Fair enough, keep at it then and let me know if it ever makes a difference.
Dune 2018 (19,20,21...)
- Thread starter wayoung
- Start date
This is always going to be a source of contention is how faithful an adaptation is. In my opinion, an adaptation from a book to a film will necessitate a lot of adjustments due to formats. For instance, the orc attack at the end of Fellowship of the Ring is actually from the beginning of The Two Towers book, and Aragorn doesn't really participate in the combat. But, in a film, moving that scene made sense.
But, that does not mean all changes make sense. It will be largely in the execution.
Personally, I do not think slavish adherence to the source material is ever a positive. I'm more interested in the larger themes and characters. For Dune, I am not certain that Kynes being a woman is a bad thing. It will depend greatly on execution.
Seems i hit a nerve.. hard.
Listen, you have the right to to your opinion and the right to criticize. However, this being a discussion board, you will have to live with the fact that people will disagree with your opinion and tear it apart within the rules of said board.
Prime example of your attitude here - it's not your little corner of interest and expertise so you invalidate it as a countargument to your claim when it's the exact same situation. Both the character in LotR and the gender of Kynes are absolutely not important to the main plot of either story. With Bombadil he's a mysterious character that doesn't reappear in the story after his scene and what he does has no consequence on the plot and the same applies to the gender of Liet Kynes and that's my ( and it seems many others here) opinion.
You can accept it or die on your hill, your choice. I'm not taking away your rights, especially not because i'm not a moderator and see no reason to call one even though this particular topic has heated up so much ( to my surprise), i simply disagree with your reasoning and no amount of huge essay writing will convince me, and especially not in which tone and how you communicate your opinion.
Concerning this topic i'm out.
Concerning the release date - if i indeed get to see it exactly 10 days after my birthday in September i'll not be able to hide my glee
New Bond commercial out today, which normally I wouldn't post here, but they are stressing the "Only in Theaters" line on it, showing there is some optimism among the studios that a theatrical only release will be viable this fall.
Interestingly, it also just says "October" instead of "October 8th". I hope it doesn't end up being pushed back into more direct competition with Dune.
Interestingly, it also just says "October" instead of "October 8th". I hope it doesn't end up being pushed back into more direct competition with Dune.
Harah is a very underused, and underappreciated character. If he wants to have more female presence in this movie, he should really let this character do what she does in the novel.
IIs this an actual licensed thing that's going to be published or something you're doing just for fun?
We're only getting the first half of the first book, and from what I can remember the majority of those characters don't appear there.
But why is it so important to the story that this change shouldn't happen? I'm not trying to be annoying, I'm just honestly curious why this is such a huge issue for you, but doesn't really bother many other people. Is there something important that comes up somewhere that wouldn't be able to happen with these changes? I have read the first book, but I don't remember it that well. I don't even remember Kynes playing that big of a role in it, or there being anything in it that absolutely required him being a man. As for Stilgar, before this conversation, I would have sworn he was Chani's father.
But that's not always as easy as it sounds, movies and books require very different things, and often the only way to get what the movies need into them is to make some pretty drastic changes to the source material. And then when adapting something older like Dune, you also have to take into account how attitudes have changed.
Is she really that significant to the bigger overall story? When you are adapting a thicker book like Dune you really need to focus on the bigger picture, and the stuff that absolutely needs to be there to tell the overall story. That's why you tend see so many side characters and side plot not making it into the adaptations, because if it's not important it's going to go.
Even if you aren't familiar with Lord of the Rings, it's still a fair comparison, since it's also a big popular genre series that was adapted into big budget movies. I actually think LOTR is one of the best examples of how to adapt something this complex, they made quite a few changes, but I still think they managed to stick true to the books with the important stuff, and were great adaptations overall. And I know recent events have done some damage to the franchise's reputation, but I'd say the same about the Harry Potter movies.
If you have HBOMax, it's one of the WB movies that is going up there the same day it's released in theaters.
I wouldn't read too much into that. Typically, TV spots don't start until a certain point in advance of the theatrical release, so if they have begun TV spots now, it's because they feel confident they will meet the October 8 release date.
Obviously I have no idea what you're talking about in the story, but the concept, yeah. For example, when The Handmaid's Tale was adapted, some scenes in the novel were moved around, or were from another character's point of view, or the dialogue wasn't even used until the second season (I've re-read that book enough times to know which lines in the TV show are from the book or movie). The characters of Moira and Janine disappear at some point in the novel and we never learn what happens to them. Emily kills herself toward the end of the novel, but this didn't happen in the TV series. All these characters are still around three seasons later.
Some characters' names were changed (in the novel we never know Offred's real name and it doesn't matter, since she's the same person to the audience, and a non-person to the ruling elite). This is an example of a difference that makes no difference. The source material doesn't even give this character a name other than 'Offred' which means she's the Handmaid of Fred and if she were assigned to a different Commander, she'd be "Of(whatever his first name was)". Her daughter's name is also changed, from novel to movie to TV show (Rebecca - Jill - Hannah). The names don't matter; she's still the same basic daughter who was kidnapped and taken to be "adopted" by one of the ruling Gilead elite and brainwashed into forgetting her mother (or at least hating her).
What THT did that does make a difference is in the matter of race and ethnicity. There are a lot of non-white characters in the show (including three who were white in the novel), as the showrunner realized that the viewers would absolutely not accept a show that did not have a diverse cast. It's been controversial at times, but it does fit better with the idea that there's a fertility crisis bad enough that women have to be forced to have babies. If few babies are being born, who cares what race or ethnicity the kid is? The Gilead elite in the novel cared. The elite in the TV show don't, or at least most don't.
I would love to see how they make this change make sense in a patriarchal society (both the Imperium and the Fremen are patriarchal societies). Any authority women have in the Imperium is usually because they're Bene Gesserit, royalty, someone very high up on the family ladder in a merchant House (and there's no male heir), or they're from one of the few female-dominated planets.
Women's authority in a Fremen sietch is usually reserved for the Sayyadinas. You will never find a Fremen Naib who is female, and the idea of a woman liaising back and forth between the Imperial court and the Fremen Naibs makes sense to our 21st-century sensibilities, but it does not make sense in the cultural milieu of 10,191 A.G. For those who insist that it's a great idea if Stilgar and this female Kynes are married and Chani is their daughter, they are really saying that it's a great idea if the chieftain of a tribe marries the politician/ambassador representing the imperial power that's been exploiting his people for centuries, if not millennia.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means, at least not in this context.
It isn't "slavish" to be respectful of the source material when adapting that source material to movie or TV form.
As an example of why it matters, respect for the source material is why Robert Silverberg has never (that I know of) allowed anyone to option his novel Lord Valentine's Castle. It would make one hell of an epic movie (or maybe two; there's certainly enough material there for two, and I can think of the perfect cliffhanger place in the plot).
But Majipoor is a very special and wonderful planet, full of interesting non-human characters, and Silverberg at first refused to allow anyone to option it because he couldn't figure out how 6-armed aliens could be made realistic when they do intricate actions like juggling or working on a fishing boat. His other reason is that he doesn't trust Hollywood to do it justice. He would want to be able to be there, to consult with, and to let them know when they're going off on a tangent that really doesn't work (he did extensive research with the Flying Karamazov Brothers to get the juggling part of his novel accurate, and would expect anyone trying to film this book to be equally respectful).
Ditto. Your condescension is not required. I used to run a Dune forum, and had to deal with the conflicts both on that forum and between that forum and other Dune forums. So I've served my time in the trenches, and do not appreciate being talked down to.
As I said, your example is meaningless to me because I literally have no idea who or what you're talking about, or if the individual you named is a character, actor, or whoever. If you were to use an example of something I'm familiar with, we could have a better chance of actually discussing this (I have no idea if you're familiar with my examples of The Handmaid's Tale or Silverberg's novel; if you are, great; if not, then you get where I'm coming from. Unfamiliar examples are not helpful.
Y'know what? I don't need your permission. And there are people who have indicated that they do appreciate my "essay writing" because I'm passionate about Dune, and my related experience has gone beyond just reading the novels and watching the movies and miniseries. Does it bother you more because it's long, or because I included a source for what I was talking about? I've got other posts in this thread where I've done that, and have been told that it's appreciated. The Encyclopedia is a very long book (not that it's meant to be read cover to cover; there are some articles I've never read, despite owning it for several decades), and it's not always intuitive as to where to find certain bits of information.
I'm sorry you're unwilling to read my arguments as the informative posts I'd intended. I put a lot of effort into them, and it's your loss if you choose to turn your nose up at them. On the first Dune forum I joined (and was later promoted to mod and then admin), the discussions were serious and if anyone made a claim, they were expected to be able to say which book they used as their source, so everyone could know they weren't floating a fan theory or outright making shit up (there was a lot of the latter going on, on the dunenovels.com forum; the nuDune fans there were allergic to facts).
Okay, whatever. If you're sincere in this, I won't address your posts anymore, but if you continue later, it's fair game.
This is the second time you have completely messed up your quote tags. I am the one who said this about Harah. .
If I am deciphering your post correctly, you're asking about my ongoing NaNoWriMo project. It's a very long fanfic project that's based on a computer game that came out almost 3 years ago (August 2018). Everything about it from the setting, characters, storyline, music, etc. just grabbed ahold of my imagination and won't let go. The devs are not likely to do a sequel game, even though they left themselves a few really good plot hooks.
Their loss is my fanfic gain. So to answer your question, no, this is not professional, it cannot be legally published, I don't expect to make so much as a penny from it and can't anyway (and wouldn't even try). It's a labor of love, and I started prepping it for NaNoWriMo in September 2018 and started writing it in November that year. I've been working on it ever since, as I keep getting ideas, someone will ask a question that sparks another idea, and suddenly there's a whole new part of the story to explore. I'm expanding this from the relatively small-scale setting of the game to actual worldbuilding.
To do justice to it, I'm researching a lot of things pertaining to the history and culture of various parts of the British Isles, in an AU sort of way. The game itself is very specific as to when it takes place (September, 1039 AD), which means it can't possibly fit in anywhere into real history. But as someone who spent years in the SCA, with its emphasis on real history and research, I prefer to get the details as close to right as possible when I write historical fiction. It's taken me into some interesting directions when I'm looking for information on various aspects of life in the early 11th century. The devs also tossed in a bit of a magical deus-ex-machina toward the end, and I had to make a decision whether to toss it and rewrite the ending, or keep it and figure out how to explain it - because up until then, the game had been a straightforward medieval adventure story.
So yeah, it is a challenge to stay true to the source material when adapting a story to a different form. But in my case with the game, I have not eliminated any characters, and when I realized that there were parts of the story that I really wish had gone another way because it was more interesting (though not family-friendly and saleable on a family-friendly gaming site), I just decided there would be two versions of the story - the one that stays as close as possible to the game, and the one that changes the plot in a huge way and extends the story to a wider setting and longer time period (with many new characters and places the game devs never thought of). The main characters remain the same, though, and when these are posted some day (on a fanfiction site), readers can decide for themselves which version they prefer, or if they like both or neither.
Someone I ran part of my first draft past mentioned that she was reminded a bit of Game of Thrones. I have never seen Game of Thrones, nor have I read the books it was based on. I have only a superficial knowledge of that series... and now, to avoid anyone thinking I plagiarized or copied from it, it's something I can never watch, as long as I'm involved in writing this story.
That's true of some things. For instance, I belong to Robert Silverberg's online discussion group (he doesn't do FB, so the group started on Yahoo and then migrated when Yahoo closed its groups). Silverberg is over 80 and still participating and telling us all kinds of interesting things about the stories and novels he's written over the years, and whether any of them have been optioned for TV or a movie (optioning doesn't mean it will definitely be made).
One of those optioned is his time travel novel, Up the Line. It's a great adventure story, about a group of guys who work as Time Couriers, guiding time tourists on one or two-week tours into the past of whatever region or civilization might interest them. The characters in this book are on "the Byzantium run" - taking tourists back in time to see the Byzantine Empire from its beginning to its end, with many stops along the way to experience some of the major historical events (as observers, of course, to prevent accidental time changes).
So what's the problem?
The problem is that this book was written back in the '60s, with some of the negative attitudes of the '60s. I first read it in the '80s. By the time I was running the Time Travel Novels group (essentially an online book club that specializes in time travel stories; it was also a victim of Yahoo's shutdown of its groups) about 10 years ago, society's attitudes had changed a great deal. Silverberg wrote some of these characters as sexist jerks, and the "n-word" is also in the novel. Obviously this would never be acceptable to any audience today, so these elements would have to be purged, or at least altered. Change the character's attitude, but keep the character.
One woman in the group was appalled by the book and had a very bad opinion of Silverberg. I tried to explain that he wrote the characters like that, but Silverberg himself is nothing like that (I've met and spoken with him at SF conventions).
As I said elsewhere, I should think that when she introduces herself to Paul by saying, "I am Chani, daughter of Liet", that would be a clue that she is the daughter of Liet, as in Liet is her father. Stilgar is not her father. That is undeniably canon, being a direct quote from the novel, and the line was used in the Lynch movie:
I also ran across a deleted scene from the Lynch movie that reinforces this:
The first video's dialogue is directly from the novel. The second... I don't think it is, but in the novel Chani shows up with a green cloth tied around her arm (green is the color of mourning among the Fremen).
I think respect can go too far and basically wrapped the story up so it cannot be adapted with any sort of meaningful way. It is basically asking that the book be adapted completely presented on the page, and not encouraging exploration of different ideas.
But, I'm also not one who believes source material requires respecting in any process. Adaptation means change, and I'llbe willing to at least look to it to see a different point of view. I always struggle with the idea of respect in an adaptation.
Obviously, mileage will vary.
Making changes isn't being 'disrespectful to the source material'; claims like that phrase are a fallacious strawman argument that are basically code for "I hate this because it wasn't done how I thought it should be"
You haven't understood a word I've said, obviously.
There are changes that don't matter, and changes that do.
If Denis Whatsisname wants to do all six books, he has to be very careful how he mucks around with Stilgar and Chani, or he'll write himself into a corner when it comes to the events of Messiah and Children.
I'm reminded of a soap I used to watch, called One Life to Live. It got absolutely insane, with the retconning people's parentage and SORASing the younger actors. It got to the point where some characters were each other's uncles and nephews, or each other's aunts and nieces, or simultaneously cousins and step-parent, and I have to congratulate them on how many decades it took before brother-sister incest finally happened.
On the contrary, I understand exactly what you've said, and I reject it as a fallacious point of view.
Noelle Stevenson had it right when she said "Anyway, stories change in the telling, and that's pretty cool".
Agreed, otherwise why tell the story in a new format at all. Just let the books stand and go tell something else.
Yeah, if you've read Jurassic Park, the book and movie are very different. Characters missing, some characters prominence changed, entire plot lines removed, other plotlines majorly altered. But the book is an excellent book, and the movie is an excellent and mostly beloved movie, despite their differences. I am hopeful Dune will be the same.
Jurassic Park and Starship Troopers are two of my biggest experiences with the adaptation process of going "WTF??" But, I was able to recognize that was OK, that changes did not mean disrespect, a term that I started to shudder at when it came to adaptations vs. source material.
Sorry, the original work got its respect from when it was first published. It doesn't need double respect when some engages with the work and decides to adapt it to a new format. The original will still stand on its own.
Nope. You have understood nothing of what I said.
These characters don't exist in a vacuum. Their actions are shaped by, and will in turn shape, the events of the wider Imperium. There's not only a whole planet beyond Sietch Tabr, but also an antsy Emperor on his throne on Kaitain, and a devious Baron plotting away on Giedi Prime.
In the meantime, the Bene Gesserit are scrambling on Wallach IX, trying to figure out how to salvage the mess Jessica made of their breeding program (which is why they send Margot, Lady Fenring to seduce Feyd-Rautha and conceive a child; he was supposed to have been the father of the Kwisatz Haderach, and Jessica's actions effectively cut Feyd's genes from the program).
Change for the sake of change and "wouldn't it be cool if we did this so I can hire that actress I like" is ridiculous, as it appears this director hasn't even thought about the larger picture that these characters are part of.
There's telling a story and butchering a story.
I have not read Jurassic Park, nor have I seen the movies.
Still waiting for the butchering I guess...
I'm surprised you all are still bothering to argue. The ignore list feature is awesome. It was pretty obvious there was no good faith discussion days ago when the reply was something like "You're ok with a Father being a woman?!?!" and subsequent claims that anyone with a different opinion has never read the book and isn't a true fan.
It's an odd movie.
I get the choice of the voice overs to help explain the dense plot and characters but they're rightly criticized for slowing it down. There's so much exposition needed that getting it on screen without boring everyone is a huge concern.
This adaptation is even longer than the miniseries (assuming part 2, if it gets made, is about the same length as part 1) so hopefully the added time let Villeneuve find a better way to explain everything.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with turning making Kynes a woman. The book has very few female characters that aren't witches and the role is so small it's not going to affect the plot in any way except maybe give Zendaya some more to work with.
