I can't imagine Feyd being introduced in the 2nd movie only. I don't know how that would work. But I also can't see Timothy Chalamet defeating and killing Bautista in single combat so
Because it would be weird if Chani's mother married a woman of Sietch Tabr and became Stilgar's blood-brother?
Chani's mother died before her father did, and she looked to Stilgar (her uncle) for guidance in the ways of the desert and Reverend Mother Ramallo for guidance in the ways of Fremen women.Liet is important in Dune, referenced and respected in Dune Messiah, and I think he's mentioned in Children of Dune. After that he disappears from the story (unless a stray memory surfaces in Leto II's mind in God Emperor due to Other Memory, since Leto II wasn't yet born while Kynes was alive). I don't remember if Odrade references him in Other Memory in the last two books (it would be shaky at best, since she'd be reaching all the way back to Paul, and the Bene Gesserit of 4500 years later aren't too fond of Paul and Jessica, since they were responsible for Leto II's existence, aka "The Tyrant".
The axolotl tanks aren't anywhere near as graphic in FH's books as they are in KJA/BH's crap.
Yeah, I'm trying to come up with how many main characters in Heretics and Chapterhouse who are male, and... three? Duncan, Teg, and one of the Tleilaxu Masters, if memory serves. There's another character, Rebecca's father, but he just complains and argues for awhile and makes it clear how much he disapproves of the Bene Gesserit, until Rebecca tells him he can't order her around anymore.
Oh please yourself. Yes, there actually is.
Being Stilgar's brother, Kynes has to be a man. Stilgar explicitly refers to Kynes as "my brother."
He's entitled to his opinion.
Who is "Hannah"? If you're going to argue with me, please get the names right. The character's name is Harah. And since there appear to be quite a number of people here who turn their noses up at the rest of the series, here's the scoop: Harah eventually marries Stilgar, after she is no longer needed to look after Alia. Paul didn't want her at all, but he had to take her to satisfy Fremen custom. It's not that she's a prize. It's that she becomes Paul's responsibility and he has a duty to make sure she and her sons are provided for. He frees her, and she eventually opts to marry Stilgar (thus becoming his third wife).
Pointless gender-swapping in nuBSG is one of the reasons I stopped watching after the first episode. And there are enough female characters in Dune already. They don't need to manufacture one out of a male character.
KJA/BH would love that. Please let there be not one syllable about Norma Fucking Cenva in this.
From the article: " Dune director Denis Villenueve is still attached to direct the pilot episode, and he and Spaihts are among the producers, along with Brian Herbert, Byron Merritt, Kim Herbert, and Kevin J. Anderson."
The thing about gender is that the Bene Gesserit breeders (which include Jessica and Margot, and Jessica's mother - and please do not tell me Mohiam was her mother; that was an invention of KJA/BH) are supposed to be able to choose to conceive either a male child or a female child, by adjusting the biochemistry within their own bodies. This is how Jessica decided to give Leto a son and heir, rather than the daughter she was ordered to bear, for the sake of the breeding program.
If they're doing all six novels, Duncan Idaho is not the "star" of God Emperor, but he would share the limelight with however they depict Leto II. I find it very odd that a man of this actor's age could plausibly play Duncan in Heretics, because he's only about 15 or 16 years old in that book. He ages somewhat by the end of Chapterhouse (we're not told specifically how much time Duncan spends in the no-ship with Murbella before he and Sheanna take the ship and go on the run (so to speak).
There's a fundamental difference between Paul and Alia, and that is that Paul was born normally, grew from a normal baby, through all the stages that humans go through, from infancy, toddler, child, teenager, and finally adult. As his physical aspect grew and changed with his age, so did his mental aspect (though of course no child with the Bene Gesserit training Paul had from childhood could be like most children, but he did have a childhood).
Oh, FFS.
Source: The Dune Encyclopedia, p. 47Dune Encyclopedia said:
I'd appreciate getting to read it, if that's okay.
Chani's presence in the series is expanded on in Dune Messiah, and she makes a "spiritual" appearance in Children of Dune as the person in Ghanima's Other Memory who will act as the gatekeeper to protect her daughter from becoming overwhelmed and dominated by her ancestral memories. Ghanima is 9 years old when this happens, and so she is able to avoid Abomination, as Alia was not.
The Lynch movie did a decent job with Hawat, showing him as Paul's teacher, Leto's advisor, and there's a scene where he is commanding the Atreides troops when they're searching for Harkonnen traps, spies, and other nasty surprises left behind.
Margot, Lady Fenring should at least be mentioned. Jessica finds a coded message from her in the conservatory in the residence in Arrakeen (the Fenrings lived there before the Atreides moved in). Later in the novel, there's a scene in which we find out that Margot has received orders from the Bene Gesserit to seduce Feyd-Rautha and conceive a child, to preserve his genes for the Bene Gesserit's ongoing breeding program (come hell or high water, they are determined to produce the kind of Kwisatz Haderach they want, and Feyd was actually supposed to be the father of the Kwisatz Haderach by mating with Alia).
Oh, FFS.Yeah it's confirmed Feyd isn't in this movie at all. Prevailing fan theory is that they merged him with Rabban to give Bautista a meatier role (it's been denied but the script isn't even done, so....).
I can't imagine Feyd being introduced in the 2nd movie only. I don't know how that would work. But I also can't see Timothy Chalamet defeating and killing Bautista in single combat so
Yep. Both of the Baron's nephews have a purpose in the story. There's no way to combine them into one character and have it make any sense.
Because it would be weird if Chani's mother married a woman of Sietch Tabr and became Stilgar's blood-brother?Is there a specific reason they can't be a woman married to a man? Is there some specific element of the character that makes it so they have to be a man, or that the person they're married to has to be a woman?From what others have said it sounds like they're making him her father here, is there a specific reason he has to be her uncle?
Islamic terrorism, and "jihads" are still a pretty big issue right now, so I can understand changing the terminology, especially since crusade means basically the same thing, but isn't quite as much of a issue for a lot of people.
So? It can't be his sister?
You keep saying this, but you still haven't explained why he has to be her uncle and can't be her father or why Kynes can't be her mother. And to be clear, I'm looking for more than just that that was how it was in the books. This isn't the books, so things are going to be changed, and unless there's some kind of big plot points that are reliant on Stilgar being her uncle and not her father, and Kynes being a man, something where changing them will have a massive impact on the story, I don't understand why changing them is such a huge issue.
How old is he in Dune?
I would assume if they get to the point you're talking about they'll just recast with a younger actor. Movies and TV are constantly casting younger people to play teenage versions of adults for stuff like flashbacks or clones or whatever, and I don't see any reason couldn't do that here.
There's also CGI deaging, but I'm not sure how convincingly they can turn an adult into a teenager, most of what we've seen has just been turning an older adult into a younger adult.
It's a nice bit of backstory, but it doesn't really have anything to do with what's happening in the book/movie, and I don't see where changing it really makes that much of a difference.
And that can't still be the case if she's his "sister"?
But that's all backstory and worldbuilding that doesn't really impact the story being told in Dune, and I don't see any reason it can't be changed.
Yup. The gender levelling isn't going to go away so stick to original versions or look the other way.Impressive. A block of text like that and it all boils down to :
"Waaahhhhhh
Because it would be weird if Chani's mother married a woman of Sietch Tabr and became Stilgar's blood-brother?
Liet is important in Dune, referenced and respected in Dune Messiah, and I think he's mentioned in Children of Dune. After that he disappears from the story (unless a stray memory surfaces in Leto II's mind in God Emperor due to Other Memory, since Leto II wasn't yet born while Kynes was alive). I don't remember if Odrade references him in Other Memory in the last two books (it would be shaky at best, since she'd be reaching all the way back to Paul, and the Bene Gesserit of 4500 years later aren't too fond of Paul and Jessica, since they were responsible for Leto II's existence, aka "The Tyrant".
The axolotl tanks aren't anywhere near as graphic in FH's books as they are in KJA/BH's crap.
It's been nearly 20 years since 9/11. Are we supposed to excise the word "jihad" completely, especially in major literary works?
The Jews don't show up until Heretics, so there's not much danger of giving or receiving offense in this movie, or in any movies based on the first four books.
The Face Dancers (Tleilaxu) have already been part of visual interpretations of these books. The miniseries had Scytale as a character, as he's one of the main characters in Dune Messiah.
Sorry, I'm blanking on the "politically incorrect" content. Yes, to our modern RL sensibilities, some of the attitudes shown in Dune are antiquated and politically incorrect (ie. Duncan is not pleased to discover that the Fish Speakers in God Emperor engage in same-sex relations, and considers it immoral). But I look at it as Duncan being a product of the society and time he was born into and lived in, which was 3000 years previously. The Fremen are also against incest; anyone caught in that situation is put through the deathstill and their water is poured out on the sand instead of added to the tribe's water. I would be very surprised if anyone thought the Fremen view of incest was politically incorrect (this is brought up in Children of Dune, when the Bene Gesserit suggest that Leto and Ghanima mate and produce a child so the precious Atreides genes will be preserved for their breeding program).
Actually, what mainstream audiences absolutely would not accept is the very young age of some of the characters and how it would look like children being forced into adult wars and sexual situations (it's hard sometimes to divorce reality from the story and remember that the 9-year-old twins in Children of Dune were actually born with adult consciousnesses; this is why they were aged several years in the miniseries so young adults could play those roles).
Yeah, I'm trying to come up with how many main characters in Heretics and Chapterhouse who are male, and... three? Duncan, Teg, and one of the Tleilaxu Masters, if memory serves. There's another character, Rebecca's father, but he just complains and argues for awhile and makes it clear how much he disapproves of the Bene Gesserit, until Rebecca tells him he can't order her around anymore.
Oh please yourself. Yes, there actually is.
Being Stilgar's brother, Kynes has to be a man. Stilgar explicitly refers to Kynes as "my brother."
He's entitled to his opinion.
Who is "Hannah"? If you're going to argue with me, please get the names right. The character's name is Harah. And since there appear to be quite a number of people here who turn their noses up at the rest of the series, here's the scoop: Harah eventually marries Stilgar, after she is no longer needed to look after Alia. Paul didn't want her at all, but he had to take her to satisfy Fremen custom. It's not that she's a prize. It's that she becomes Paul's responsibility and he has a duty to make sure she and her sons are provided for. He frees her, and she eventually opts to marry Stilgar (thus becoming his third wife).
If you'd actually read Dune Messiah, you'd know that Irulan is not a "trophy wife" and yes, she has lines in addition to the chapter epigrams. But of course people who limit themselves to the first book wouldn't know that.
Pointless gender-swapping in nuBSG is one of the reasons I stopped watching after the first episode. And there are enough female characters in Dune already. They don't need to manufacture one out of a male character.
KJA/BH would love that. Please let there be not one syllable about Norma Fucking Cenva in this.
From the article: " Dune director Denis Villenueve is still attached to direct the pilot episode, and he and Spaihts are among the producers, along with Brian Herbert, Byron Merritt, Kim Herbert, and Kevin J. Anderson."
Well, I guess that's that. Sorceresses of Rossak, Norma Fucking Cenva, and a total mess. KJA/BH do NOT understand Dune, they don't understand or care about respecting the source material, and their depiction of the Bene Gesserit was... "ridiculous" is about the most polite term I can muster.
Byron Merritt was a member of Arrakeen, back when he was running dunenovels.com (the official forum for the nuDune books). He kept spouting off about how awful the people from Arrakeen were, so I invited him to join and see for himself how much we all respected his grandfather's writing and his legacy.
Holy crap, that didn't turn out well...
Stilgar is Chani's uncle.
The thing about gender is that the Bene Gesserit breeders (which include Jessica and Margot, and Jessica's mother - and please do not tell me Mohiam was her mother; that was an invention of KJA/BH) are supposed to be able to choose to conceive either a male child or a female child, by adjusting the biochemistry within their own bodies. This is how Jessica decided to give Leto a son and heir, rather than the daughter she was ordered to bear, for the sake of the breeding program.
This has nothing to do with Kynes, who had no connection I'm aware of to the Bene Gesserit, save whatever contact he might have had with Reverend Mother Ramallo (the Fremen Sayyadina) during his time in Sietch Tabr, or Jessica herself (I'm curious as to whether this movie will include the banquet scene; the Lynch movie didn't, but the miniseries did).
If they're doing all six novels, Duncan Idaho is not the "star" of God Emperor, but he would share the limelight with however they depict Leto II. I find it very odd that a man of this actor's age could plausibly play Duncan in Heretics, because he's only about 15 or 16 years old in that book. He ages somewhat by the end of Chapterhouse (we're not told specifically how much time Duncan spends in the no-ship with Murbella before he and Sheanna take the ship and go on the run (so to speak).
There's a fundamental difference between Paul and Alia, and that is that Paul was born normally, grew from a normal baby, through all the stages that humans go through, from infancy, toddler, child, teenager, and finally adult. As his physical aspect grew and changed with his age, so did his mental aspect (though of course no child with the Bene Gesserit training Paul had from childhood could be like most children, but he did have a childhood).
Alia never had a childhood, or at least not much of one. She was Pre-Born, what the Bene Gesserit call Abomination, becoming a Reverend Mother while still in utero. In the miniseries, adult Alia tries to describe to the twins the horror she felt at going through this experience, but since they had each other, plus the cooperation of some of their Other Memory personas to keep them from being overwhelmed by the thousands of other personas that are part of their consciousness, they can't relate to Alia's situation. Alia had nobody to help her through that (something Jessica should have done, but since she didn't go through the Spice Agony in the normal way either, it was like the blind leading the blind and the one being led getting lost). So when Alia receives an offer of protection from the Baron, she grabs onto it as a lifeline.
But of course this happens in Dune Messiah, after Alia is older (she's 16 when she has to take the regency for Paul's children). Again, Jessica is of no help whatsoever, having fled back to Caladan and trying to get back in the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood's good graces.
By the time Alia becomes obsessed with trying to read the future, she's desperate to hold on not only to power, but her own sanity. She's got the Baron in her head, gradually working his way to controlling her, and she doesn't realize it until it's nearly too late (toward the end of Children of Dune).
Oh, FFS.
NO. Stilgar already had two wives, and at some point after Paul released her, he and Harah married (Paul was responsible for her for a year after he killed Jamis, but after that he could free her and she could marry someone else if she chose).
I've just done a re-read of Stilgar's biography in the Dune Encyclopedia; it says Stilgar had a bond of blood-brotherhood with Liet-Kynes, so he was essentially Chani's uncle, and took her into his household after her mother died (Liet-Kynes was often away on the Emperor's business, or traveling around to various sietches and places on Arrakis where the Fremen were attempting to grow plants or cache water, so he was only a part-time father figure at best).
I re-read part of the novel a couple of nights ago (I just finished a couple of very long posts on another forum, answering peoples' questions about the novels, miniseries, and the Lynch movie), and Stilgar refers to Kynes as "my brother."
I took that to mean that Stilgar considered Kynes his social equal and family in terms of kinship.
According to the Dune Encyclopedia, Liet-Kynes could have introduced Chani to life in the Imperium; she had the right to know that side of her lineage, but he chose to let her remain entirely Fremen. The Encyclopedia goes on to say:
Source: The Dune Encyclopedia, p. 47
The Imperium is essentially a space-going feudal society. Women did not have the same opportunities for authority and leadership as men, on many planets and in the Imperial court. The exceptions are the Bene Gesserit and whatever planets may be female-dominated (ie. Rossak). And in spite of the respect and reverence accorded to the sietch's Sayyadina, it was still the Naibs who made the decisions.
These are the reasons I find it ridiculous and untrue to the source material to have Kynes as a woman. Based on what is stated in the novel and in the Encyclopedia, it's just not something that would happen in-universe.
I'd appreciate getting to read it, if that's okay.
Chani's presence in the series is expanded on in Dune Messiah, and she makes a "spiritual" appearance in Children of Dune as the person in Ghanima's Other Memory who will act as the gatekeeper to protect her daughter from becoming overwhelmed and dominated by her ancestral memories. Ghanima is 9 years old when this happens, and so she is able to avoid Abomination, as Alia was not.
The Lynch movie did a decent job with Hawat, showing him as Paul's teacher, Leto's advisor, and there's a scene where he is commanding the Atreides troops when they're searching for Harkonnen traps, spies, and other nasty surprises left behind.
Margot, Lady Fenring should at least be mentioned. Jessica finds a coded message from her in the conservatory in the residence in Arrakeen (the Fenrings lived there before the Atreides moved in). Later in the novel, there's a scene in which we find out that Margot has received orders from the Bene Gesserit to seduce Feyd-Rautha and conceive a child, to preserve his genes for the Bene Gesserit's ongoing breeding program (come hell or high water, they are determined to produce the kind of Kwisatz Haderach they want, and Feyd was actually supposed to be the father of the Kwisatz Haderach by mating with Alia).
Oh, FFS.
Yep. Both of the Baron's nephews have a purpose in the story. There's no way to combine them into one character and have it make any sense.
Impressive. A block of text like that and it all boils down to :
"
Impressive. A block of text like that and it all boils down to :
"
What "levelling"?
I tried to listen to some. I had to shut it off.
Hunters/Sandworms (excuse me, waterworms) might be the only formally published ending anyone got (and the ending is so beyond ridiculous that it makes me wonder why I wasted any part of my finite lifespan reading it), but it's vastly inferior to a Dune 7 fanfic I ran across on a GeoCities site a long time ago. I really should have saved it, but at the time I had no idea that GeoCities was going to be deleted.
Yes, though it would be more accurate to say that I am a woman who has read SF since 1975 and began reading Dune in the '80s, not long before God Emperor of Dune came out in paperback.
Well this movie isn't going to be for you, obviously. Avoid it and the threads like this. Enjoy Herberts world on paper, it'll never let you down
So I guess you didn't bother reading anything else, or you didn't understand it.
You've been around long enough to know on this and any other Dune forum we've both been members of that I'm a woman, so your accusations of sexism are nothing but bullshit. I'd say the same if a female character was gender-swapped to male.
Actually, if you want to criticize a show for its lack of female characters, look no further than Bonanza. Three grown sons of marriageable age in a time when most men with a stable home and income did get married, all living with their father, and every female guest character who might have married them either dies, gets killed, leaves town, runs off with another man, goes back east, or various other reasons, and the only time one of the brothers did marry, his wife died anyway.
Not a good setting for women, evidently, strong-minded or not.
I've been writing a novel (actually it turned into a series) over the past 3 years, based on one of my favorite computer games. That one suffers from a lack of female characters, since the only one still alive happens to be the villain. I took a look at the main characters' household and noted that there were no female relatives mentioned, not even a cook or housekeeper... so I invented some. But at least I didn't genderswap any of the other characters to do it, and I'm not having any of the women step outside the lines of what is considered acceptable behavior of women for that time period.
For female characters, the Dune series has (in no particular order):
*Jessica
*Mohiam
*Alia
*Harah (her role is much more important than people give her credit for)
*Irulan
Wensicia
Several of Alia's female guards
Ghanima
Lichna
Sabiha
Naila
Siona
Hwi Noree
Sister Chenoeh
*Shadout Mapes
*Margot, Lady Fenring
*Reverend Mother Ramallo
Sheeana
Lucilla
Rebecca
Darwi Odrade
Taraza
Murbella
Streggi
Bellonda
the leader of the Honored Matres
And several others whose names I'm blanking on.
There are 8 of these characters who are in the Dune novel. Why isn't 8 good enough?
Was there some point in just posting quoted material, or did some tags go astray?
What "levelling"?
It's politically-correct change for the sake of politically-correct change. It goes against the canon material in a pointless way and does nothing to improve the story.
And for anyone (there have been some here) who have decided my objection is due to the actress' skin color... re-read what I said at the time. I would object no matter what the physical appearance. It's the gender-swap I object to. All else is irrelevant.
I tried to listen to some. I had to shut it off.
Hunters/Sandworms (excuse me, waterworms) might be the only formally published ending anyone got (and the ending is so beyond ridiculous that it makes me wonder why I wasted any part of my finite lifespan reading it), but it's vastly inferior to a Dune 7 fanfic I ran across on a GeoCities site a long time ago. I really should have saved it, but at the time I had no idea that GeoCities was going to be deleted.
Yes, though it would be more accurate to say that I am a woman who has read SF since 1975 and began reading Dune in the '80s, not long before God Emperor of Dune came out in paperback.
It was an interesting experience, since I was sick at the time and had a fever. So of course I wanted something to read and picked Dune off my bookshelf (I'd already had those books for so many years and hadn't bothered to read them; I'd actually thought of selling them, but now I'm so glad I didn't). It's an experience reading about a very dry planet when you're feeling like crap and thirsty like that in RL... And on my first day out of the house, I went back to my usual book-hunt and found God Emperor.
This was a lucky find, as I'd just finished Children of Dune and wished there were more books... and so I promptly bought it, started reading it, and was hopelessly confused less than 100 pages in. That book is a tough slog, for the first time and the 10th time. I understand it more now than I did before, but I am never going to like Leto II or feel sorry for him.
Look, I even gave nuTrek a try, all three of them, even though I could already tell from the preliminary interviews, photos, and trailers that I was unlikely to like it. That batch of movies, too, indulged in change for the sake of change, and not because it actually made any sense or added to the story.Well this movie isn't going to be for you, obviously. Avoid it and the threads like this. Enjoy Herberts world on paper, it'll never let you down
Since you haven't read it, why should I grant you the validity of any sneering, dismissive opinions you have of it?
Y'know what? I don't give one fraction of a fuck about what anyone did in LotR, because I never saw it. I never read any of the books, never saw the movies, have not a clue how many there are, and I really don't care. I have no idea who Tom Bambadil is, or why this matters (not saying it doesn't; obviously it must matter to some fans, or you wouldn't have brought it up as an example you think I should know about). Obviously fandom will have its "sides" it takes on various issues.
I am not yours to order around. As I said back in '09 when a bunch of people on this forum descended with a hell of a lot of dogpiling and verbal abuse because I didn't like their precious movie, I do have the right to my own views and to express them. My opinions are not required to match yours, and in fact I am exasperated with the production team for this gender-swapping casting decision. Do not make the mistake of assuming I'm angry with you and the rest here because they made that decision.
