arrest. But, we all knew that wasn't going to happen. And at the end of the day Kirk was still a Starfleet officer tasked with protecting the Federation. Nero was a major threat and needed to be stopped.

Sometimes people get so wrapped up in all the peace talk about the Federation that they forget Starfleet is also tasked with protecting the Federation. It's why they went to war with the Dominion and didn't just surrender. It's not about never fighting, never destroying the enemy, never killing. It's about the steps you take to try to avoid that if possible. Starfleet does not shoot first. They do try negotiating, try to find the peaceful avenues first. It's when all that fails that war becomes necessary. In the Dominion War it wasn't until the Dominion attacked that war broke out. Starfleet never went to the Gamma Quadrant to start a fight with the Dominion, and even when they came through the wormhole to annex the Cardassian Empire, they still didn't attack. During the war itself they made attempts at negotiating and end to the conflict.

 

[Vger23]

And I just can't see the Klingons as being the injured party in any way. In a way I'm actually surprised the Klingon Ambassador made such a stink. I'm not sure what he was hoping to accomplish other than being a major PITA. First, the Klingons violated Federation territory and destroyed a Starfleet ship. And, at the end of the day, the Klingons all died in battle (well, except for Maltz), an honorable death in their eyes. That is what every Klingon hopes for. I was glad Sarek showed up in TVH to remind everyone of that. Yeah, Kirk broke regulations and would be punished for that, but the Klingons are hardly the injured party.

I think it was all politics. The Klingons knew they had a major cluster on their hands. They were playing politics and trying to spin it as though they were the victims in this instance to try and deflect the shit from hitting the fan and blasting them all in the face.

 

[SithHappens]

Nah he deserves to die, Kirk offered to save him. Kirk also showed compassion to the Klingon on the captured bird of prey with the 'fine I'll kill you later' followed by 'I lied'

 

[jackoverfull]

You'd be lucky if you could kick him in the face without still being pulled over. You've got no leverage, only smooth flat rock and sand beneath your butt. He's already got your foot. So once you free your other foot to kick him...

perhaps if Kirk just removed his boot it would have been more realistic…and we would be discussing his possible absence of socks instead!

It also seemed strange to me how Kirk seems to expect he's going to free himself in three kicks, not two or four or seven.

perhaps he felt the grip loosen after the first kick?

Anyway, the original fight was supposed to be very different, with the two of them fighting among boulders that emerged from the terrain, however the complex hydraulics failed, with only one of the boulders working, and the whole fight choreography had to be scrapped and redone. Kudos to Shatner, who managed to integrate many Kirk/fu moves from the series to make it feel more like a tos fight…I wonder if he considered having his shirt ripped for the full experience!

I think the concept of Obi-Wan and Anakin's duel with Anakin falling into a pit of fiery lava first appeared in the ROTJ novelization in 1983.

it definitely was.

To get nitpicky, Kruge had told his henchman, "Kill one of them. I don't care which."
I don't know if Kirk knew enough Klingon to understand that, though. And the henchman was about to kill Saavik before David jumped into action. But again, Kirk didn't know that.

true, and Kruge doesn’t know that David is Kirk’s son.

Some have pointed out that Kirk's deceptive actions here constituted perfidy, which is prohibited as a war crime. I wonder what other choice Kirk could have made in this situation.

in war it might have been considered a war crime, possibly, but there had been no war declaration, Kruge and his crew were essentially renegades not protected by any war convention or treaty…

…which makes extremely odd for the Klingon ambassador to make such a fuss. In the novelisation (I think, might have been in other related books) this is justified by revealing that Kruge is actually the son of the ambassador.

And I just can't see the Klingons as being the injured party in any way. In a way I'm actually surprised the Klingon Ambassador made such a stink. I'm not sure what he was hoping to accomplish other than being a major PITA.

Politics…by showing the federation engaging in supposed war crimes he might hope to stir some internal dissent or to worsen the federation relations with independent powers.

 

[trekshark]

I don't like that Kirk even tried to save Kruge other than for the above mentioned possibly needing Kruge to get Kirk and Spock beamed up

 

[Coops]

I think he asked for it, to be honest. And, although perhaps unintentionally, it was quite a dishonourable way to be offed too. Which makes it all the better.

 

[fireproof78]

I remember back in 2009 there was a flaming-hot thread on another forum about how awful and non-Star Trek it was that Kirk blasted Nero into oblivion at the end of the first Kelvinverse film.

I think that's basically the same circumstance. The guy destroyed an entire planet and may have caused the extinction of the Vulcan race. He possessed a terrifying WMD, showed no signs of weakness (40+ Klingon ships destroyed like a hot knife through butter, and a Starfleet rescue armada of 7 or 8 ships similarly annihilated in seconds), and had a stated intent of destroying every single Federation planet.

Kirk, despite the fact that this man was responsible for all this (not to mention creating a completely alternate timeline), and his father's death, still offered to save him and his crew. Nero told him to stick it up his jefferies tube...so Kirk destroyed him to ensure his trip into the black hole didn't simply result in another time travel event.

Any other response from Kirk (in the Nero or Kruge case) would acutually have been completely irresponsible and negligent in terms of his duties.

Yeah, not seeing the problem here either. Kirk made the offer and Nero refused. Now, he knew full well that Nero would tell him where he could shove that offer. But if the unthinkable happened and Nero actually surrendered, then Kirk would have rescued their crew and placed them under arrest. But, we all knew that wasn't going to happen. And at the end of the day Kirk was still a Starfleet officer tasked with protecting the Federation. Nero was a major threat and needed to be stopped.

Yeah, as a weapon against 09 this is the weakest one. Nero poses a threat, and has demonstrated that they can go through the red matter created black holes, and posses weapons that tear through ships. If surrender is not an option, then ending the threat is.

Some have pointed out that Kirk's deceptive actions here constituted perfidy, which is prohibited as a war crime. I wonder what other choice Kirk could have made in this situation.

Probably very limited given the damage to the ship systems. The only one I can think of is a delayed transporter trick like in "Day of the Dove" but I don't know if they could suspend the transport beam long enough to stop the Klingons.

 

[Kor]

...
Probably very limited given the damage to the ship systems. The only one I can think of is a delayed transporter trick like in "Day of the Dove" but I don't know if they could suspend the transport beam long enough to stop the Klingons.

The nuances of transporter functions and capability tend to vary according to the needs of the plot.

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

The nuances of transporter functions and capability tend to vary according to the needs of the plot.

Kor

That component would have been installed on Tuesday.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Kirk also laughed it off when Scotty beamed tribbles onto a Klingon ship, where they would likely destroy it from within and kill everyone on board. It's not like he's abided by Starfleet values when dealing with them.

 

[jackoverfull]

Probably very limited given the damage to the ship systems. The only one I can think of is a delayed transporter trick like in "Day of the Dove" but I don't know if they could suspend the transport beam long enough to stop the Klingons.

it’s not 100% clear how this work, but from the dialogue I seem to understand that the Klingon’s transporter was being used in conjunction with the one of the enterprise. If this was the case I imagine that holding the boarding party in the buffer would not have been an option.