Is Starfleet a military organization?

[J.T.B.]

Yes, Starfleet also uses the term Commander-in-Chief for its highest ranking officer, which seems really sloppy.

Is it the highest-ranking officer for sure? I remember one in ST6, but hasn't there also been a Starfleet Chief of Staff somewhere? "Chief of staff" seems more in line with modern ideas of high-level command and control.

As for sloppiness... In US history the navy had fleet commanders-in-chief since the early 1900s. Post WW2 the title was extended to Army (CINCUSAEUR) and Air Force (CINCSAC) commanders. Eventually it became the standard title for unified combatant commanders. Nobody confused them with the president. Even so, in 2002 Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld decided that only the president should have that title, and all the uniformed CinC's dropped the "in chief."

Spoiler: OT: The president and other commanders-in-chief in WW2

In WW2 the US Navy had the CinC US Fleet, CinC Pacific Fleet and CinC Atlantic Fleet. One day as FDR was gearing up to run for reelection in 1944, his military chief of staff Admiral Leahy approached the CinC US Fleet, Admiral King. King could be, let's say, not an easy person to deal with. Admiral Leahy said that the president would like the navy CinC's to drop the "in chief" from their titles. King thought this was political, to emphasize that the president was running the war. He said fine, when the president issues an order to that effect, I will do it. Leahy said the president did not want to issue an order, but would just like it to be done. King said, well, I personally see no reason to do that, and that was the end of it!

E.J. King and W.M. Whitehill, Fleet Admiral King: A Naval Record, 1952.

The British Royal Navy used the commander-in-chief title for fleet and major base commanders for hundreds of years. In WW2 they had CinC Portsmouth, CinC Plymouth, CinC the Nore, CinC Rosyth, CinC Western Approaches, CinC Home Fleet, CinC Mediterranean, CinC South Atlantic, CinC East Indies, CinC British Pacific Fleet and probably some I'm forgetting. I think the last RN CinC positions (CinC Fleet, CinC Home) were disestablished about 10 years ago.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Is it the highest-ranking officer for sure? I remember one in ST6, but hasn't there also been a Starfleet Chief of Staff somewhere? "Chief of staff" seems more in line with modern ideas of high-level command and control.

There may have been some variation on title over the years.

FADMs Bill Smillie, Kristen Clancy and Charles were specifically identified as the Commander in Chief during TOS-M, PIC & DSC respectively.

FADMs Harold Morrow and Lance Cartwright were "Commander, Starfleet" -- which IIRC TrekLit briefly used for the senior uniformed rank within Starfleet under the UFP President as CinC -- but may also be the senior "operational commander" instead.

There is also the position of Starfleet Chief of Staff (of the Federation Starfleet) which in RotF is equivalent to the CinC (or the US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs) and has several "deputy" Chiefs of Staff under him that cover each member service (cf the US Joint Chiefs), but by the VOY era the role appears to have been degraded to the commander of the Fleet Operations Center.

 

[Crewman6]

I never really bought into the premise that humans would sit on their collective asses for a century before going. Just not how we work as a species.

In an absolute best-case scenario, humans might land on Mars only a century or so after landing on the moon.

The shuttle program has been retired for ten years now.

So......

 

[NCC-73515]

Yeah, no. Actual dialogue from Paradise Lost:

and Jaresh-Inyo was not a Starfleet officer, and therefore not its CinC. MA says that he was considered to be the CinC of all Federation forces, and that SF CinC could be a separate position below Federation CinC, or that several SF CinCs exist for different sectors that are ultimately under the single Federation CinC's command.

...and why didn't he wear a SF uniform and badge if he was a SF officer?


I watched some ENT yesterday and found another reference I had forgotten, so I looked up the scripts to see if there were more:

REED: You come from a military family.
TALAS: Four generations.
REED: Three, on my father's side.
TALAS: He must be disappointed in you.
REED: What?
TALAS: Betraying your family tradition by serving on a ship of exploration.
REED: Actually, we haven't done much exploring for quite a while, but since you ask, he wasn't very pleased. The Royal Navy was his life.

DEGRA: These scans are remarkably detailed for a military vessel.
ARCHER: Enterprise was designed to be a ship of exploration.
DEGRA: If we're successful, it will be again.

ARCHER: You may want to find someone with more field experience, a MACO.
ERIKA: I'm not sure how I feel about a military officer on the Bridge.
ARCHER: If I were you, I'd talk to General Casey about assigning an entire squad.

And I found one reference in TOS:

GARTH: You, Captain, are second only to me as the finest military commander in the galaxy.
KIRK: That's very flattering. I am primarily an explorer now, Captain Garth.
GARTH: And so have I been. I have charted more new worlds than any man in history.

 

[BK613]

In an absolute best-case scenario, humans might land on Mars only a century or so after landing on the moon.

The shuttle program has been retired for ten years now.

So......

SpaceX will get there sooner than that...

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

...and why didn't he wear a SF uniform and badge if he was a SF officer?

For the same reason that the President of the United States doesn't wear a US Armed Forces uniform.

Because ultimate authority over the armed forces (the "commander in chief") in most Western nations is a civilian political appointee or elected official.

 

[NCC-73515]

For the same reason that the President of the United States doesn't wear a US Armed Forces uniform.

Because ultimate authority over the armed forces (the "commander in chief") in most Western nations is a civilian political appointee or elected official.

Is the civilian political appointee or elected official, like the US President, an officer of the armed forces?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

...and why didn't he wear a SF uniform and badge if he was a SF officer?


I watched some ENT yesterday and found another reference I had forgotten, so I looked up the scripts to see if there were more:

REED: You come from a military family.
TALAS: Four generations.
REED: Three, on my father's side.
TALAS: He must be disappointed in you.
REED: What?
TALAS: Betraying your family tradition by serving on a ship of exploration.
REED: Actually, we haven't done much exploring for quite a while, but since you ask, he wasn't very pleased. The Royal Navy was his life.

DEGRA: These scans are remarkably detailed for a military vessel.
ARCHER: Enterprise was designed to be a ship of exploration.
DEGRA: If we're successful, it will be again.

ARCHER: You may want to find someone with more field experience, a MACO.
ERIKA: I'm not sure how I feel about a military officer on the Bridge.
ARCHER: If I were you, I'd talk to General Casey about assigning an entire squad.

And I found one reference in TOS:

GARTH: You, Captain, are second only to me as the finest military commander in the galaxy.
KIRK: That's very flattering. I am primarily an explorer now, Captain Garth.
GARTH: And so have I been. I have charted more new worlds than any man in history.

Funny Daddy Reed’s attitude about his son on an exploration vessel considering that the Royal Navy has a history of exploration.

 

[Crewman6]

SpaceX will get there sooner than that...

Nah.

 

[Crewman6]

Funny Daddy Reed’s attitude about his son on an exploration vessel considering that the Royal Navy has a history of exploration.

Also considering that the Royal Navy would have all the relevance and function of Colonial Williamsburg cosplayers by the 22nd Century, it's a bit of a strange take for Reed's dad.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, this thread is evidence of rather silly lawyering around a fictional organization being a military.

 

[The Wormhole]

but hasn't there also been a Starfleet Chief of Staff somewhere?

Sort of. A Starfleet Chief of Staff was listed on directories seen at Starfleet Command in Voyager Non Sequitor and Enterprise Demons. The file on Archer aboard the USS Defiant in IAMD says he becomes Starfleet's Chief of Staff, an the dedication plaques for all the Starfleet ships for TNG to Voyager list "Admiral Gene Roddenberry" as Starfleet's Chief of Staff. The only dialogue reference to a Starfleet Chief of Staff is in DS9 To the Death when Weyoun tells Sisko the Dominion have the ability to make him supreme ruler of the Federation without having to answer to the Federation President or Starfleet Chief of Staff.

FADMs Harold Morrow and Lance Cartwright were "Commander, Starfleet"

Was Cartwright actually supposed to be Commander, Starfleet? I thought that was just a fanon myth based on the fact he was a last minute replacement for Admiral Morrow since the actor wasn't available for TVH?

I watched some ENT yesterday and found another reference I had forgotten, so I looked up the scripts to see if there were more:

Yeah, I went over this earlier in the thread. When you start pulling out quotes of characters saying Starfleet isn't military, others can pull out an equal number of quotes saying Starfleet is a military. That's why we should build this discussion around something other than onscreen dialogue, or else than it just becomes a back and forth of "Is a military"/"Isn't a military." Which is the reason why other threads have soured this topic into being a dreaded and forbidden subject around here.

This thread, fortunately has avoided the stigma that has plagued other threads on this topic and has managed to make it to thirteen pages of actual discussion rather than and endless circular argument the others degraded into much quicker. Shouldn't we be trying to keep the actual discussion going and proving that a fruitful thread on this subject is possible and that the Military topic isn't always destined to become a pissing match of Is/Isn't that pulling those quotes out can only accomplish? Because at the end of the day, onscreen dialogue about whether Starfleet is or isn't a military is very contradictory.

 

[NCC-73515]

Wouldn't checking what references each side can find, and how they address this question, be part of an actual discussion? A comparison of quotes related to this issue would actually be nice to have, I think.

 

[The Wormhole]

Wouldn't checking what references each side can find, and how they address this question, be part of an actual discussion?

Not really. It's just made every other thread on this subject very unpleasant. Let's try and keep this one pleasant.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Is the civilian political appointee or elected official, like the US President, an officer of the armed forces?

No, and neither is the President of the United States. They are civilian, not military officers, and despite this are indeed the ultimate Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. The same is also true of the Secretary of Defence and (perhaps slightly more particularly to the United States) is this also the with the SecNav, Sec Army, SecAF*.

*Their UK counterparts for instance are merged with their uniformed subordinate: The "SecNav" is also the CNO and CMC, the "Sec Army" is also the Army CoS (including Army Reserve) and the Sec AF is also the AF CoS.

 

[J.T.B.]

There may have been some variation on title over the years.

FADMs Bill Smillie, Kristen Clancy and Charles were specifically identified as the Commander in Chief during TOS-M, PIC & DSC respectively.

Sort of. A Starfleet Chief of Staff was listed on directories seen at Starfleet Command in Voyager Non Sequitor and Enterprise Demons. The file on Archer aboard the USS Defiant in IAMD says he becomes Starfleet's Chief of Staff, an the dedication plaques for all the Starfleet ships for TNG to Voyager list "Admiral Gene Roddenberry" as Starfleet's Chief of Staff. The only dialogue reference to a Starfleet Chief of Staff is in DS9 To the Death when Weyoun tells Sisko the Dominion have the ability to make him supreme ruler of the Federation without having to answer to the Federation President or Starfleet Chief of Staff.

Thanks. So it looks like we don't know for sure if a C-in-C is the top Starfleet honcho? As opposed to a fleet or regional commander or something like that?

 

[1001001]

Wouldn't checking what references each side can find, and how they address this question, be part of an actual discussion? A comparison of quotes related to this issue would actually be nice to have, I think.

But there's no point.

The franchise contradicts itself because it's had multiple writers over half a century. There's nothing deeper or more interesting than that.

The rest is just mental masturbation.

 

[oberth]

But there's no point.

The franchise contradicts itself because it's had multiple writers over half a century.

which is kinda a railroad compared to the bible

 

[NCC-73515]

But there's no point.

The franchise contradicts itself because it's had multiple writers over half a century. There's nothing deeper or more interesting than that.

The rest is just mental masturbation.

Discussions like "how would you change that episode", or "which character would you completely replace", or "what's your favorite xyz" are just as pointless, and yet we have a lot of those threads. It's what happens in between shows, when there's not much else to focus on.

No, and neither is the President of the United States. They are civilian, not military officers, and despite this are indeed the ultimate Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. The same is also true of the Secretary of Defence and (perhaps slightly more particularly to the United States) is this also the with the SecNav, Sec Army, SecAF*.

Exactly. (Also, see MA references upthread)

Not really. It's just made every other thread on this subject very unpleasant. Let's try and keep this one pleasant.

So no actual canonical information shall be part of this thread. What else should we base our discussion on instead?

 

[oberth]

So no actual canonical information shall be part of this thread. What else should we base our discussion on instead?

guns, big guns and even bigger guns ... and who got them?