The Galileo Seven (no relation to Blake's)

[MAGolding]

If anything, I'd court martial Spock for this one. He prevented his men from defending themselves when they were under lethal attack.

That reminds me of the Arthur C. Clarke story "A Meeting With Medusa". As I remember, the protagonist descends into the tmosphere of Jupiter and discovers gigantic lifeforms floating in the atmosphere.

At one point he worries about what could he do if one of the lifeforms attacks him. And he remembers watching a televisin talk show where an astronaut and a space lawyer talked about the regulations and laws pertaining to contact with alien life, even if that life is not intelligent.

The lawyer explained that it ws illegal for an astronaut to do anthing which might disturb or harm even the most primitive alien lifeforms. And the shocked astronaut said someing like "So that means that if a alien lifeform tries to eat me I have to let it?" And the lawyer said "That's right."

SPOCK: (pulling the bloody spear from Latimer's body and examining it) Folsom Point.
BOMA: Sir?
SPOCK: There's a remarkable resemblance to the Folsom Point discovered in 1925, old world calendar, New Mexico, North America. A bit more crude about the shaft, I believe. Not very efficient.

Humans evolved from other hominins in Africa several million years ago. Although some scientists equate humans with all members of the genus Homo, in common usage it generally refers to Homo sapiens, the only extant member. H. sapiens emerged around 300,000 years ago, evolving from Homo erectus and migrating out of Africa,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

Folsom points are found widely across North America and are dated to the period between 9500 BCE and 8000 BCE. The discovery of these artifacts in the early 20th century raised questions about when the first humans arrived in North America. The prevailing idea of a time depth of about 3,000 years was clearly mistaken.

So on Earth Folsom Points were made by fully anatomically modern humans only 11,500 to 10,00 years ago. They were made by beings who were who were clearly people with rights, not by mere animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folsom_point

In "Bread and Circuses":

KIRK: Septimus, wherever we may be from, you must believe that it is one of our most important laws that none of us interfere with the affairs of others. If Captain Merik is Merikus, then he has violated that law, and he must be taken away and punished. Will you help us get to the truth of all this?

"The Omega Glory":

Captain's log, supplemental. The Enterprise has left the Exeter and moved into close planet orbit. Although it appears the infection may strand us here the rest of our lives, I face an even more difficult problem. A growing belief that Captain Tracey has been interfering with the evolution of life on this planet. It seems impossible. A star captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive.

So wuldn't the Galileo 7 crew be violating the Prime Directive if they killed a bunch of the natives?

And I think tha the writers forgot or conveniently ignored several possibles. If the galileo 7 used something like rocket power to land, man of the locas might be been incinerated, and teh ohers might be fleeing the ame way they would flee from a volcanic r eruption. And if they used anything like rocket to lift off a weight as large as the Galileo 7, it would have roasted all life winthin about amile, including the hostiles trying to hold the hsip down.

So maybe the Galileo used anti gravity fueled by theengery drained from the phsers to take off. And hte amount of energy used to take off using antigravity might not have been in the same for a a s rocket blasting off, and might not have killed the natives, but would have involved using energy as rapidly as a airplane taking off or a rocket blastng off.

Even if there were two or three aliens with the weight of gigantopithecus trying to hold down the shuttle, their combined weight wuldn't be able to hold down the Galileo any more than it would be enough to hold down an airliner taking off or a Saturn V blasting off.

What if they used phasers on heat setting to heat up rocks and the ground as in "The Enemy Within" and "Spock's Brain"? They culd mesure out a circle a few hundred feet wide around the Galileo, and heat up all the rocks and dirt in that ringe, making the rng of hot ground too wide for the natives to jump, and two hot to walk over.

Someone could object that would use up too much energy from the phasers and they would never get off the planet. But nobody should make such an objecton until they calculate how much energy it would take to heat up the rocks as suggested and how much energy it would take to lift the Galileo into orbit..

And the thought occured to me that they could have shot phasers up in the air in Morse code SOS pattern, They could choose a phaser setting that interacted with the palent's atmosphere to make the brightest light sow, to attract the attentin of the Enterprise and maybe scare away the natives.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

So wuldn't the Galileo 7 crw be vilating the Prime Directive if they killed abunch of the natives?.

If a law deprives you of the most basic right of self defense, then that would be Topic A. The law itself needs to be put on trial. The bit in "Bread and Circuses" that goes "I believe you all swore you'd die before you'd violate that Directive" is evidence that the problem is indeed that bad.

 

[johnnybear]

I think the Prime Directive only counts on a planet with a growing, thriving population of intelligent beings, not a world of savage anthropoid killers! The same reasoning as in when a planet begins to develop a faster than light space travel device or ship is when the Federation begins to start First Contact procedures! The Beta Niobe situation on Sarpeidon is another of those odd stories where Kirk and crew beam down to a world unaware of other races and yet the disappearance of the population is of great interest to the team. I wonder if the people had of not discovered time travel how would Kirk explain his Federation to them and begin saving those who wanted to be saved?
JB

 

[Commishsleer]

I think the Prime Directive only counts on a planet with a growing, thriving population of intelligent beings, not a world of savage anthropoid killers! The same reasoning as in when a planet begins to develop a faster than light space travel device or ship is when the Federation begins to start First Contact procedures! The Beta Niobe situation on Sarpeidon is another of those odd stories where Kirk and crew beam down to a world unaware of other races and yet the disappearance of the population is of great interest to the team. I wonder if the people had of not discovered time travel how would Kirk explain his Federation to them and begin saving those who wanted to be saved?
JB

Isn't that the same excuse that people used to use when colonising the America's, Australia, Africa etc?

If a law deprives you of the most basic right of self defense, then that would be Topic A. The law itself needs to be put on trial. The bit in "Bread and Circuses" that goes "I believe you all swore you'd die before you'd violate that Directive" is evidence that the problem is indeed that bad.

Well the Prime Directive doesn't forbid killing the natives. Just not killing them in a technically superior way.
Didn't Kirk use a machine gun in Bread and Circuses?
So I think they weren't forbidden by the Prime Directive but you know if an alien crash landed on Earth and killed off a bunch of us with a laser beam to teach us a lesson and give us a bloody nose, how would we feel?
Saying that the natives were very primitive and probably never thought more than when they were getting their next meal so does the Prime Directive even apply to them? Even though they were sentient and using tools, would the appearance of technology affect them in the slightest. Maybe for the Prime Directive to apply the natives might have to have a written language as a minimum. I mean is there a lower level when it cuts in? The higher level is when it cuts out is when they reach Warp level (or the Federation wants something from them).

 

[johnnybear]

Well I see your point but they were tribal peoples rather than eight foot tall anthropoidal savages of Taurus II who were intent on murdering the crew of the Galileo!
JB

 

[Scott Kellogg]

When you're examining the moral dilemma here, it might be useful to take a look at the source material that "Galileo 7" was based on. In "Five Came Back" they weren't giant stone age apes, they were a savage stone age Amazon tribe. The Elderly Anthropologist in the movie basically makes it clear if they were caught, it means death by slow torture. Burned alive. the 'Cut off his feet and make him dance while the tribe laughs' sort of thing.

One thing that the couldn't do on Star Trek was the heroic climax of the film:
One man, who'd been condemned to death for murder, steals the one gun they have.
He demands that he be left behind, and that the elderly couple stay with him as the three of them had agreed.
The others have vital lives to go back to. The volunteers' lives are nearly ended and they will commit suicide rather than face the torture.

It's a horrible, brave ending when the murderer sees that he has only two bullets left and shoots the elderly couple as they embrace. Leaving no merciful bullet for himself as the savages close in.

 

[IMC Headquarters]

Boma was heard to mutter, "There's something familiar about all this."

I just love the care James Doohan gives to Scotty's tinkering. I don't know how the hell draining phasers will excite ion plasma, or whatever, but I do know Scotty will get it working!

And when is head is examining the compartment, I can't help imagining him say, "Aye, the fuel pump is shot alright. It'll cost ye twelve-hundred for starters..."

 

[MAGolding]

I think the Prime Directive only counts on a planet with a growing, thriving population of intelligent beings, not a world of savage anthropoid killers! The same reasoning as in when a planet begins to develop a faster than light space travel device or ship is when the Federation begins to start First Contact procedures! The Beta Niobe situation on Sarpeidon is another of those odd stories where Kirk and crew beam down to a world unaware of other races and yet the disappearance of the population is of great interest to the team. I wonder if the people had of not discovered time travel how would Kirk explain his Federation to them and begin saving those who wanted to be saved?
JB

Do you know how long prehuman primates were making stone tools on Earth before their descendants, fully human menbers of the species Homo sapiens, developed stone tools as advanced as Folsom points LIterally a few million years. The Folsom piont that the Taurus II spearheads reasembled was literally the result of millions of years of slow development.

So the Taurus II natives might look like gigantopithecus, but they clearly had the mental abilities of Homo sapiens. So it seems that they had veen evolving their tools, and their bodies and grains, from millions of years since they started making stone tools. And if the Taurus II natives went from first using stone tools to making the equivalent of Folsom points in less time that primates on Earth did, that would imply that they were more intelligent than humans.

I believe that you live in the British Isles, johnnybear. And as I remember, the ancient Greeks and Romans considered the inhabitants of the British Isles in their era to be savage anthropoid killers like you describe the Taurus II natives.

Suppose that thousands of years ago, alien space travellers landed in the British Isles and and were attacked by the primitive natives and used their ray guns to slaughter hundreds of them Statistically that would probably eliminate some of your ancestors before they could repoduce, and thus you, and millions of other people, would never have been born.

 

[Scott Kellogg]

Partial List of tool using animals:

• Chimpanzees.
• Crows.
• Orangutans.
• Elephants.
• Dolphins.
• Sea Otters.
• Gorillas.
• Octopuses.

Personally, I think the right to defend one's self is one of those inalienable rights people talk about.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Personally, I think the right to defend one's self is one of those inalienable rights people talk about.

It is; honest self-preservation--particularly when defending your own life from the threat of death--is the most natural right of a person. In the case of the Galileo's crew, they landed on the planet by accident, sought no conflict with any native population, and were viciously attacked for their troubles. Although Spock wanted to merely scare off the creatures rather than kill them (as the others desired), ultimately, it was an impractical idea, as the creatures were Hell-bent on killing the crew. Some might hand-wring about alleged ethical issues, but at its core, this was a story of self-preservation (and the tension in trying to exercise that right), not a parallel to colonization, base hatred of others (except a case from within--Boma's racism toward Spock--a comment about the less-than-perfect far-future Federation), or any other negative traits in the relationship between the stranded and the native population.

 

[Commishsleer]

Partial List of tool using animals:

• Chimpanzees.
• Crows.
• Orangutans.
• Elephants.
• Dolphins.
• Sea Otters.
• Gorillas.
• Octopuses.

Personally, I think the right to defend one's self is one of those inalienable rights people talk about.

So if aliens came here you'd have no problem with them bloodying a few noses with their superior technology?
You know so we'd cower in the corner and leave them alone.

Anyway I've never heard of a crow fashioning a shield or a spear head.
I got nothing against the Galileo crew defending themselves but arbitrarily killing a lot of natives sounds like a thing Captain Tracey would do

 

[Scott Kellogg]

So if aliens came here you'd have no problem with them bloodying a few noses with their superior technology?
You know so we'd cower in the corner and leave them alone.

Anyway I've never heard of a crow fashioning a shield or a spear head.
I got nothing against the Galileo crew defending themselves but arbitrarily killing a lot of natives sounds like a thing Captain Tracey would do

Where the h** did I say anything like advocating "arbitrarily killing a lot of natives?!?"

You need to read what I wrote:
" the right to defend one's self is one of those inalienable rights people talk about."

.Aliens who came here and were attacked would have the right to defend themselves.
If Aliens showed up and attacked, WE would have a right to defend ourselves.

The key word is "Defend." As in when one of your guys gets a spear in the back you can fight back.

The word "Arbitrary" and the word "Defend" aren't even on the same spectrum.
Better go look 'em up!

 

[Commishsleer]

Where the h** did I say anything like advocating "arbitrarily killing a lot of natives?!?"

You need to read what I wrote:
" the right to defend one's self is one of those inalienable rights people talk about."

.Aliens who came here and were attacked would have the right to defend themselves.
If Aliens showed up and attacked, WE would have a right to defend ourselves.

The key word is "Defend." As in when one of your guys gets a spear in the back you can fight back.

The word "Arbitrary" and the word "Defend" aren't even on the same spectrum.
Better go look 'em up!

So I believe the Galileo 5 (I don't include Scotty in this) were talking about finding some natives and killing them. Not waiting for the natives to come to them but seeking the natives out as they were say chatting at the waterhole and then you know murdering them - not in self-defense. Thats my take on it. Perhaps thats not what they meant. Just my interpretation of it.

 

[Henoch]

As near as I can tell, no natives were killed during the filming of this episode.

 

[Mytran]

So I believe the Galileo 5 (I don't include Scotty in this) were talking about finding some natives and killing them. Not waiting for the natives to come to them but seeking the natives out as they were say chatting at the waterhole and then you know murdering them - not in self-defense. Thats my take on it. Perhaps thats not what they meant. Just my interpretation of it.

This may be the scene you're recalling - not an exact match with what you said, but some of the crew were certainly discussing the option of a targeted pre-emptive strike‎ against the natives:

MCCOY: What do those supersensitive ears make of that, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: Wood rubbing on some kind of leather.
GAETANO: They're getting ready. They'll attack.
BOMA: Not necessarily. It could be a simple tribal rite, assuming a tribal culture.
SPOCK: Not a tribal culture. Their artefacts are too primitive. More likely a loose association of some sort.
MEARS: If we knew more about them
BOMA: We know enough. If they're tribal, they'll have a sense of unity. We can use that.
SPOCK: How, Mister Boma?
BOMA: By hitting them hard. Give them a bloody nose. Make them think twice about attacking us.
GAETANO: Yes, I agree. If we stand by and do nothing, we're just giving them an invitation to come down and slaughter us.
SPOCK: I'm frequently appalled by the low regard you Earthmen have for life.
GAETANO: Well, we're practical about it. I say we hit them before they hit us.
SPOCK: Mister Boma?
BOMA: Absolutely.
SPOCK: Doctor McCoy?
MCCOY: Seems logical to me.
SPOCK: It does, indeed. It seems logical to me, also. But to take life indiscriminately,
GAETANO: The majority.
SPOCK: I am not interested in the opinion of the majority, Mister Gaetano. Components must be weighed. Our danger to ourselves as well as our duties to other life forms, friendly or not. There's a third course.
GAETANO: That could get us killed.
SPOCK: I think not. Doctor McCoy.
MCCOY: Yes.
SPOCK: You and Yeoman Mears return to the ship. Assist Mister Scott in any way possible. We'll be back shortly.
MCCOY: Right.
(Mears and McCoy leave)
SPOCK: Gentlemen, you'll follow my orders to the letter, firing only when so instructed, and at my designated targets.
GAETANO: Now you're talking.
SPOCK: We'll fire to frighten, Mister Gaetano, not to kill.
GAETANO: Oh, for the. You saw what they did to Latimer!
SPOCK: I am in command, Mister Gaetano. The orders and the responsibility will be mine. Follow me.​

 

[Scott Kellogg]

I would point out that the conversation occurred after Latimer was killed.

So, we're Not talking about landing on a planet and just wiping out natives indiscriminately.
We're talking about Self Defense.

I'm also not exactly sure how the phasers were meant to frighten the natives.
They've never seen a phaser before. None of them were hurt by them.
As far as they know the phasers are screeching flashlights.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I'm also not exactly sure how the phasers were meant to frighten the natives. They've never seen a phaser before. None of them were hurt by them.
As far as they know the phasers are screeching flashlights.

I've been bothered by that every viewing, my whole life. Someone should have said that to Spock when he gave the order to waste so much ammo on a light show that meant nothing to the aliens.

 

[MAGolding]

Partial List of tool using animals:

• Chimpanzees.
• Crows.
• Orangutans.
• Elephants.
• Dolphins.
• Sea Otters.
• Gorillas.
• Octopuses.

Personally, I think the right to defend one's self is one of those inalienable rights people talk about.

You left out the most famous tool-using animal on Earth - Homo sapiens.

Thus your choice of tool using animals seems intended to imply that humans are entirel sepaate from the other tool using animals, and that the other tool using animals are not intelligent being or people with rights. And at the present stage of research that is uncertain.

At the present time there is only one species on Earth which is known to be sufficiently intelligent to count as intelligent beings and people, but there are about 90 other species of large mammals which have not been ruled out as being intelligent beings and people, and which should be treated as beings with rights in the meantime. Those are the great apes,, elephants, and cetaceans.

The one external factor visible to outsiders which sets humans apart from other species of tool uing animals on Earth is the advanced technological civilization which humans have been develoing for the last 5,000 or 10,000 years.

And species of genus Homo, closely related to modern humans, have existed for over 2,000,000 years, and Homo sapiens itself has existed for 200,000 or 300,000 years. And for almost all of those 2,000,000 years, there were very lew, if any, externally visible factors which would have led hypothetical alien visitors from outer space to think that members of genus Homo were superior to great apes or elephants or had more rights.

So if you wouldn't want alien visitors from outer space in prehistoric times to hunt Homo sapiens for food or sport or other reasons, you should not want those aliens to hunt great apes or elephants or whales either.

I also point out that Spock describes the spearhead:

SPOCK: (pulling the bloody spear from Latimer's body and examining it) Folsom Point.
BOMA: Sir?
SPOCK: There's a remarkable resemblance to the Folsom Point discovered in 1925, old world calendar, New Mexico, North America. A bit more crude about the shaft, I believe. Not very efficient.

Folsom points were far more advanced than the first stone tools chipped by ape men millionsof years earlier. They were used from about 9500 bC to about 8000 BC, or 11,500 t0 10,000 years ago. Used by people who were essentially identical with modern humans physically and in mental capabilities.

So the Taurus II natives might look like Gigantopithecus, but they probably had equal mental capabilities to members of the species Homo sapiens, and thus were probably as much persons with rights as members of the species Homo sapiens .

(They crouch down behind a rock while Spock stands and listens to that scraping sound)
MCCOY: What do those supersensitive ears make of that, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: Wood rubbing on some kind of leather.
GAETANO: They're getting ready. They'll attack.
BOMA: Not necessarily. It could be a simple tribal rite, assuming a tribal culture.
SPOCK: Not a tribal culture. Their artefacts are too primitive. More likely a loose association of some sort.
MEARS: If we knew more about them
BOMA: We know enough. If they're tribal, they'll have a sense of unity. We can use that.
SPOCK: How, Mister Boma?
BOMA: By hitting them hard. Give them a bloody nose. Make them think twice about attacking us.
GAETANO: Yes, I agree. If we stand by and do nothing, we're just giving them an invitation to come down and slaughter us.

Note that Boma assumes the natives have a tribal culture, and then Spock says that they appear to be a pre tribal culture. And then Boma ignores Spock's correction and assumes that the natives are tribal and comes up with a plan to attack the natives, assuming that the plan will work due to the assumed tribal culture of the natives.

Boma's plan to attack first is based on two assumptions:

1) that members of a tribal culture will retreat in dismay if attacked.

2) that the natives have a tribal culture.

And Spock has already corrected Boma that the natives seem to be non tribal.

So there doesn't seem to be much inellectual justification for Boma's suggestion of a premptive strike against the natives. Especially since just a minute earlier Boma had hopefully suggested that the natives were not planning to attack.

 

[johnnybear]

Spock retained his 'humanity' as it were and refrained from actually killing any of the creatures! Even though they murdered two of his team in the encounter!
JB

 

[Scott Kellogg]

You left out the most famous tool-using animal on Earth - Homo sapiens.

Thus your choice of tool using animals seems intended to imply that humans are entirel sepaate from the other tool using animals, and that the other tool using animals are not intelligent being or people with rights. And at the present stage of research that is uncertain.

No, I simply provided you with a (partial) list of animals that are intelligent enough to use tools.
The above interpretation is purely yours.

If you wish to use tool use as a criteria for determining if an (alien) creature is intelligent enough to deserve legal protection, I'm afraid I think you need to look at the bigger picture.

My wife is a farmer. I work with animals all the time. I can tell you they're far more intelligent than people give credit, and they all have individual personalities. Even the absolute stereotype of an "dumb animal": a flock of sheep. Those are not dumb mindless eating machines, they're a collection of individuals with likes/dislikes/curiosities/preferences/greeds/generosities/friends/enemies/fears. Cows are even smarter than that.

While I've never worked with Elephants, I've heard their intelligence described. You listen to people dealing with Wild Elephants trying to keep them out of their fields and you'll hear them described 'Do not think of them as animals. Think of them as Enemies.' They plan, they plot, they act in coordinated fashion when they're raiding a human granary. (Geez, and you thought rats were hard to deal with!)

Now, despite knowing that animals have personalities, I'm still going to eat steaks, burgers and the occasional lamb stew. They come from someone else's animals. Your ethical food choices are yours.

As for Tribal/non-Tribal, both Spock and Boma are engaging in pure speculation. The sophistication of a tool has nothing to do with if it comes from a tribe or not. Any creature that works together in a coordinated fashion is essentially a tribe. Doesn't matter if they're humans, apes, elephants, hyenas, dogs, wolves or giant anthropoid creatures from another planet. If they're social enough to work together, they're a tribe, and you can't make a further judgment on how tightly knit that tribe is from a stone spear.

As far as the Folsom Point goes, well, I'm not an expert in stone tools, but I recall reading that Spock's identification of the spear as a Folsom Point was in error. The prop they used was actually closer to a Clovis point. So, Spock may sound convincing, but he really didn't know what he was talking about. Spock, with his blind eye toward non-Vulcans, is absolutely the wrong person to be evaluating the psychological nature of these creatures. He barely understands primitive humans as it is!